loyalty (questions/discussion)

[andytaker]

I tried to find this but I couldnt, but can the loyalty stat be used for LIfeTime Contracts. You know like Dan Stone JR Loyal to TCW or something, IF that can happen, woudl it actually mean anything or what? Again I read through, partly skimming so if it mentions about that before Iam sorry. I cant see it being able to work. With Logic, without Database Editing anyway.

[JWideman]

The type of loyalty to companies in Japan is an alien concept to us in the west. It has grounding in the Samurai era. There's absolutely nothing like it here. AJ, Undertaker, etc. aren't loyal to their respective companies, they are just enjoying too good a situation and/or have _personal_ loyalties. Any mod makers using it outside Japan will be making a mistake.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=JWideman;140253]Any mod makers using it outside Japan will be making a mistake.[/QUOTE] Correction: Any mod makers using it outside Japan for REAL WORLD mods will be using the feature in error. Or not, since it's their mod and thus, their prerogative. But the mods made for public consumption probably shouldn't have loyalty relationships outside of Japan. But JWideman is absolutely right. Folks using WWE or TNA workers and claiming loyalties have no idea what they're talking about. WWE and TNA does not develop workers from NOTHING. Japanese promotions do it as a matter of course. Being accepted into NJPW's dojo is akin to being accepted to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Oxford, or Johns Hopkins Medical School. People in these promotions' developmental programs are wrestling's equivalent of Rhodes Scholars. Combine that with the Japanese culture's view and emphasis on honor and you get the loyalty relationship. [B][I]That doesn't exist in the West[/I][/B]. Period. In the US, workers are loyal to Benjamin (Franklin). AJ Styles, as kettley pointed out, turned down a development deal that would've required him to take a pretty big pay cut AND uproot his family and move so he could work for the WWE's 'B' development camp, DSW. That deal was more a case of the WWE not knowing wtf they could've had than AJ's loyalty to TNA. I guarantee you the executives at Panda Energy know exactly when AJ's contract is due to expire and they know what they'll have to do to keep him. Likewise, I'm pretty sure Vince McMahon knows when AJ's contract is due to expire (and to a lesser extent, Christopher Daniels) and what he has planned to do to get him. Jeff Hardy's okay but AJ gives you the wrestling equivalent of "street cred", if you let him work the way he's used to and capable of working. But bottom line is, this feature, whether confined to Japan or not, allows folks to truly create custom scenarios to their liking.

[Lukiep8]

The reason loyalty is so much more different in Japan, then in America, is because of how people are trained in wrestling. In America, some guy will be trained by a lowly wrestler in a garage, and work his way through the indys, to get a spot in development for WWE, where he will then learn their style, and move on from there. In Japan, a guy (or woman) will try out for a promotion, to enter their dojo. They will then train and LIVE in their dojo, before being allowed onto the actual touring roster. They will then work their way up through the promotion. If a person gets big enough he gets SOLID interest from a bigger promotion (mainly new japan, as NOAH doesn't really do those type of things), the wrestler will then ask permission to leave the promotion to better themselves in another. They generally don't just jump ship, unless their are many factors behind it.

[Genadi]

[QUOTE=weirdo_man;140246]Team 3D isn't not going to the WWE because they like TNA, they're not going to WWE because they dislike Vince and what was done to them, more than likely. Team 3D probably isn't too happy about Vince copyrighting everything about their team, and in the rare times that I've watched TNA, I've seen Team 3D insult the WWE several times. Maybe there should also be likes/dislikes for promotions...[/QUOTE] The Dudleys (I refuse to call them Team3D) would go back to WWE in an instant, they've said so numerous times. The most effective and proven way of being rehired by WWE is to badmouth the fed and Vince, it's worked for just about everyone they've rehired. I agree there is no such thing as loyalty to promotions outside of Japan (maybe Mexico to a lesser extent). When it comes to guys like HBK turning down big money offers from WCW, it's obvious as to why.... He is a small guy, was the big fish in a little pond and would've been going to a very big pond. So in effect he would probably say something like "I don't think joining you would be a good career move", which is already a feature

[Captain Kayfabe]

[QUOTE=Remianen;140290]AJ Styles, as kettley pointed out, turned down a development deal that would've required him to take a pretty big pay cut AND uproot his family and move so he could work for the WWE's 'B' development camp, DSW. [/QUOTE] Actually, he would have been assigned to OVW. He was offered that contract years before DSW was formed.

[Akki]

[QUOTE=CarlitoCoool;140303]The Dudleys (I refuse to call them Team3D) would go back to WWE in an instant, they've said so numerous times. The most effective and proven way of being rehired by WWE is to badmouth the fed and Vince, it's worked for just about everyone they've rehired. I agree there is no such thing as loyalty to promotions outside of Japan (maybe Mexico to a lesser extent). When it comes to guys like HBK turning down big money offers from WCW, it's obvious as to why.... He is a small guy, was the big fish in a little pond and would've been going to a very big pond. So in effect he would probably say something like "I don't think joining you would be a good career move", which is already a feature[/QUOTE] He had friends in positions of power over there. Kevin Nash and Scott Hall, to name names. And then their friend, Hollywood Hogan. I'm sure the contract he was offered would've included a creative control clause (just to lure him away even more), but he chose to stay. Maybe the example is rare, but it's there, at least in this case. I think HBK was truly loyal to the WWF (for taking him from being a lowly tag team wrestler to World Champion, most likely). Also, I think I can find at least one example of a worker who decided to go freelance. IIRC, Super Dragon was at one point contacted by the WWE, but chose to remain in the indies. He gave his reason as not wanting to work their style and being tied down to the mainstream, where he probably would have been watered down. No, good ol' SD prefers to throw french fries at fans in the Sweatbox, or at least preffered. PWG had left (that) building. Thankfully for one much closer to me, though I do feel sorry for the guy who lives next to the Sweatbox, who will now have to drive 20 miles to see PWG. His loss, my gain. Anyway... And when have the Duds said that they would come back to WWE in an instant?

[Lukiep8]

People are not fully understanding what loyalty to a promotion is. Loyalty to a promotion, is not someone who hates the WWE, so won't leave their current employer for them. A lot of people are bringing up examples of people refusing to go to the WWE, that is not loyalty, that is just them hating on the WWE. BIG DIFFERENCE people.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Captain Kayfabe;140307]Actually, he would have been assigned to OVW. He was offered that contract years before DSW was formed.[/QUOTE] No, I had the wrong 'B' development territory. It was Heartland (HWA) that he would've been sent to. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJ_Styles"]Source[/URL] [QUOTE]After WCW was purchased by the World Wrestling Federation in March 2001, Styles was left without a job. He returned to NWA Wildside, this time competing for the Wildside Heavyweight Championship, and wrestled several matches for the WWF on WWF Jakked. Styles was offered a developmental deal by the WWF in April 2002. The proffered contract was for $500 USD per week, and required Styles to relocate to Cincinnati, Ohio, where the Heartland Wrestling Association developmental territory was located. He declined to sign, reasoning that he could earn more money on the independent circuit, and that moving would interfere with his wife's college plans.[/QUOTE] So no, OVW has been the 'A' developmental territory for years and everyone's known that. To be offered a chance to join the 'B' territory (whether HWA then or DSW now) is a bit insulting to a worker with actual talent. edit: Folks are going to use this feature anyway they see fit, as is their right. It's a great feature and, like I said before, will go a long way toward letting people create and/or modify mods to their liking. If you want to make Shawn Michaels loyal to WWE, have at it. But that's not anywhere near an example of what the loyalty relationship means in reality. A loyal worker in Japan will often eschew offers from bigger promotions or, as Lukie stated, will ASK PERMISSION to leave. They won't just jump ship. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it common practice for a promotion to approach another promotion and ask permission to perhaps sign away a worker (or at least use them in some capacity)?

[Anubis]

[QUOTE=CarlitoCoool;140303]The Dudleys (I refuse to call them Team3D) would go back to WWE in an instant, they've said so numerous times. The most effective and proven way of being rehired by WWE is to badmouth the fed and Vince, it's worked for just about everyone they've rehired. I agree there is no such thing as loyalty to promotions outside of Japan (maybe Mexico to a lesser extent). When it comes to guys like HBK turning down big money offers from WCW, it's obvious as to why.... He is a small guy, was the big fish in a little pond and would've been going to a very big pond. So in effect he would probably say something like "I don't think joining you would be a good career move", which is already a feature[/QUOTE] Honestly, I think loyalty does exist outside Japan, just not as often. It would be dumb for mod makers to ignore this fact, and even dumber for players to disable loyalty outside Japan. Many have already cited Shawn Michaels, and I'm sure the Undertaker has been a good example as well. There are several people loyal to WWE only who would never jump. I would also almost say Bryan Danielson is loyal to ROH as well, and that AJ Styles is loyal to TNA. So while rare, it does exist. [QUOTE=weirdo_man;140246]Team 3D isn't not going to the WWE because they like TNA, they're not going to WWE because they dislike Vince and what was done to them, more than likely. Team 3D probably isn't too happy about Vince copyrighting everything about their team, and in the rare times that I've watched TNA, I've seen Team 3D insult the WWE several times. Maybe there should also be likes/dislikes for promotions...[/QUOTE] Absolutely! I hope Adam Ryland sees this. There should definitely be an opposite of "loyalty to a promotion". I can actually name names on this one. For one, Sting would never [i]ever[/i] join WWE. They've tried to hire him multiple times, and Sting always gives them the same answer. Sting, out of all the people who have sworn they would never work in WWE, is just about the only one I absolutely believe it. After the way he was used before, I would say Goldberg is definitely another; no way would he ever consider going back to WWE, of that I am certain. Also, in the CornellVerse, doesn't Nemesis fit this as well, at least according to his bio? So while this is very rare, it does happen, and it would be interesting to see that in the game.

[Snabbit888]

Goldberg also said he would never go to WWE to begin with. Money can make a man backtrack on his principles right quick. Also, hasn't Danielson tried to get a deal with WWE several times and they haven't been interested?

[panix04]

[QUOTE=Remianen;140290]and you get the loyalty relationship. [B][I]That doesn't exist in the West[/I][/B]. .[/QUOTE] I think you are making a very irational generalization to say it is awfully rare in the western world would probably be more acurate to lump half of the planet into the same gravy boat is in my opinion foolish, its tantamount to saying all French people wear berets or all Jocks wear kilts or all Millwall fans are agressive (ok, so that last part is true) what im getting at is whilst there is a 'hunt the money' culture in the states it does not mean that every worker there has no loyalty - good examples may be few and far between but i believe they exist, didnt someone on here say that Tommy Dreamer stayed with ECW on no money at all when WWE and WCW came calling?

[Anubis]

[QUOTE=Snabbit888;140327]Goldberg also said he would never go to WWE to begin with. Money can make a man backtrack on his principles right quick. Also, hasn't Danielson tried to get a deal with WWE several times and they haven't been interested?[/QUOTE] First off, wow, never thought I'd see you here! Second, about Goldberg, seeing as he seems to consider his image even more important than money, I doubt he would go back. Third, yes, Danielson did try in the past, but I think he now has complete loyalty for ROH. In fact, IIRC, he's so loyal that he now has ROH's first, one, and only written contract (could be wrong, but that's what I heard). So yeah, I think Danielson has "Loyalty to ROH" for sure.

[Akki]

[QUOTE=Snabbit888;140327]Goldberg also said he would never go to WWE to begin with. Money can make a man backtrack on his principles right quick. Also, hasn't Danielson tried to get a deal with WWE several times and they haven't been interested?[/QUOTE] I believe that Danielson had a develompental deal at some point about 5 or 6 years ago, but they released him. Their loss. I wouldn't make Danielson loyal to RoH, because he works the idies all over the country (though it's getting a bit more sporadic). I don't think Goldberg ever said he wouldn't go to WWE, it's just that he didn't want to go until he felt he was going to be paid what he was worth... Now I don't think he'll go back at all, as he's enjoying a lighter acting and TV schedule, and even going to TNA would be a lot lighter than WWE. Plus, he hated the way he was treated in WWE, and I'm pretty sure he's quite well off now, anyway. He doesn't need WWE, and they really don't need him either.

[Adam Ryland]

I really think some people are failing to grasp this concept unfortunately. :( For those people who still feel that this should be turned on for the US scene, I really recommend you go back and read Lukie's posts so far in this thread, as he has done a good job of explaining how this is something totally engrained in the eastern wrestling culture, and really does not exist in the west. It's two totally different worlds. There is some loyalty in the US, but it's not the same form. In Japan it's about a company being your "home" - that concept does NOT exist in the US, it's just not something that happens. I'd also suggest that Snabbit888 just made a very good point. For every wrestler people claim would "never" do something, there's ten examples of wrestler who broke their promise for a large sum of cash (to take the Sting example, if he is so hell-bent on never working for the WWE then how come he's had several well-documented meetings with Vince? Unless he flies up to Titan Towers purely to say "no" and then fly home again, you'd have to think he is at least listening to offers...in which case he's at least considered working there). The fact is that money is the main motivator in US wrestling, and if you look back at history, you'll see that there are countless incidents to back that up.

[Akki]

Alright, then. When the game comes out, I'm thinking of now leaving it at none for all workers outside of Japan, but leaving the option on. That way, maybe it can develop into something interesting where it does start to happen in the west, but obviously not immediately. Would probably be good as another one of my many simming experiments.

[Genadi]

[QUOTE=Akki;140309]He had friends in positions of power over there. Kevin Nash and Scott Hall, to name names. And then their friend, Hollywood Hogan. I'm sure the contract he was offered would've included a creative control clause (just to lure him away even more), but he chose to stay. Maybe the example is rare, but it's there, at least in this case. I think HBK was truly loyal to the WWF (for taking him from being a lowly tag team wrestler to World Champion, most likely). Also, I think I can find at least one example of a worker who decided to go freelance. IIRC, Super Dragon was at one point contacted by the WWE, but chose to remain in the indies. He gave his reason as not wanting to work their style and being tied down to the mainstream, where he probably would have been watered down. No, good ol' SD prefers to throw french fries at fans in the Sweatbox, or at least preffered. PWG had left (that) building. Thankfully for one much closer to me, though I do feel sorry for the guy who lives next to the Sweatbox, who will now have to drive 20 miles to see PWG. His loss, my gain. Anyway... And when have the Duds said that they would come back to WWE in an instant?[/QUOTE] HBK had the run of the ship in WWE, he knew his spot was secure and knew it wouldn't be in WCW. I don't think Nash, Hall or Hogan for that matter would've influenced how he was booked (at least not for the positive), I know they were very tight but I think HBK knew how good he had it. I've heard many people call Hogan the greatest politician in wrestling but I'd have to argue it's HBK, he is talented dont get me wrong but he has played his cards better then anyone I can think of. He knew better then anyone what would've happened to his career had he jumped ship. Maybe Super Dragon is living his "Japanese Masked Gimmick":D The Duds have said in a few interviews that business is business and they were told by Vince personally they would eventually be asked back when their contracts were not accepted. As I said if you look at history the best way to get back into WWE is to rip on them, there are only 3 wrestlers Vince has refused to ever rehire.....Jarrett, because he held him up for money. Warrior, I don't need to go into it I think we all know, and Savage, the apparent reason there I won't mention on these boards Adam did say there will be a few exceptions obviously and I agree, I don't think there would be more then a few. It's really a case of how the sports are treated in their respective countires. To put it into perspective, WWE may make the "Entertainment" pages if they're lucky in any given respected national newspaper in the US with a big time match or angle. When NJPW runs a dream match, or just recently when Kobashi developed cancer (for real :( ) it garners nationwide media attention and it's pretty much treated and respected as a real sport (anyone whose watched a ***** strong style match would tend to agree). Becasue of the "real" sense of competition I think they develop loyalties to different companies, espaecially when you consider the history the major feds share.

[Adam Ryland]

Incidentally, just wanted to give an example of what could happen if you used this feature in the US, as I think it might help illustrate things. Let's say you do what some people have suggested and make Christopher Daniels loyal to ROH. Let's say you play as the WWE, and offer him bucketloads of cash because you want to make him your big star. And he turns you down because he is loyal to ROH. Can anyone honestly see that happening in reality? In Japan, yes, because I just changed the names in the Hayabusa example. But anyone who thinks that would happen in real life is absolutely crazy in my book!

[Genadi]

Damn straight! You mentioned Sting, I've heard him numerous times saying the [I]only[/I] reason he didn't join WWE (Rock went after him hard for WM19 and Vince many times after that) was the schedule, which incidently is the same reason alot wouldn't want to work WWE. If Paul Heyman can end up working for WWE I think that confirms the fact

[Anubis]

I still say it should at least be left turned on all over the world. While things may be that way [i]right now[/i], who's to say it won't change? In 1980, I imagine no one ever thought the territories would get demolished like they did, but that's what happened. In 1983, no one thought wrestling would get mainstream exposure, and yet it happened. Many people are adament that women will never be accepted as equals to men, but it's only a matter of time. With women like LuFisto and Mariko Yoshida out there, who are better in the ring than [i]anyone[/i] on the WWE payroll, it's only a matter of time before people start noticing. I think the loyalty issue could be the same, and I think it's starting with ROH. Christopher Daniels has never shown pure loyalty for a promotion, but I do believe that Bryan Danielson has and is when it comes to ROH. No amount of money would draw him to WWE, I honestly believe that. Especially American workers with strong ties to Japan (like Danielson), it's more than possible, it's almost a sure bet!

[Thriller]

What about in the UK? Will many characters have loyalty to promotions? I know its not quite like Japan, but its definatly not like the USA where its all about the money, because there isnt much money to be made. I know that lots of wrestlers are loyal to the promotion they trained with or the promotions that give them lots of work, but if someone got an offer from the WWE loyalty definatly wouldnt stop them.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Anubis;140351]but I do believe that Bryan Danielson has and is when it comes to ROH. No amount of money would draw him to WWE, I honestly believe that.[/QUOTE] I'd counter that by pointing out he already has worked for them, fairly recently too, doing tag matches on Velocity. You'd have to say it is very unlikely that someone of his "name value" just happened to do that, unless both sides were checking each other out for potential employment. [QUOTE]I still say it should at least be left turned on all over the world. While things may be that way right now, who's to say it won't change? In 1980, I imagine no one ever thought the territories would get demolished like they did, but that's what happened. In 1983, no one thought wrestling would get mainstream exposure, and yet it happened. Many people are adament that women will never be accepted as equals to men, but it's only a matter of time. With women like LuFisto and Mariko Yoshida out there, who are better in the ring than anyone on the WWE payroll, it's only a matter of time before people start noticing.[/QUOTE] I don't really see your logic at all there? Yes it might by some stretch of the imagination happen sometime in the future (a very long time in the future given that it'd mean an entire cultural shift...) but equally it might not. Turning it on from the start means it is definitely happening, right now. It means anyone who wants an accurate simulation of right now isn't going to get it, on the grounds that there is an unlikely chance that this might happen [I]sometime[/I]. That seems totally counterproductive to me? At sometime in the future there may be a medical breakthrough that means we all stay perfectly healthy 24 hours a day, 7 days a week....should I also code that, and have it turned on from the start? Doesn't exist now, but it might! A ridiculous example I know, but the logic is the same as your argument.

[Anubis]

First off, he hasn't worked a WWE match since 2003. Second, as you yourself said, loyalty doesn't mean "won't work anywhere else", it just means that the place you're loyal to takes priority. Danielson's loyalty has, I believe, developed more within 2005-2006 than from years ago when ROH first started up. As for the chance of things changing, I think it may happen sooner than you think. Wrestling has been known to go through drastic shifts in a short amount of time. I truly believe that ROH could start a trend for this kind of thing to happen, and within the next couple of years at that. If Vince McMahon is out of the picture for one reason or another (hey, he's getting old and has a history of steroid abuse, so it's a real possibility), then it would happen almost instantly I think. Seriously, as of right now, the [i]only[/i] thing standing in the way of change is Vince McMahon. Once he's out of the equation, the business will be on the verge of a huge boom and a drastic change. You may not agree, but I honestly believe that to be the case, so I think turning it on and allowing it to "start developing" (It's not as if loyalty relationships are going to form every day, right?) would fit the most likely near future. 2008-2010 are the deciding years, in my opinion.

[Adam Ryland]

Sorry Anubis, everything you've written so far has struck me as being a combination of wishful thinking or idle speculation (not least because a lot of what you've said I've heard before in the past in relation to other promotions \ workers, and nothing happened then either). Nothing wrong with that of course, but I'm not going to be basing game decisions around it. The bottom line is that if you wish to set your database to put the loyalty feature active outside of Japan you can, but it won't be recommended and won't reflect current reality.

[djlightning]

[QUOTE=NickC13573;140172]Isn't in the US of A. Rhino wont go to WWE because he is loyal to TNA. Team 3D wont go back to the E. Aj wont go to the E either.[/QUOTE] I'm not so sure if that is Loyalty with Rhino and 3D. I would say it's more of a won't work for promotion X. Which by the way is that a possiblility to add into the game Mr. Ryland? I don't know if Japan is that way or not, but I do not there are certain wrestlers who won't work for a specific promotion for one reason or other. I think that would be cool to have right along the lines of these loyalties.