Too many stars in long-term games?

[soundsofsilver]

Using Actarus' long-term sim up to 2020, I was taking a look around the game world and how it evolved by that point. I'm a little worried about a couple things, specifically, the constant growth of promotions and the amount of extremely over wrestlers. I'm concerned with the popularity of various feds. WLW, the #1 fed in the world, is at least B+ in every location on earth. That's fine. Focusing on the US, they are B+ in every region for popularity. US Popularity: WLW: B+ TCW: B- (B or above everywhere else in the world) GCG: B+ (B+ in Canada; A in Japan) PGHW: B- (B- or above everywhere else) SWF: C+ (C+ or above everywhere else) UFW (Created Fed): A (A in Canada and Mexico) Now, I know that the game is more based on Importance, but it's easier to report the straight popularity numbers. Even so, it seems to me that those popularities are a little funny: 6 promotions at C+ or above throughout the US, including WLW and PHGW. All of these promotions are famous around the world. My point is, it seems like there's just a tad too many top promotions at this point, with most of those promotions having achieved "National" type numbers around the world. I recognize that National Battle keeps it from getting TOO out of hand, but I feel like those type of numbers are a bit much as is. My other concern is worker overness, in the same universe. Here are the number of active wrestlers at various levels of overness in the US: A*: 12! (5 WLW) A: 21 (13 WLW) B+: 35 B: 38 B-: 24 I'm concerned that the number of extremely popular workers (33 at A or above) is quite unrealistic. Most of them, obviously, work for WLW. Perhaps this is how the game world is intended to turn out, but it just seems to me that there is a ridiculously high concentration of wrestlers at the top overness level. When it gets to the point that a promotion has as many superstars as WLW has in this game, it hurts the immersion factor. What does anyone else think? I'm just a bit worried that as the game world goes on, rather than the game world evolving normally, everything keeps improving and everyone keeps getting more over. In 2008 the game starts with I believe 2 wrestlers who are at A popularity in the US... in 12 years, it's 16 times that. I just can't imagine a wrestling universe with so many simultaneous superstars.

[Jaded]

What's the industry like at that point? Haven't got anywhere near that far on my game yet, so have no idea whether that's got anything to do with it...

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=Jaded;449529]What's the industry like at that point? Haven't got anywhere near that far on my game yet, so have no idea whether that's got anything to do with it...[/QUOTE] America's Economy is E+, Industry is C-. I don't think that Industry has much influence on overness of workers; I had the exact same issue with 2007, and there were tons of megastars even when the industry is really low. I might be wrong though, for sure. Japan, where WLW is headquartered of course, is E falling economy and E- falling industry.

[Adam Ryland]

It doesn't matter which way it is, there's still going to be complaints. If I altered it so that the amount of potentially super-popular workers is quite low, cue the rash of complaints from people who hate the fact that it's now really hard to make superstars. If I altered it so that the game world will only support one or two giant promotions, cue even more complaints because it'd be too hard for anyone to take a small promotion to great heights. Keep it the way it is, cue the complaints that it's too much.

[infinitywpi]

You know what would fix this? Well, promotions have national/regional battles... maybe duplicate that for workers. compare the main eventers of all the promotions in a national/regional battle; everyone who is less popular than someone in another promotion in the battle takes a popularity hit as fans everywhere say "Yeah, Giant Redwood is good, but he's no Jim Force!" Or, to put it another way, "Hulk Hogan is so yesterday, man. Check out Steve Austin..."

[machinesxe]

[QUOTE=infinitywpi;449586]You know what would fix this? Well, promotions have national/regional battles... maybe duplicate that for workers. compare the main eventers of all the promotions in a national/regional battle; everyone who is less popular than someone in another promotion in the battle takes a popularity hit as fans everywhere say "Yeah, Giant Redwood is good, but he's no Jim Force!" Or, to put it another way, "Hulk Hogan is so yesterday, man. Check out Steve Austin..."[/QUOTE]Good suggestion, maybe more complicated than we would like to have him have to code but good idea non the less

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;449574]It doesn't matter which way it is, there's still going to be complaints. If I altered it so that the amount of potentially super-popular workers is quite low, cue the rash of complaints from people who hate the fact that it's now really hard to make superstars. If I altered it so that the game world will only support one or two giant promotions, cue even more complaints because it'd be too hard for anyone to take a small promotion to great heights. Keep it the way it is, cue the complaints that it's too much.[/QUOTE] I see what you're saying. I'm just suggesting that perhaps there is a better balance. Currently, WLW has midcarders who are at A popularity in the US, and they're a Japan-based fed. If there's no way to alter this without ruining other features, then so be it, I'm just pointing out what seems to be a major weakness in the game. After a while, there is an unrealistically high amount of international superstars, and a ton of very successful promotions. This makes the game less fun/realistic in the long run.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=soundsofsilver;449600]If there's no way to alter this without ruining other features, then so be it, I'm just pointing out what seems to be a major weakness in the game. After a while, there is an unrealistically high amount of international superstars, and a ton of very successful promotions.[/QUOTE] In [B]that particular game[/B]. The destiny stat controls potential overness to a large degree, there'll be a different amount from game to game. [QUOTE]This makes the game less fun/realistic in the long run.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but whether it makes it more fun or not is entirely subjective. Not everyone plays the game by sitting there watching what the AI does - in fact, I'd guess the majority of users play the game because they want to play hands-on, controlling a promotion. In that case, I'd suggest that erring on the side of having too many potential stars is a hell of a lot more fun than having too few. The former means more stars and more battles, the latter means more of a slog as you desperately try to uncover one of the few big names who may be in the game. I'm pretty sure I know which one of the two options the majority of players would be in favour of. Same goes for more effective promotions. Again, you cannot have it both ways. As has already been discussed, if you want AI that is actually competitive and can push a player, then by definition they have to capable of being successful most of the time because that's what a player can do. So, you end up with a lot of promotions fighting it out. That's why national battles exist, to limit how many promotions can stay up there. Sorry if you don't like those changes, but they're represent big improvements over previous games IMO.

[Wallbanger]

[quote=soundsofsilver;449600]I see what you're saying. I'm just suggesting that perhaps there is a better balance. Currently, WLW has midcarders who are at A popularity in the US, and they're a Japan-based fed. If there's no way to alter this without ruining other features, then so be it, I'm just pointing out what seems to be a major weakness in the game. After a while, there is an unrealistically high amount of international superstars, and a ton of very successful promotions. This makes the game less fun/realistic in the long run.[/quote] It's possible that your particular game has a uncharacteristially high set of Destiny stats within the worker base. Then again, it might be characteristic, hard to say for certain since a) we'd have to compare your game to other long term games to see if a trend exists, and b) the destiny stat is hidden so even if we knew what the 'average' Destiny was we couldn't see whether your game has high Destiny stats or not. Not trying to discount what you're saying, just suggesting that more data is required before drawing any conclusions about the overall game balance.

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;449607]In [B]that particular game[/B]. The destiny stat controls potential overness to a large degree, there'll be a different amount from game to game. [/quote] This is true, but I simmed many games into the future in TEW2007, with similar results. I don't think it's this particular game. [quote]Not everyone plays the game by sitting there watching what the AI does - in fact, I'd guess the majority of users play the game because they want to play hands-on, controlling a promotion. [/quote] Right, me too. I would also like to be a part in a long-term gaming universe that seems realistic, rather than having many times the initial amount of international superstars and major promotions. I haven't played in a game that far into the future, but I would imagine it's a lot less challenging to put on great shows when there's so many top stars. [quote] In that case, I'd suggest that erring on the side of having too many potential stars is a hell of a lot more fun than having too few. The former means more stars and more battles, the latter means more of a slog as you desperately try to uncover one of the few big names who may be in the game. I'm pretty sure I know which one of the two options the majority of players would be in favour of. [/quote] Heh... I guess you're probably right. For what it's worth, though, I would enjoy it to be more of a challenge to find big stars. Having 30+ guys at A overness is much less fun for me. If I'm playing as one of those promotions, there's no challenge in pumping out great shows... is the challenge supposed to be in winning National Battles and staying at National/Global? [quote]As has already been discussed, if you want AI that is actually competitive and can push a player, then by definition they have to capable of being successful most of the time because that's what a player can do. So, you end up with a lot of promotions fighting it out. That's why national battles exist, to limit how many promotions can stay up there. [/quote] So basically, it's inevitable that most promotions will rise to the top, and that the game world will end up involving loads of superstars and huge promotions battling out at the top? [quote]Sorry if you don't like those changes, but they're represent big improvements over previous games IMO.[/QUOTE] Yeah, the National Battle definitely does. The overness/promotion growth problems aren't unique to 2008, I saw the same problem with so many stars in 2007. I think perhaps I'll have to accept the fact that a long term game in TEW means that in a number of years the wrestling world will involve more major wrestlers and promotions than have ever existed. I'm sure the game will still have fun aspects about it, but I'm a tad disappointed to think that, for instance, if I play the 1991 real world mod, by 2000 there will be so many stars it makes the real Attitude Era look pathetic. Or, If I play the 1997 cornellverse mod, by 2008 there could be 6 national-level promotions in the US, some of which are based in other countries.

[CQI13]

[QUOTE]I think perhaps I'll have to accept the fact that a long term game in TEW means that in a number of years the wrestling world will involve more major wrestlers and promotions than have ever existed. I'm sure the game will still have fun aspects about it, but I'm a tad disappointed to think that, for instance, if I play the 1991 real world mod, by 2000 there will be so many stars it makes the real Attitude Era look pathetic. Or, If I play the 1997 cornellverse mod, by 2008 there could be 6 national-level promotions in the US, some of which are based in other countries.[/QUOTE] That is of course provided that when you control one of the promotions (why not take the lesser of them) you can build up the stars the simulation provided. Otherwise you'd still be fighting uphill (slightly).

[EricAdams]

As long as its just as easy for a user to make stars long term as an AI, that's fine with me.

[Franchise22]

ill be honest. i dont play the game with the goal of "global" and trying to exploit all the odds and ends of the game to "win". i dont know how to really explain it but..... as adam said, i just enjoy running a promotion. i love making storylines, building stars, booking in general, going to war and trying to steal other talents. thats so much fun! looking for loopholes just to "win" doesnt seem like much fun in a game like this. this gameplay and attempting to book the best cards and matches possible has had me hooked since i stumbled upon EWR long ago and have purchased all TEW games and WMMA. but to each his own i guess :)

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=Franchise22;449793]ill be honest. i dont play the game with the goal of "global" and trying to exploit all the odds and ends of the game to "win". i dont know how to really explain it but..... as adam said, i just enjoy running a promotion. i love making storylines, building stars, booking in general, going to war and trying to steal other talents. thats so much fun! looking for loopholes just to "win" doesnt seem like much fun in a game like this. this gameplay and attempting to book the best cards and matches possible has had me hooked since i stumbled upon EWR long ago and have purchased all TEW games and WMMA. but to each his own i guess :)[/QUOTE] I enjoy all those things as well, but I also see myself as existing within a universe. When the universe seems so unrealistic to me (30 wrestlers at A overness or above), it makes the experience of running my own promotion less fun.

[Caninrok]

I have to say that I don't have a problem with the number of very popular workers you're reporting. I think an argument could be legitimately made for these workers Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, John Cena, HHH, Shawn Michaels, Batista, Edge, Jim Ross, The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin and Rey Misterio To all be considered at the pinnacle of popularity in the US. Now I know some will disagree, but the fact is those names can all get entire arenas all around the country making a great deal of noise, any day of the week the WWE runs a show there. Again, one could make a strong argument that they are A* overness. And here in the real world there is only one giant company. If there were as many as in the game world (and the reason there are so many has already been explained several times by Adam) it would stand to reason that there would be more fantastically popular workers. Now I don't have a lot of experience playing yet so I can't say one way or the other, but I do hope that not ALL computer booked feds do well all the time. It would be nice if some of them were run badly some of the time. Overall however, a strong AI is a good thing.

[castorius]

[QUOTE=infinitywpi;449586]You know what would fix this? Well, promotions have national/regional battles... maybe duplicate that for workers. compare the main eventers of all the promotions in a national/regional battle; everyone who is less popular than someone in another promotion in the battle takes a popularity hit as fans everywhere say "Yeah, Giant Redwood is good, but he's no Jim Force!" Or, to put it another way, "Hulk Hogan is so yesterday, man. Check out Steve Austin..."[/QUOTE] I think you hit up on a good idea. From my perspective what you are saying is that overness should be a "relative" term - meaning relative to the other workers in the game universe. In other words, overness should NOT be "absolute" - where an infinite amount of workers can achieve A* overness if they are talented enough. With overness being "relative" (based on the competition of workers at the given time/universe), then even if you have a game universe with alot of super talented workers, their overness rating would only achieve as high as the competition would allow. So, for example, there's a mod that's coming out called "War of the Immortals" - it'll feature some of the most talented workers that the wrestling industry has ever seen. Even if these workers are given high ratings, the overness in the game universe is "finite", so each worker can only be as good overness based on the competition around them. So even if in a "normal" universe Scott Steiner would be able to easily achieve a B overness, BUT in the War of the Immortals mod, Steiner would be more a C- overness worker because of the intense competition and talent surrounding him in that game universe. This finite perspective of overness is more realistic. There is only so much "love" that people can give, and this "love" should be dispersed to the workers in the game universe. While Scott Steiner may be considered one of the better workers during his time, how would his popularity have been in a time where there were super legends all at once? Think about it, lets say if Hogan was in his prime, if Steve Austin was in his prime, Ric Flair was in his prime, Andre the Giant was in his prime, Antonio Inoki was in his prime, Lou Thesz was in his prime, Buddy Rogers was in his prime, Bruno Sammartino was in his prime - then how much room would there be for Scott Steiner to be really popular in this era? There is only so much popularity that the fans can give. If Scott Steiner came up in a time where there were an inordinate amount of talented workers, he wouldn't stand a chance.

[eayragt]

[QUOTE=soundsofsilver;449860]I enjoy all those things as well, but I also see myself as existing within a universe. When the universe seems so unrealistic to me (30 wrestlers at A overness or above), it makes the experience of running my own promotion less fun.[/QUOTE] That really depends on what you mean by an unrealistic universe. In real life, wrestling is dominated by one major promotion - you could argue that WWE is the only promotion National or above in the world. There certainly aren't 4 National promotions, and there certianly aren't... 8? (I'm not infront of the game right now) Cult+ promotions in the real world. There are in the Cornellverse. I believe this does make a huge difference - I imagine if there were so many large promotions in real life, there would be far more stars. If you want the Cornellverse to more closely mirror real life, I think you'd have to delete TCW and NOTBPW, while decreasing the size of promotions in the UK, Japan and Mexico. And before you run a test like that, it wouldn't actually be fair, because without those promotions ever existing you'd have to knock down a lot of wrestlers starting popularity. I can only give my opinion, but I definately like the large number of promotions available, and I think that as some people had an issue with the small number of companies in WMMA, I'm not alone in this. And as I like to build a small company up, any further limitations on worker popularity potential would make it exceptionally difficult to grow to National if the promotions that are currently there have locked up all the stars or wrestlers who have potential to be stars to long term contracts. On the flip side, there are people who want to book wrestling shows (specifically WWE shows), and don't want to worry to much about falling in size and beign fired. The fact that if you have a load of stars makes booking shows easier isn't necessarily a bad thing for everyone - that's how some people want to play the game. I think most people (including you) will agree that the improvement in the AI in TEW2008 makes a huge difference, as no longer can you take a promotion from Small to Global while a Cult promotion stays at Cult, and a Small company makes it to Regional. This has conversely had the affect of the AI being more successful at making stars, but with the abundance of talent and companies in the Cornellverse, the AI really [I]should [/I]be making this amount of stars. I think the only most effective way that Adam could address this would be to have some "wrestling scandal" hit the world, which forces companies down in size and many wrestlers out of the business, so most people are starting from a lower popularity level. However, I knwo that I would strongly be against this idea.

[Franchise22]

[QUOTE=eayragt;450017]. I think the only most effective way that Adam could address this would be to have some "wrestling scandal" hit the world, which forces companies down in size and many wrestlers out of the business, so most people are starting from a lower popularity level. However, I knwo that I would strongly be against this idea.[/QUOTE] scapinos diary had a storyline that did that;)

[TeemuFoundation]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;449574]It doesn't matter which way it is, there's still going to be complaints. If I altered it so that the amount of potentially super-popular workers is quite low, cue the rash of complaints from people who hate the fact that it's now really hard to make superstars. If I altered it so that the game world will only support one or two giant promotions, cue even more complaints because it'd be too hard for anyone to take a small promotion to great heights. Keep it the way it is, cue the complaints that it's too much.[/QUOTE] That's human nature for you, my dear Adam. That's human nature.

[Self]

[QUOTE=infinitywpi;449586]Well, promotions have national/regional battles... maybe duplicate that for workers. compare the main eventers of all the promotions in a national/regional battle; everyone who is less popular than someone in another promotion in the battle takes a popularity hit as fans everywhere say "Yeah, Giant Redwood is good, but he's no Jim Force!" Or, to put it another way, "Hulk Hogan is so yesterday, man. Check out Steve Austin..."[/QUOTE] I have no complaints about how the game works, and I haven't been in a national battle (nor a regional one for that matter... that I know of) but this idea gives me a giddy little thrill... Could be cool.

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=eayragt;450017]That really depends on what you mean by an unrealistic universe. In real life, wrestling is dominated by one major promotion - you could argue that WWE is the only promotion National or above in the world. There certainly aren't 4 National promotions, and there certianly aren't... 8? (I'm not infront of the game right now) Cult+ promotions in the real world. There are in the Cornellverse. I believe this does make a huge difference - I imagine if there were so many large promotions in real life, there would be far more stars. If you want the Cornellverse to more closely mirror real life, I think you'd have to delete TCW and NOTBPW, while decreasing the size of promotions in the UK, Japan and Mexico. And before you run a test like that, it wouldn't actually be fair, because without those promotions ever existing you'd have to knock down a lot of wrestlers starting popularity.[/QUOTE] In the late 90's real world, there were around 6 national promotions in the world, but certainly not anything like what I'm coming across in this C-Verse sim. I see why some people defend this, in principle, but I can't believe having 30+ megastars in one area is okay with some people. This also includes the tons of B+/B workers who would generally considered main eventers, and are now not even in the top 50 over workers in the US. WLW has an upper midcard full of guys at Hogan-style popularity. I understand that people what a competitive AI, and are okay with more stars, but I'm surprised that it has to mean SO MANY stars.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=soundsofsilver;450069]but I'm surprised that it has to mean SO MANY stars.[/QUOTE] It doesn't. Some games have more than others, depending on the destiny stat. If you're still not happy, reduce the superstar quality of most wrestlers and you will lower the number of potential superstars.

[soundsofsilver]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;450074]It doesn't. Some games have more than others, depending on the destiny stat. If you're still not happy, reduce the superstar quality of most wrestlers and you will lower the number of potential superstars.[/QUOTE] Right, and you point out the solution I'll have to use if I see this as a problem, which is just to use the editor if the game world seems to be getting out of what I desire. I was suggesting that the number of major stars might be a problem; it appears that most people are fine with it, however. So, I guess I'll have to fix it in my own game for my own liking.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=soundsofsilver;450076]Right, and you point out the solution I'll have to use if I see this as a problem, which is just to use the editor if the game world seems to be getting out of what I desire. I was suggesting that the number of major stars might be a problem; it appears that most people are fine with it, however. So, I guess I'll have to fix it in my own game for my own liking.[/QUOTE] Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The default database has a high percentage of potential superstars, if that's not to your taste then you use the editor to change it, same as I'd suggest to anyone who doesn't like the way it's set up. The database isn't going to please 100% of people, and isn't meant to, the editor is there specifically for people who want there own specs.

[shipshirt]

[QUOTE=soundsofsilver;449860]I enjoy all those things as well, but I also see myself as existing within a universe. When the universe seems so unrealistic to me (30 wrestlers at A overness or above), it makes the experience of running my own promotion less fun.[/QUOTE] That's also a universe that has no human interaction at all. It was all AI. The human factor changes the universe considerably as you may sign talent, block talent from being signed, use people differently...etc. For as many promotions in the Cornellverse, 30 wrestlers with A or above doesn't sound like much. You should probably, you know, actually PLAY a game out that long and then come back and tell us what you see.