Return Momentum

[Phantom Stranger]

So my big star in Ring of Fire over late 2009 and the first half of 2010 was Petey Barnes, who left mid-2010. Early 2011, I get a short-term deal with Petey brought back in, and have him cut a promo announcing his return to the promotion... and it rates a D- due to his having zero momentum. While with me Petey was regularly getting B- angles, and now, suddenly, he's down to D-. It struck me that perhaps there should be some mechanism to remember former stars - maybe just Promotion Aces, or Promotion Aces and former Main Event title holders - to grant them sufficient momentum that you can actually get return pops on their first appearance.

[Senka Surakei]

I agree, but also, maybe you shoulda hype video'd him for a while, but I also realize short term contract doesn't give you much to work with.

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=Senka Surakei;352108]I agree, but also, maybe you shoulda hype video'd him for a while, but I also realize short term contract doesn't give you much to work with.[/QUOTE] No, it doesn't, which would be my point. By the end of his three-show contract he'd worked six angles and three matches, and was still only around a C momentum despite winning all the matches.

[eayragt]

[QUOTE=Phantom Stranger;352094]... and it rates a D- due to his having zero momentum. [/QUOTE] Just a minor correction, but he didn't have zero momentum, he had no value for momentum. Slightly different - and you may have known the difference, as when I tried typing that, I realised it was very difficult to distinguish the two. Anyway, I'm not sure how good an idea it is - after all, he left several months ago, so a return to your promotion will be rated similarly to him signing on for any other promotion in your area - ie rated mainly on overness (ie rated close to whatever angle / match he debuted in, which will largely depend on his overness). It would seem a bit easy to have a large stash of workers with readymade momentum, as creating that is half the challenge. As the other half is creating the overness, and they'll still have that, and not sure of its use.

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=eayragt;352141]Just a minor correction, but he didn't have zero momentum, he had no value for momentum. Slightly different - and you may have known the difference, as when I tried typing that, I realised it was very difficult to distinguish the two. [/QUOTE] I didn't, as it happens. Regardless, the result was that over those angles and those matches, the result for every one was significantly down compared to a typical angle or match he'd received on his initial run. This would seem to make triumphant comebacks that don't follow the save_us model more or less impossible, as the comeback will just fall flat every time. Personally, I'm of the opinion that a returning star from the same promotion should typically do better than a star of the same magnitude coming in from elsewhere/unemployment, and that's more or less what I'm making a suggestion for here.

[Blackman]

It prolly has to do with ROF as a product as well. You normally don't use angles unless they're hype angles and even then you need a big overness, even if the angle is based on entertainment or mic skills. Anyhow, I consider return overness even a bit broken. One good return match and overness is boosted to A+ instantly, which you can easily milk 'till it's depleted and the worker leaves again. One of the good points to talent trades. :D

[Gnrfan]

[QUOTE=Senka Surakei;352108]I agree, but also, maybe you shoulda hype video'd him for a while, but I also realize short term contract doesn't give you much to work with.[/QUOTE] The whole returning wrestlers and Debuting wrestler needs a overhaul. I mean if you sign a star from another company like say TCW signed Rich Money say and you made him a suprise apperance. that sort of appereance would always be huge for fans. But i agree in my game SWF stole Liberty from me only for him to return to me 18 months later. I decided to hype him, and then had him save RDJ from Tommy Cornell and the Machines and the angle got D+ . . what the hell? World champions and "Fan favourites" should always be welcome back. But if you do that it also has to go the other way . . . if two companies are at war and a wrestler leaves a cult promotion to go to a bigger companies sometimes fans resent that. Maybe a introduction of Fan Respect would be good to go with Respect so you have Respect from the wrestling world and from Fan world

[BurningHamster]

Yeah something needs to be done, although not to have a go GNRFAN but do we REALLY need another stat to keep track of? (no offense, just trying to make a stat update and losing my mind at how many stats I have to add). I was wondering if maybe return/debut momentum couldn't be tied in to overness somehow, say if a particularly well known worker returned or debuted with a company, he would not start with no momentum but perhaps a level of momentum based off his overness, or a minimum amount of momentum automatically generated for each level of overness? Either that or an overall momentum stat which isn't specific to a particular promotion might work. Not sure if my wording makes sense to people, but let me give an example. Late last year I went to a show here in Australia, American Dragon had never worked in this town before but he was on the card and got the biggest pop of the night, people were right into seeing him because even though he was new to the area and to the promotion, his reputation preceeded him. The fact that people knew who he was would be the overness, the fact they wanted to see him based on his reputation even though he'd never been there before would be his momentum.

[Moe Hunter]

It's a simple formula for me. Angle: Person 1 Catalyst Entertainment On Screen Person 2 Subject Not Rated Off Screen Person 1 is typically an authority figure with good entertainment and popularity. Person 2 is ANYONE. Angle rates highly (A* for me with who I use), and Person 2 (debutee) gets A Momentum.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Phantom Stranger;352094]So my big star in Ring of Fire over late 2009 and the first half of 2010 was Petey Barnes, who left mid-2010. Early 2011, I get a short-term deal with Petey brought back in, and have him cut a promo announcing his return to the promotion... and it rates a D- due to his having zero momentum. While with me Petey was regularly getting B- angles, and now, suddenly, he's down to D-. It struck me that perhaps there should be some mechanism to remember former stars - maybe just Promotion Aces, or Promotion Aces and former Main Event title holders - to grant them sufficient momentum that you can actually get return pops on their first appearance.[/QUOTE] yes and no. Look at when Warrior left the WWE after his first run. What happened? Not only did he lose momentum but overness as well for effectively going on "hiatus" after being fired. Warrior comes back to a WM 8 crowd and gets a MASSIVE reation. Thing is, it was not even a year since he had left after Summerslam the previous year. Warrior leaves again. Comes back in 96 and gets huge reaction initially (due to nostalgia) but his overness had tanked. While his momentum was solid, it had still been nowhere near what it was when he was champion. Warrior shows up in WCW with decent momentum but little overness in the long run. By the time Warrior left, his momentum was spent.

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=Michael Wayne;353677]yes and no. Look at when Warrior left the WWE after his first run. What happened? Not only did he lose momentum but overness as well for effectively going on "hiatus" after being fired. Warrior comes back to a WM 8 crowd and gets a MASSIVE reation. Thing is, it was not even a year since he had left after Summerslam the previous year. Warrior leaves again. Comes back in 96 and gets huge reaction initially (due to nostalgia) but his overness had tanked. While his momentum was solid, it had still been nowhere near what it was when he was champion. Warrior shows up in WCW with decent momentum but little overness in the long run. By the time Warrior left, his momentum was spent.[/QUOTE] True, though in the case I'm talking about that overness drop hadn't happened. And, as you say yourself, Warrior's returns all [i]started[/i] with good solid pops. They only failed after being set in motion,

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Moe Hunter;353672]It's a simple formula for me. Angle: Person 1 Catalyst Entertainment On Screen Person 2 Subject Not Rated Off Screen Person 1 is typically an authority figure with good entertainment and popularity. Person 2 is ANYONE. Angle rates highly (A* for me with who I use), and Person 2 (debutee) gets A Momentum.[/QUOTE] Moe, stop talking sense. It's annoying. :p

[foolinc]

[QUOTE=Moe Hunter;353672]It's a simple formula for me. Angle: Person 1 Catalyst Entertainment On Screen Person 2 Subject Not Rated Off Screen Person 1 is typically an authority figure with good entertainment and popularity. Person 2 is ANYONE. Angle rates highly (A* for me with who I use), and Person 2 (debutee) gets A Momentum.[/QUOTE] On a lower level, I've had lots of success building instant momentum this way with small promotions. The Authority Figure buildup, is an extremely good (not to mention realistic) way of giving people momentum. Hell, I was able to get people to think Dusty Bin was going to be special....that is, before he got into the ring.

[Gnrfan]

[QUOTE=Moe Hunter;353672]It's a simple formula for me. Angle: Person 1 Catalyst Entertainment On Screen Person 2 Subject Not Rated Off Screen Person 1 is typically an authority figure with good entertainment and popularity. Person 2 is ANYONE. Angle rates highly (A* for me with who I use), and Person 2 (debutee) gets A Momentum.[/QUOTE] Thats great. Unless you want someone to return as a suprise as a run in or something other than a interview. Or my favourite when someone issues a open challenge and a old great or champion returns to except. [QUOTE=BurningHamster;353112]Yeah something needs to be done, although not to have a go GNRFAN but do we REALLY need another stat to keep track of? (no offense, just trying to make a stat update and losing my mind at how many stats I have to add). [/QUOTE] No i agree theres enough already. I just this is really a huge area which needs improvement. If another stat fixes it, I'll manage.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=foolinc;353749]On a lower level, I've had lots of success building instant momentum this way with small promotions. The Authority Figure buildup, is an extremely good (not to mention realistic) way of giving people momentum. Hell, I was able to get people to think Dusty Bin was going to be special....that is, before he got into the ring.[/QUOTE] More recently, Chris Jericho's re-debut was received very well. Then again, they didn't just bring him out without any kind of buildup, did they?

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Phantom Stranger;353684]True, though in the case I'm talking about that overness drop hadn't happened. And, as you say yourself, Warrior's returns all [i]started[/i] with good solid pops. They only failed after being set in motion,[/QUOTE] what I'm saying is, the more times a worker comes back to your promotion, their momentum should be lower. Same should be true if they've been gone from your promotion too long.

[mad5226]

Maybe...but define "Too Long" Look at Jericho, he was gone for awhile came back to a huge pop. My guess is if The Rock didn't come back for another 2 or even 3 years his return would still be HUGE

[eayragt]

[QUOTE=mad5226;353939]Maybe...but define "Too Long" Look at Jericho, he was gone for awhile came back to a huge pop. My guess is if The Rock didn't come back for another 2 or even 3 years his return would still be HUGE[/QUOTE] True, but the main reason is that he's incredibly over. Not only, but main.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=mad5226;353939]Maybe...but define "Too Long" Look at Jericho, he was gone for awhile came back to a huge pop. My guess is if The Rock didn't come back for another 2 or even 3 years his return would still be HUGE[/QUOTE] The bulk of online wrestling posters have already turned against Jericho. Not really a good example.

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=Michael Wayne;354084]The bulk of online wrestling posters have already turned against Jericho. Not really a good example.[/QUOTE] Online wrestling poster = small sample that often doesn't seem to match the majority of fans. Bulk of posters = smaller sample. I wouldn't call that particularly good evidence, and most of what I've seen in terms of frustration I'd put down to his booking - a feud against a retired announcer? Well, uh... if you insist...

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=Michael Wayne;353849]what I'm saying is, the more times a worker comes back to your promotion, their momentum should be lower. Same should be true if they've been gone from your promotion too long.[/QUOTE] First time back, gone for seven months, champion up until two days before he left. In the case that prompted me to ask, that is. That said, you've given me the bare bones of an idea for a downside. --- UPSIDE: Former star returns gain an immediate momentum boost, based on the length of time they were with you before, their current overness, and the momentum when they left. DOWNSIDE 1: Momentum boost reduced by multiple returns within, say, a five-year period, and capped at their momentum when they left (so you have a bad run, your return will not be looked for. Go out champ, or just barely not, and the fans are happy to see you.) DOWNSIDE 2: Based to an extent on the Jericho idea; if the ratings the wrestler pulls in go below a certain threshold in the first, say, five shows, momentum doesn't just fall to where it would be according to the rating - it crashes. Mess up the return and the guy's dead in the water.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=Phantom Stranger;354490]Online wrestling poster = small sample that often doesn't seem to match the majority of fans. Bulk of posters = smaller sample. I wouldn't call that particularly good evidence, and most of what I've seen in terms of frustration I'd put down to his booking - a feud against a retired announcer? Well, uh... if you insist...[/QUOTE] maybe for 1993. But this is the information age. There's thousands of wrestling sites and millions of fans. Now if you say there's a small percentage of "smarks" then yes, I agree. There aren't very many people with actual inside knowledge and resources. There is no other group. Everyone else are marks. However there's a good amount of people who discuss it on various boards and watch it from home. If what you said were true, a wrestler who hasn't even debuted yet by the name of "Kofi Kingston" wouldn't be one of the most searched people on the internet. Just because people sit behind a computer arguing over who knows the most, it doesn't make them a "smark" or a "smart-mark". They're marks like everyone else is. They're marks like the ones who go to the events, and marks who discuss it at school. And with their neighbor, and on the internet. Discussing wrestling on the internet does not make you a smart-mark. That's like saying you know everything there is to know about your fav football team, and thus you're some special fan. You're still a fan. You're no different than anyone else. You still hoot and holler at the game, paint yourself, wear your team colors and buy the merchandise. And most of all, you know no one of real importance to the goings on of the team. You're a mark.