Wrestlers Turning by Crowd

[Carl1000000]

Back when Steve Austin first became Stone Cold he was a heel. He got so over with th crowd that the WWE were pretty much forced to turn him face. When The Rock first came to the WWF and was pushed as a face, the crowd turne don him, chanting "die Rocy, die". WWF was forced to turn him heel. It would be grewat if on TEW 2008 these cases were implemented. Maybe in those emails it could say "John Cena was booed so badly in the last few shows, maybe you should turn him heel". It would be great because just because a heel has an A*, it doesnt mean the crowd love him so much they cheer for him. It just means he's a great heel, like HHH was in evolution. He wasn't cheered, but his popularity would probably be A*. But with Steve Austin, when he was cheered as a heel tand then turned into a face, he was given a big boost by it. It could impact the game in a few ways. If a heel who's being cheered is fighting a face, the face may lose momentum in the match because the crowd would be agaisnt them even though they're a face. A face who's booed would constantly lose momentum, until a heel turn, where his boost from the turn would be massive. I think it would add a bit more depth to the game and the crowd interaction would add more atmosphere as though you're putting on shows for a real crowd.

[Hurrikane]

I've suggested this before, especially in today's wrestling climate, it would be a great feature.

[Self]

I'm all for having this kind of element in the game. However, I think in terms of game mechanics, most of it is there already. It just needs to be conveyed better on a visual level. A lot of this is in Gimmick Ratings. The Rock for example started with a Wholesome gimmick, when in hindsight we know that he sucks with that type of gimmick, hence a low gimmick rating, hence the hatred from the fans. It's there, just not being told to you in a simple "[I]This is what is happening[/I]" way. At the moment we look at a segment, and we get a Rating. "[I]This is how good this match/angle was[/I]". That's fine I guess, but I want more information. I want to be told stuff that I would know if I was watching this match on a monitor backstage. I want to 'hear' the reactions of the crowd, how loud and how positively they respond to each participant. I'm sure all of this stuff is already there, in the mathematics, but it's not in front of me when it matters, when I'm 'watching' the show. I'm pretty sure Crowd Reaction is Momentum, but I can only see that before and after the show, not during. This distances me from the show I'm trying to experience. Maybe in the future, I'd love a more complicated mechanic where you have to push faces/heels differently to get the desired reaction, and if some heels get too over, it triggers their cheering section, but for now I'm fine with the game works. I'd just like the presentation of the information to show a few different things.

[Carl1000000]

A crowd level meter would be great lol, but I suppose the ratings of the segments are determined by how much the crowd liked it. I understand the poor gimick rating may equal to a face being booed. But a poor gimmick rating wouldn't result in a heel being cheered.

[Self]

[QUOTE=Carl1000000;422972]I understand the poor gimick rating may equal to a face being booed. But a poor gimmick rating wouldn't result in a heel being cheered.[/QUOTE] Good point.

[D16NJD16]

if this goes in it needs to be rare

[RaptorRobertRage]

Another cool idea would be to make "crowd reactions" at shows. Something like poor crowd reactions (Anaheim WWE incident, anyone?) or having the crowd be downright beligerant or spiteful towards people for some reason which could effect the quality of the match (like the last match Brock Lesnar had in the WWE against Goldburg when they practically got booed off the stage).

[D-Lyrium]

I, for one, am against this feature. I hate the notion of fans 'turning' wrestlers. If the fans are cheering for a heel, it doesn't mean he's becoming popular. It means he's either being booked badly, is crap at his job, or both. Austin and Eddie Guerrero are possible exceptions, but you need exceptions to prove the rule ¬_¬

[Carl1000000]

Steve Austin was cheered as a heel and was great at playing the heel. He was booked well and the crowd ended up liking him. John Cena was pushed as a heel originally, he played that well, but the crowd caught on. It wasn't because he was bad at it, or that he was booked badly, it simply because people wanted to cheer him (complete opposite of today obviously). Fact is, it does happen sometimes. It's probably happen more and more as fans seem to be a little to wise for their boots these days. It doesn't happen all the time and should only happen rarely, but it's someting that occured with two of the biggest wrestling stars in the buisness in The Rock and Steve Austin.

[Gigas]

If a wrestler is being booked badly and sucks the fans wont cheer him whether hes a face or heel. Also, being booed as a face doesnt necessarily mean you'll make a good heel. It could just be XPac heat. I also dont really see the point in adding it to the game. Kurt Angle was 400 times better as a heel, and he was still cheered. Fans booed when he was booked to lose. Christian, Jericho come to mind as well. Kane but thats more gimmick than anything else.

[Zakarl]

I am all for a feature like this, since those brilliant organic crowd reactions are both a blessing and a curse for a booker. For example, just look at Austin's heel turn in '01: WWF did everything they could to try and get the fans on him, and, for the most part it simply did not work for a multitude of reasons. If you're playing this idea in [i]TEW[/i], do you stick to your guns and try to make him as [b]EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIIL![/b] as possible or do you scrap the idea? A balancing effect to this idea could be that if a booed face finally does turn heel ([i]depending on how well it is executed[/i]) they could actually [b]LOSE[/b] momentum if the turn somehow doesn't go over well and the crowd, instead of turning on them, just develops apathy. Does anyone have a real-life instance of this example? I can't really think of one... [quote="D-Lyrium"]I, for one, am against this feature. I hate the notion of fans 'turning' wrestlers.[/quote] Vinnie Mac, is that you? :p

[thedraem41]

I think this would be a great feature for Sports Entertainment type promotions in the game, it's not something that happens a lot. But, when it does it is noticeable.

[mvargus]

[QUOTE=RaptorRobertRage;423257]Another cool idea would be to make "crowd reactions" at shows. Something like poor crowd reactions (Anaheim WWE incident, anyone?) or having the crowd be downright beligerant or spiteful towards people for some reason which could effect the quality of the match (like the last match Brock Lesnar had in the WWE against Goldburg when they practically got booed off the stage).[/QUOTE] This does happen Raptor. Its partly based on the destiny stat, but occasionally you'll get a road agent report after a match that the fans hated a certain wrestler and booed them throughout the match. The match usually gets a much lower rating than it deserves. This mostly happens when you use a mismatched wrestler though. Such as having a lucha promotion and trying to bring in someone who largely wrestles in a hardcore style.

[mvargus]

[QUOTE=Carl1000000;423314]Steve Austin was cheered as a heel and was great at playing the heel. He was booked well and the crowd ended up liking him. John Cena was pushed as a heel originally, he played that well, but the crowd caught on. It wasn't because he was bad at it, or that he was booked badly, it simply because people wanted to cheer him (complete opposite of today obviously). Fact is, it does happen sometimes. It's probably happen more and more as fans seem to be a little to wise for their boots these days. It doesn't happen all the time and should only happen rarely, but it's someting that occured with two of the biggest wrestling stars in the buisness in The Rock and Steve Austin.[/QUOTE] One thing people seem to miss is that by the end both Steve Austin and The Rock were more tweeners than pure face or pure heel. Both used heel tactics when necessary, but largely fought the main heels in the WWE. They also had extremely good microphone skills, and a great rapport with the fans. I would say that its not so much that they were turned to please the fans, as they became so much a part of their gimmicks that they transcended being a heel or face and were just wrestlers by the end.

[thedraem41]

[QUOTE=mvargus;423650]This does happen Raptor. Its partly based on the destiny stat, but occasionally you'll get a road agent report after a match that the fans hated a certain wrestler and booed them throughout the match. The match usually gets a much lower rating than it deserves. This mostly happens when you use a mismatched wrestler though. Such as having a lucha promotion and trying to bring in someone who largely wrestles in a hardcore style.[/QUOTE] I don't think this is the same thing as having a wrestler just not liked by the fans for having weak skills, drug issues, or whatever problems. What you described sounds like a stylistic clash.

[D-Lyrium]

The reason John Cena started being cheered was because he was funny, witty and started becomng very Rock-like in his raps. It's hard to boo someone who's making you laugh. Sure, it started off ok. He was being a prick and saying things the fans didn't like about people they did. But that soon wore off. The fact of the matter is, it was a crap gimmick for a heel. Fantastic as a face (until people realised the guy can't wrestle, but as thedraem pointed out, that's not the point). They had a guy going on stage and rapping, in modern day America, and wondered why people were cheering him. It ain't rocket science. My argument stands; if you're a heel, and you're being cheered, you're not doing your job right (or the job you've been given to do was poorly thought out).

[Gigas]

A lot of people cheer for heels just because they are heels. Canada ignores heel/face all together.

[RaptorRobertRage]

[QUOTE=mvargus;423650]This does happen Raptor. Its partly based on the destiny stat, but occasionally you'll get a road agent report after a match that the fans hated a certain wrestler and booed them throughout the match. The match usually gets a much lower rating than it deserves. This mostly happens when you use a mismatched wrestler though. Such as having a lucha promotion and trying to bring in someone who largely wrestles in a hardcore style.[/QUOTE] Yeah I know, but I'd like to start seeing crowds (loyal fan at least) boo wrestlers off stage due to back-stage events that were leaked to the public. For instance loyal fans could get pissed at a wrestler when they hear they're leaving to wrestling in a rival promotion, for example.

[scorpion]

[QUOTE=Carl1000000;422972]A crowd level meter would be great lol, but I suppose the ratings of the segments are determined by how much the crowd liked it. I understand the poor gimick rating may equal to a face being booed. But a poor gimmick rating wouldn't result in a heel being cheered.[/QUOTE] Wasn't this a part of some long ago version of EW or am I imagining things?

[Steeldogfan]

I think that the Steve Austin turn was a product of a double turn. In his match against Brett Hart, Austin entered the match as "heel", and Hart entered as "face". As the match went on, the fans cheered Austin and booed Hart. Double turns should also be taken into consideration.

[Zakarl]

Austin was getting cheered well before [i]WrestleMania 13[/i] since even Vinnie Mac had to mention his positive fan reception at [i]Survivor Series '96[/i] if not earlier.

[cainekass]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;423702]The reason John Cena started being cheered was because he was funny, witty and started becomng very Rock-like in his raps. It's hard to boo someone who's making you laugh. Sure, it started off ok. He was being a prick and saying things the fans didn't like about people they did. But that soon wore off. The fact of the matter is, it was a crap gimmick for a heel. Fantastic as a face (until people realised the guy can't wrestle, but as thedraem pointed out, that's not the point). They had a guy going on stage and rapping, in modern day America, and wondered why people were cheering him. It ain't rocket science. My argument stands; if you're a heel, and you're being cheered, you're not doing your job right (or the job you've been given to do was poorly thought out).[/QUOTE] You can not dictate what the crowd is going to do 100% every single time. Which is exactly why the Rocky Maivia blue chipper gimmick fell on its face. Battle rapping Cena was getting booed for a long time and was even put into spots where the crowd was expected to boo him, and they did so. But he got cheered not just because he was doing funny raps but, mainly because he was doing something different when the majority of the landscape was pretty bland. Christian at the end of his WWE tenure was a prime example of this. The CLB stuff, the peeps stuff, How I roll etc. was very good heel stuff but, because Christian could get it done in the ring and many people felt he was the one who should have been getting the ME push and not Edge he was getting cheers. At no time when he was being booked as a heel was he doing anything other than heel mannerisms, working matches as a heel etc. but, yet the crowd still got behind him. Not because "he wasn't doing his job". But, because he was a hard worker with a ton of charisma and people wanted to see him get the World Title or at least booked as a viable contender. Same with Austin. No one had ever gave people the finger on a wrestling program. No one was ever booked like Austin yet Everything he did was new and different and the crowd ate it up. Problem is he did it too good. And the crowd finally got behind him. The writing was on the wall and the company had to go with it. If you can honestly sit here and tell me Austin wasnt a good enough heel when he was literally attacking EVERYBODY (Wrestlers, refs, announcers) flipping people off Ill stop watching wrestling now. Pro wrestling is not an exact science and if you think it is and outcomes simply boil down to someone not doing their job correctly, then you havent been paying enough attention IMO.

[D16NJD16]

Every promotion is different but the only thing the WWE cares about right now is who the kids are cheering and booing

[Michael Wayne]

[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;423702] My argument stands; if you're a heel, and you're being cheered, you're not doing your job right (or the job you've been given to do was poorly thought out).[/QUOTE] I disagree with this entire statement. This isn't the 80's. Times have changed, fans have changed. They cheer for who they want, and boo who they want. It has nothing to do with the wrestler. I suppose by your statement you'd call some of the greatest workers in the business and some the biggest names in the industry ****ty since they "can't do their jobs right". They obviously did it right if they made more money in a week then you've made in a lifetime. Wrestling isn't about WHO you want to book as the heel anymore. That outdated nonsense of thinking you can "control the fans" died years ago. And anyone who thinks this still holds true must be eating from the same stupid tree as Dutch Mantell. Wrestling fans control everything. And if the booker can't wrap his head around following the fans lead, then he's a ****ing idiot who should be fired. The fact that they're trying to force Cena as the heel when the fans CLEARLY want him as the face only furthers this argument. I could really go into detail about so many examples and so many guys, but this post would never end. If we went by your logic, Snitsky would be a main eventing heel. When in reality, Snitsky sucks.

[Zakarl]

...and if you need any more proof that this isn't the 80s, just turn on a radio and cringe after listening for less than a minute. But to actually contribute: isn't the knock on Mantel that he's a sycophant, not necessarily that he's unskilled at his job?