Journal discussion thread

[lazorbeak]

[QUOTE=gazwefc83;413173]it just seems people rnt gonna make much effort in there first few match in order to increase the rating when personly i try and book A grade match every show, surely the fans would rather 6 great matchs between 2 people than 6 medium matchs contain different wrestlers! Quality over quantity!!!![/QUOTE] But why? This goes against logic- why would you push your roster to the limit on free TV, and expect anyone to pay to see a big blow-off event? The lesson here might be that you [I]shouldn't[/I] try to push every upper midcard match into some kind of A rated dram match, because how do you top that, when you gave it away on TV? And no, fans wouldn't want to watch the same match six times, because it gets repetitive and boring, and every match the expectations would be raised. Just think about how feuds are done in ANY promotion- it's not just "wrestler x vs. wrestler y. Next week: wrestler x vs. wrestler y. And the big pay-off: wrestler x vs. wrestler y!" It's an artificial measure that forces [I]variety[/I]. The horror!

[crayon]

I agree that if televised events would make a difference from house shows, because of the different eyeballs you'd have on your people, but it also seems like a few people aren't actually reading (or thinking) it through in the first place. Such as the penalization is NOT a certainty, which people seem to be pesimestically assuming to happen. Also road agent notes should be able to be used to keep guys from not blowing their wads in the first three matches they put on together, which makes your Best of X series easier.

[gazwefc83]

but when playing most real world mods with the WWF or WWE anything less than an A grade show hurts your popularity so you have to push

[Derek B]

I think people have forgotten a few TEW07 features that will certainly help.. 1. Match types, certain ones have high prestige and add to the match rating. That's why feuds tend to be finished with big gimmick matches, cos you've built UP to the best match and then move people on to new things. 2. A question actually... I assume that if you repeat matches that have been seen in other promotions there are no penalties, as it wasn't with your promotion? 3. Chemistry can be tested in house shows, so those of you worrying about that can check it in there like you were intended to. :) And I had more ideas but I've forgotten what they are. I love the way Adam has executed this feature because now you can't just stick to the same feud over and over again. I see a lot of people complaining about stuff and wanting to make this optional... but honestly, until you see the entire game in action you are all really worrying about nothing. It's all great. :D

[Derek B]

[QUOTE=gazwefc83;413189]but when playing most real world mods with the WWF or WWE anything less than an A grade show hurts your popularity so you have to push[/QUOTE] That's a problem with the mod though to be honest. While WWE is well known that ISN'T the same as being popular. If I were making a real world mod I'd have WWE's popularity at around B across the US and barely high enough elsewhere to be classed as Global. Mind you, knowing how TEW works putting on high shows with WWE shouldn't be as difficult. Now that angles count more towards show ratings even the CPU can put on high rated shows with entertainment based promotions, which means you should be more than capable of it too. *sigh* The problem with some people is that they can't see the big picture... mind you, that's easy to say when you're testing the game. :)

[sebsplex]

[QUOTE=gazwefc83;413189]but when playing most real world mods with the WWF or WWE anything less than an A grade show hurts your popularity so you have to push[/QUOTE] And? That doesn't mean you have to book HHH vs Cena about 10 times with no variation and no point of escalation in the feud. And since when does [B]every[/B] show have to increase your popularity? Honestly, it's a feature that requires the player to put some thought into their booking and more effort into balancing their shows... I may be missing the point where to some people this is a cardinal sin. If the game was actively blocking you from repeating matches, perhaps I could understand more of the negativity, but it's not. Instead, it's no longer handsomely rewarding unspired booking that's directed towards a quick ratings score. If losing popularity bothers some people that much, just open the ingame editior after the show and adjust your popularity manually. It hardly seems like cheating if you're expecting your promotion to grow on mindless repetitive booking anyway.

[1PWfan]

The answer to this one is simple: minions. For instance, in my old NYCW game, I had a feud going between Steve Flash and Honest Frank. It started with Frank winning a match against Roderick Remus to get a shot at Steve's title. Frank and Flash then had a match (month 1), which Flash won bia DQ. This led to a rematch at the next show (month 2) which Frank won via cheating. At the next show (month 3), I ran a triple threat with Roddy Remus in there, before having a repeat singles match (month 4). At that show I introduced Cameron Vessey as Frank's minion, and ran him vs. Flash at the next show (month 5). The next month (month 6) neither guy featured on the show, leaving me free to repeat the singles match the following month (although in actual fact I ran a tag match, Flash/Remus vs. Frank/Vessey). As you can see, through running monthly shows and introducing minions and sidekicks to pad out the story, I was able to pad out a storyline for 6 months without repeating the match more than three times.

[Irish Wolf]

[QUOTE=lazorbeak;413181]But why? This goes against logic- why would you push your roster to the limit on free TV, and expect anyone to pay to see a big blow-off event? The lesson here might be that you [I]shouldn't[/I] try to push every upper midcard match into some kind of A rated dram match, because how do you top that, when you gave it away on TV?[/QUOTE] I don't give anything away on TV as I'm not on TV for small feds. Not only am I not on weekly TV I don't hold my shows in the same region each week generally on a rotation of three. Now that I'm thinking about another reason this is upsetting me is that the people defending it are all making assumptions about TV shows and consistent audiences. What happens to regional touring feds with three shows a week and a medium sized roster (like say 5SSW) don't you risk putting on the same matches over and over again. In a six month period if the AI runs 5SSW it will put on 72 shows and the likelihood of repeated 1 vs 1 matches are high. But they aren't televised and the AI seems to go through a lot of regions so the same eyes may never see the same match twice. [QUOTE=lazorbeak;413181]And no, fans wouldn't want to watch the same match six times, because it gets repetitive and boring, and every match the expectations would be raised. Just think about how feuds are done in [B]ANY promotion[/B]- it's not just "wrestler x vs. wrestler y. Next week: wrestler x vs. wrestler y. And the big pay-off: wrestler x vs. wrestler y!" It's an artificial measure that forces [I]variety[/I]. The horror![/QUOTE] My problem with this statement is the bolded. With any promotion really. And you've seen every promotion in the world to know that this is a problem with all of them. I agree that I probably wouldn't want to see the same match four weeks in a row and then at a PPV unless the matches are great. But I'm saying worker X and Y meet once to start the feud on week one and then they meet only one on one at the big events for the next six months. But it means that after the second meeting at a big event I starting having the chance that the crowd is going to be bored.

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=lazorbeak;413159]remember HHH and HBK's yawner in the cell?[/QUOTE] they've milked that option so many times that even if they wanted to do it now, fans would be like *yawn* "how many times did we see THIS match". It's one thing to have Andre/Hogan work with each other straight for a year when they're doing house shows. It's another to have them work for a year on tv and ppv. And the problem that I had when the person who brought this up used Hogan/Andre as an example to defend his argument about the 07 booking, is that the whole style back then was different than it is now. Back then you had people working with the same guys not only to help the other gain popularity, or to test out feuds, but also to find chemistry. Warrior worked almost nightly with Andre during the 80's to help build Warrior in front of the crowds.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE]What happens to regional touring feds with three shows a week and a medium sized roster (like say 5SSW) don't you risk putting on the same matches over and over again. In a six month period if the AI runs 5SSW it will put on 72 shows and the likelihood of repeated 1 vs 1 matches are high. But they aren't televised and the AI seems to go through a lot of regions so the same eyes may never see the same match twice.[/QUOTE] The limits are more relaxed for touring promotions, and as I stated earlier, the smaller the promotion the less this feature comes into play. [QUOTE]My problem with this statement is the bolded. With any promotion really. And you've seen every promotion in the world to know that this is a problem with all of them. I agree that I probably wouldn't want to see the same match four weeks in a row and then at a PPV unless the matches are great. But I'm saying worker X and Y meet once to start the feud on week one and then they meet only one on one at the big events for the next six months. But it means that after the second meeting at a big event I starting having the chance that the crowd is going to be bored.[/QUOTE] I agree with lazorbeak - I haven't seen every promotion in the world, but I have seen a vast amount of wrestling, and I'm struggling to think of a single example where the same match gets done repeatedly with no variation. Dreamer Raven and Flair Steamboat were the too closest analogies I could come up with, and both of them can be booked under this system. If someone can come up with an example I'm all ears, but at the moment my twenty+ years of wrestling knowledge is making me fairly confident that this is a feature that uses an element of booking which is used throughout wrestling.

[lazorbeak]

[QUOTE=Apupunchau@optonline;413207]I don't give anything away on TV as I'm not on TV for small feds. Not only am I not on weekly TV I don't hold my shows in the same region each week generally on a rotation of three. Now that I'm thinking about another reason this is upsetting me is that the people defending it are all making assumptions about TV shows and consistent audiences. What happens to regional touring feds with three shows a week and a medium sized roster (like say 5SSW) don't you risk putting on the same matches over and over again. In a six month period if the AI runs 5SSW it will put on 72 shows and the likelihood of repeated 1 vs 1 matches are high. But they aren't televised and the AI seems to go through a lot of regions so the same eyes may never see the same match twice.[/quote] Look at what the three "traps" are: there's a great chance that a regional touring promotion wouldn't have this as a serious problem even if they repeated the same match ten times in a six month period. Even if there was some punishment, we have no idea what kind of effect there is, and I don't see how you can complain about it yet. Adam has already hinted that the effects aren't going to be as great on regional feds, which makes sense, since they're not reaching as large an audience. [quote]My problem with this statement is the bolded. With any promotion really. And you've seen every promotion in the world to know that this is a problem with all of them.[/quote] Should I even bother responding to such absurdity? I have to see every wrestling promotion ever to understand a fundamental concept: that people are unwilling to pay money to watch the same thing, without any change or improvement, over and over again? Maybe in Rand McNally, where hamburgers eat people, everything is reversed, but I think I've got enough of a grasp of the wrestling world to know this feature does nothing but add realism and punish laziness. [quote]I agree that I probably wouldn't want to see the same match four weeks in a row and then at a PPV unless the matches are great. But I'm saying worker X and Y meet once to start the feud on week one and then they meet only one on one at the big events for the next six months. But it means that after the second meeting at a big event I starting having the chance that the crowd is going to be bored.[/QUOTE] Yes, you start having the chance- it's not a guarantee, and it's not earth shattering (based on what Adam said earlier), but it encourages you to raise the stakes with each big match- something you should be doing as a booker anyway!

[mvargus]

[QUOTE=Apupunchau@optonline;413207]I don't give anything away on TV as I'm not on TV for small feds. Not only am I not on weekly TV I don't hold my shows in the same region each week generally on a rotation of three. Now that I'm thinking about another reason this is upsetting me is that the people defending it are all making assumptions about TV shows and consistent audiences. What happens to regional touring feds with three shows a week and a medium sized roster (like say 5SSW) don't you risk putting on the same matches over and over again. In a six month period if the AI runs 5SSW it will put on 72 shows and the likelihood of repeated 1 vs 1 matches are high. But they aren't televised and the AI seems to go through a lot of regions so the same eyes may never see the same match twice.[/QUOTE] And most of those touring federations sign up 5-12 midcard fillers each tour in order to expand their roster and allow more variety in their shows. Admittedly 5SSW will probably struggle with this new rule mostly because they are weighed down at the main event level with their big 3 stars who usually trade the belt back and forth until they retire. But that should just influence a good booker to expand the main event and the match variety. 5SSW has a deep roster with many good wrestlers. it would do them no harm to accept a bit lower individual match rating by having their stars beating mid-carders while getting those midcarders some seasoning which will help them improve. And again, you don't HAVE to repeat. 5SSW has 3 star main eventers to start. that's 3 different 1v1 combinations (9 matches) 3 different 1v2 combinations (9 matches) triangle match opportunity (3 matches) unlimited tag pairing with midcard/upper midcard matches with upper midcard/midcard occasional nights off. And in 72 shows, you might only get 21 with top "main event" fights, but the other 51 can easily be filled with additional matches. Also you can avoid the problem with good build ups. have the 4th match be a ladder, or cage, or barbed wire match up to excite the crowd. its already been posted that the 3 "traps" are avoidable as long as the match quality stays above the "average".

[Eisen-verse]

I look forward to waking up and reading the new addition of the day and this one is certainly something that is a great addition to the game. It seems like some people play this game with the idea of only getting good ratings and that's about it. So when they find a good match-up they milk it to death so that the ratings always stay high. While that's a good approach if you're only looking for "great rated matches"... For me I've always tried to find new ways to book a feud. Build it up and actually have them wrestle eachother as little as possible so once the PPV rolls around it's an all out brawl that everyone wants to see. Under this new addition that will push me, and then some, to find new ways to build up a storyline and never fall back on the whole "Well these two work well together and I need a good rating" kind of style of booking. Great addition Adam. Keep it all coming! I'm loving the evolution this game has taken on so far. It should be a challenge more so than something "fun" to pick up.

[hakk99]

This is excellent. I think six months is the perfect amount of time, though I wouldn't mind if it was a year. Adam's absolutely right that I can't think of a single example of two wrestlers facing off more than three times without a clear escalation in quality. I assume this means the AI will be booking quite differently. Right now the AI tends to have the same main event over and over again for a few months then start a new feud. Now, especially with AI angles, it will be quite interesting to read the results of other shows. Now the National Battles should be quite interesting. Do you keep milking that great chemistry match up so that you win this month's battle or do you try something new to avoid any penalty? This feature = all good

[Irish Wolf]

[QUOTE=mvargus;413219]And again, you don't HAVE to repeat. 5SSW has 3 star main eventers to start. that's 3 different 1v1 combinations (9 matches) 3 different 1v2 combinations (9 matches) triangle match opportunity (3 matches) unlimited tag pairing with midcard/upper midcard matches with upper midcard/midcard occasional nights off. And in 72 shows, you might only get 21 with top "main event" fights, but the other 51 can easily be filled with additional matches. Also you can avoid the problem with good build ups. have the 4th match be a ladder, or cage, or barbed wire match up to excite the crowd. its already been posted that the 3 "traps" are avoidable as long as the match quality stays above the "average".[/QUOTE] 5SSW's current product doesn't allow for triangle or four way matches (through the AI at least I know I can change that as a player but the AI needs to conform to the same rules so I'm gonna base it on that) and also although their is no slider bar for it I haven't seen them run a 1 v 2 handicap match either. Can't really see what kind of matches the AI runs but usually I build up to not so gimmicky matches for 5SSW. Last Woman Standing, Classic Cage, 2/3 falls, Iron Man and such. thinking about it does the AI ever run matches other than standard 1 v1, 2 v 2 ect.. will it run a Steel Cage or a Barbed Wire match? And if it does how does it decide when and what type of match to run? In other words can the AI successully make these big builds to more prestigious matches? Although now that I'm thinking about it I can see how this may not be a big issue with a touring fed that has time off between tours so maybe that was a bad example.

[Jaded]

Adam, I seem to have misread this judging by people's reactions. Can you put on A vs B in a normal singles match, A vs B in another normal singles match, A vs B in a cage match, and A vs B in a HitC match all in the space of a few weeks without being penalised? I read it as if you could but am now unsure.

[Rams]

Out of curiosity I ran through a couple of my old WWE games (Both over 2 years) and I could only find one case of going over this new restriction (seven match series). I guess 6 months just sounds much longer then it really is in game terms and if you try to book more realistically you will naturally just avoid this. Also I'll concede that I probably wasn't giving new players enough credit. I know we will see complaints and questions from them but I guess that could be solved by teaching them how to book correctly.

[cps_1908]

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by Adam Ryland. I have seen a vast amount of wrestling, and I'm struggling to think of a single example where the same match gets done repeatedly with no variation.[/QUOTE] The Rock v Mick Foley in 1998 / 1999 November Survivor Series 98 The Rock v Mankind December Armeggedon 98 The Rock v Mankind December Raw - The Rock v Mankind January Royal Rumble 09 - The Rock v Mankind - I quit match. January Half Time Heat - The Rock v Mankind - Empty Arena Match. February - Valentines Day Massacre - The Rock v Mankind - Last Man Standing March - Raw - The Rock v Mankind - Ladder Match 7 single matchs in 4 months.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Jaded;413244]Can you put on A vs B in a normal singles match, A vs B in another normal singles match, A vs B in a cage match, and A vs B in a HitC match all in the space of a few weeks without being penalised? I read it as if you could but am now unsure.[/QUOTE] That would incur a penalty as it's four 1 vs 1 matches.

[sebsplex]

[QUOTE=cps_1900;413247]The Rock v Mick Foley in 1998 / 1999 November Survivor Series 98 The Rock v Mankind December Armeggedon 98 The Rock v Mankind December Raw - The Rock v Mankind January Royal Rumble 09 - The Rock v Mankind - I quit match. January Half Time Heat - The Rock v Mankind - Empty Arena Match. February - Valentines Day Massacre - The Rock v Mankind - Last Man Standing March - Raw - The Rock v Mankind - Ladder Match 7 single matchs in 4 months.[/QUOTE] The feature only penalises you if the matches change in quality and rating as explained in the journal post, not just for booking the same match. If you play the system correctly, you could book the same pairing 9 times in 4 months, but that's something that will now require more thought and effort the longer you push the feud.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=cps_1900;413247]The Rock v Mick Foley in 1998 / 1999 November Survivor Series 98 The Rock v Mankind December Armeggedon 98 The Rock v Mankind December Raw - The Rock v Mankind January Royal Rumble 09 - The Rock v Mankind - I quit match. January Half Time Heat - The Rock v Mankind - Empty Arena Match. February - Valentines Day Massacre - The Rock v Mankind - Last Man Standing March - Raw - The Rock v Mankind - Ladder Match 7 single matchs in 4 months.[/QUOTE] I was talking more of a long-term deal, which is why Dreamer\Raven and Flair\Steamboat were referenced. There are several short term examples like the one above, but few that break the system - the latter few Rock\Mankind matches [I]did[/I] suffer from the burnout of being repetitive and having lower quality, so your example just backs up that the feature is realistic. EDIT - Actually one did come to me just now; Dynamite vs. Tiger Mask. But even then, it was broken up by Dynamite going back and forth from tour!

[mvargus]

[QUOTE=cps_1900;413247]The Rock v Mick Foley in 1998 / 1999 November Survivor Series 98 The Rock v Mankind December Armeggedon 98 The Rock v Mankind December Raw - The Rock v Mankind January Royal Rumble 09 - The Rock v Mankind - I quit match. January Half Time Heat - The Rock v Mankind - Empty Arena Match. February - Valentines Day Massacre - The Rock v Mankind - Last Man Standing March - Raw - The Rock v Mankind - Ladder Match 7 single matchs in 4 months.[/QUOTE] Ah, but look at how the penalties work. Trap 1: worst match after 3 or more Trap 2: match below average rating after 3 or more Trap 3: slowing increasing average rating after 3 or more so you have a 7 match series (rock v mankind) November Survivor Series 98 The Rock v Mankind (no special match at PPV - likely average rating) December Armeggedon 98 The Rock v Mankind (no special match at PPV - likely average rating) December Raw - The Rock v Mankind (3rd match, no special, at weekly TV show, likely down slightly, all traps might get hit here) January Royal Rumble 09 - The Rock v Mankind - I quit match. (its an I Quit match at the Rumble, with hype, likely above the Raw match and above the average, no penalty likely) January Half Time Heat - The Rock v Mankind - Empty Arena Match. (special event, Empty Arena Match, lots of hype, for Super Bowl, likely again above the Raw match and above the average, no penalty likely.) February - Valentines Day Massacre - The Rock v Mankind - Last Man Standing (Last Man Standing Match, PPV, lots of hype. might struggle to be above average, but won't be the worst, slight penalty possible. trap 3) March - Raw - The Rock v Mankind - Ladder Match (well its at Raw and its only a ladder match, won't be worst, but likely below average especially as its the 7th in the series, I'd expect this one to get penalized for hitting both trap 2 and trap 3.) And that is why the WWE doesn't have its main eventers do long series of 1v1 matches anymore. You can see here that they kept raising the bar for how exotic the match was going to be in the PPVs because the fans wouldn't accept anything less. Mostly likely the ladder match at Raw was to cleanly end the feud and allow both wrestlers to move to new storylines, and would have been skipped if the booking team had any alternate idea. We also don't have a record of the promo's, hype, run-ins and other events surrounding these meetings. Rock was/is a master at cutting promos and I would be very unsurprised to find that hte advanced booking for these events came with huge levels of hype to excite the crowd before they entered the arena. Wit that excitement they are more likely to push the match ratings even higher and keep the matches above the average rating. Its a good example to show that the WWE did 10 years ago have 2 wrestlers go at it 1v1 7 times in 4 months, but it doesn't prove that Adam's new feature is bad.

[Jaded]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;413250]That would incur a penalty as it's four 1 vs 1 matches.[/QUOTE] Thanks for clearing that up for me Adam, not sure why I found it confusing earlier! I really like the feature and think it'll add a welcome challenge, although I can see the arguments of others to some extent.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;413057] I think more credit should be given to new players. This really isn't a highly complex feature - it boils down to little more than "don't be lazy with your booking" - and is backed up with on-screen notes to that effect. Unless they're either really dumb or really lazy I can't see it being a difficult concept to learn quickly![/QUOTE] Fair enough, Adam. But I think it should be kept in mind that a key word in the sentence you quoted is "could". We don't know what experience with management sims amd the like folks might be coming up. For an old hand of the genre, you may be right. If it seems like I'm over-conservative on this basis at times it just a matter I don't know what the newbies will or won't know coming in. So I tend to want to minimize the variables that could confound them. After all, it's the new blood that keeps the franchises vital.

[Dolfanar]

I predict this will cause quite a few headaches... particularly with small promotions. With WWE and its billions of great workers it isn't such a problem. With smaller feds that have to rely on one or two top wrestlers... this could get ugly.