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I could care less about matches... they could be a word long if you like ("good." "bad." "neither." I've just done every match ever for you :p). What matters to me is story... though that will differ from reader to reader.
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[quote=D-Lyrium;652342]I'd just like to ask, if I may, how important matches are to you, as a reader. That seems an odd question, considering we're talking about wrestling... but what I mean is: Does a match have to be well written out, in a decent level of detail, for you to enjoy the diary?[/quote] Depends on: 1.) [B]The product[/B]. I really don't expect a lot from entertainment promotions but if one does a performance biased promotion you kind of expect top quality match writeups. 2.) [B]Importance of the match[/B]. I usually do longer match writeups when there's a title on the line, to give the titles some meaning. Or if there's anything other on the line. If it's just a basic match between two people who have not had any beef with each other before, I really don't care that much. But if something in-match happens which is important for the future bouts, of course one would write more about it. [B]([/B]3.) One thing I usually try to do to the maximum is to have the quality and lenght of the match related to the [B]actual grade[/B] it gets in TEW08 compared to your usual standard/popularity. You won't see top rope moves or apron moves, or kick outs from finishing moves in a C- match if you will have B matches in the card aswell, etc.. All the rare stuff and "MOTYC" material will indeed be saved for those A to A* MOTYC's.[B])[/B] So my writing style regarding matches is a mixture of those three things. The product, importance and the actual grade. [QUOTE]I'm not saying I'm aiming for Tigerkinney's BHOTWG levels of awesome match writing, but I'd like the matches that are important, or rate highly, to *feel* important or highly rated...[/QUOTE] I am. Seriously. When my GCG gets some momentum behind it and when I know the moves and wrestlers, etc.. Watch out.
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[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;652342]I'd just like to ask, if I may, how important matches are to you, as a reader. That seems an odd question, considering we're talking about wrestling... but what I mean is: Does a match have to be well written out, in a decent level of detail, for you to enjoy the diary? The thing I'm struggling most with at the moment is match writing, largely because I don't actually watch that much wrestling any more. But whenever I preview my shows on the forum the matches seem really short. I mean, they are short writeups, but some of my opening matches are like three lines when previewed on the forum. I guess my problem with that is that it makes me feel like I haven't put enough effort in, which makes it feel like the readers will come to the same conclusion... I'm not saying I'm aiming for Tigerkinney's BHOTWG levels of awesome match writing, but I'd like the matches that are important, or rate highly, to *feel* important or highly rated... Thoughts?[/QUOTE] The importance of matches is a tough one. I agree with the sentiment from FIN that the context is important. As a reader, I am going to expect a bit more focus on the matches in a pure-based promotion. Not to say every math has to an epic write-up, but just that a minimalist approach it tougher to accept. Whereas in a SE fed, I can accept a pretty basic description like "Worker X won the match by finall after 10 minutes, after dominating the match" is acceptable under most conditions. It would seem a little spare when its an A* match that headlined the biggest show of the year - "Worker Y won the best match of the year after 45 minutes by submission" seems a bit sparse. At the same time, I'm probably not interested in reading a four-paragraph detailed write-up on a dark match bewteen two jobbers, no matter how well its written. I will disagree with FIN a bit in that while I do think its a good idea to correlate the match write-up to the grade, as context again matters. Because a C- match in a popular pure fed just means it was a bad (or at least mediocre) match. A C- match in a SE could mean it was a bad match, or an indifferent crowd or two unpopular workers putting a great match, or any number of issues. I love the TigerKinney-style write-ups. I love when you are reading them, you can basically envision the match as the writer intends it. That isn't easy. It not only takes writing skill and innate knowledge of wrestling, but also a great imagination to come up with detailed matches that aren't the same thing every time. But as much as I love that, it wouldn't really seem special if everyone could do it. Personally, what I try to consider is what do I want to have happened during the match? Beyond the result, obviously. Was it an open and even match, or dominated by one worker? Was it a brawl, an aerial affair, a technical mat battle, or some combination? Was there flow and tell a story or were there just big spots? Did it stay in the ring or move in and out? Was there interference? Is the match a slow build towards a big finish? Is it an epic battle where they throw everything they have at each other throughout? Is there endless false finishes with finsiher after finisher? Figure out what you want the match to and feature, then just describe that. Throw in a few signature spots in the right places, and maybe some hyperbole if its a good match grade, and you'll probably end up with a decent enough write-up.
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I'm not too fond of writing matches either, especially when they have no plot points to push forward, and are just matches for the sake of matches. To make things easier, I follow this template, which I learned from a Shoot Interview, which I call "[I]Raven's Guide To Match Psychology[/I]". 1) [B]The Shine[/B] - The Babyface does something impressive, to appeal to the audience and show he can beat the Heel. 2) [B]The Turning Point[/B] - The Heel does something to turn the tables, normally by Cheating. 3) [B]The Heat [/B]- The Heel beats down the Babyface, using his own brand of offense, usually less exciting as the Babyface, for obvious reasons. 4) [B]The Comeback[/B] - The Babyface does something to turn the tables, preferably something awesome. 5)[B] The Back and Forth[/B] - The two fighters go toe-to-toe, each using their individual style to try to win. 6) [B]The Finish[/B] - Just what it says on the tin, the end of the match. Now depending on how I want the match to go, I'll write certain steps long, cut some short, or cut others entirely. Unless I've booked it to be an "Open Match" I usually skip Step 5. If a Heel's winning a Squash match, I skip Step 1. I feel that matches are very important in wrestling. I can't just tell stories through promos, I have to have moments that occur in the ring. Run-ins (Chitose's recent antics with Harry Allen) characters flaws (Johnny Blood's rage) even the decision of which Babyface gets the hot tag in a Tag Team Match. I find it important, and I hope people aren't just reading my promos, because if you are, you're missing half of the story. That being said, I do have trouble finding the balance with matches. I do try to cut them down as short as possible, leaving only the core essentials and plot points. It's a work in progress. I'm not 100% happy yet.
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I'm trying to steer clear of long winded write ups, I find after writing diaries for a while that long winded write ups can burn you out and stop you from enjoying a story. And if you can't enjoy it, firstly whats the point, and secondly, if you can't, who can? I use a more distinguished style now for my major main events, because they have storyline arches in the matches themselves. I'm beginning to find I can give away a lot more with shorter, simplistic summarisations of the match coupled with more effective plot linkages outside the match. My initial writing was designed because I wanted the stories I wrote for to bring back credit and meaning to Championships and the art of wrestling itself, but I feel I can put prestige into the Championships by making a pay-off matches more meaningful, have more reason, and make the outcome therefore that much more cutting edge in importance. I would even suggest modern day economics plays a part in the successful organisation of wrestling promotions. Think about this, when you watched old school wrestling from the early 80s, how old was your TV or how long did you have your TV for? Same with your telephone. Things are so much more quicker these days. People don't want long term, they want concise, they want action packed, and they want it now. I don't know in modern day economies if hour long broadways et al could cut it, I watch a few of them now and I think... too long. And I'm an old school fan. I think people are legitimately seeing wrestling as a way out, a fantastic new world, a drama. So to me now writing wise it doesn't make a lot of sense to write a novella for a match. I try and tell the people what happens in a concise manner, unless its a major title opportunity or a very important match. One thing I think that should also be encouraged is to not be afraid to point out weaknesses et al in matches, if all your wrestlers are outlandish superstars, how can they be beaten??? Not every match I put together is designed either to push an angle or a wrestler, sometimes as a booker you need to de-exhaust the crowd to keep them sane enough to comprehend a later event on the card. When I really got back into wrestling I did some roleplaying in e-feds and to start off with I tried to make my character perfect - you know, 300 pounds of muscle, can do a moonsault, the ladies love him... as I went along I found it so much more fun to point out his imperfections and to find his 'zing' for why wrestling was important. In reality, at the end he was a boring, basic wrestler, his look wasn't overly spectacular, he was just who he was. Sometimes wrestlers are like that.
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[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;652342]I'd just like to ask, if I may, how important matches are to you, as a reader. That seems an odd question, considering we're talking about wrestling... but what I mean is: Does a match have to be well written out, in a decent level of detail, for you to enjoy the diary? The thing I'm struggling most with at the moment is match writing, largely because I don't actually watch that much wrestling any more. But whenever I preview my shows on the forum the matches seem really short. I mean, they are short writeups, but some of my opening matches are like three lines when previewed on the forum. I guess my problem with that is that it makes me feel like I haven't put enough effort in, which makes it feel like the readers will come to the same conclusion... I'm not saying I'm aiming for Tigerkinney's BHOTWG levels of awesome match writing, but I'd like the matches that are important, or rate highly, to *feel* important or highly rated... Thoughts?[/QUOTE] I rarely ever read match writing properly.. sometimes i'll skim, usually I'll skip. Not saying that I would never read it with great attention but it would either need to be really well written (and not just in a descriptive sense, in a creative sense (the style of writing itself would have to actually be interesting)) or part of such a great storyline that I couldn't help be invested in the journey of their match and not just the result. Although a writer could also get away having lesser talent using a combination of the two.
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[QUOTE=tristram;652697]I'm trying to steer clear of long winded write ups, I find after writing diaries for a while that long winded write ups can burn you out and stop you from enjoying a story. And if you can't enjoy it, firstly whats the point, and secondly, if you can't, who can? I use a more distinguished style now for my major main events, because they have storyline arches in the matches themselves. I'm beginning to find I can give away a lot more with shorter, simplistic summarisations of the match coupled with more effective plot linkages outside the match. My initial writing was designed because I wanted the stories I wrote for to bring back credit and meaning to Championships and the art of wrestling itself, but I feel I can put prestige into the Championships by making a pay-off matches more meaningful, have more reason, and make the outcome therefore that much more cutting edge in importance. I would even suggest modern day economics plays a part in the successful organisation of wrestling promotions. Think about this, when you watched old school wrestling from the early 80s, how old was your TV or how long did you have your TV for? Same with your telephone. Things are so much more quicker these days. People don't want long term, they want concise, they want action packed, and they want it now. I don't know in modern day economies if hour long broadways et al could cut it, I watch a few of them now and I think... too long. And I'm an old school fan. I think people are legitimately seeing wrestling as a way out, a fantastic new world, a drama. So to me now writing wise it doesn't make a lot of sense to write a novella for a match. I try and tell the people what happens in a concise manner, unless its a major title opportunity or a very important match. One thing I think that should also be encouraged is to not be afraid to point out weaknesses et al in matches, if all your wrestlers are outlandish superstars, how can they be beaten??? Not every match I put together is designed either to push an angle or a wrestler, sometimes as a booker you need to de-exhaust the crowd to keep them sane enough to comprehend a later event on the card. When I really got back into wrestling I did some roleplaying in e-feds and to start off with I tried to make my character perfect - you know, 300 pounds of muscle, can do a moonsault, the ladies love him... as I went along I found it so much more fun to point out his imperfections and to find his 'zing' for why wrestling was important. In reality, at the end he was a boring, basic wrestler, his look wasn't overly spectacular, he was just who he was. Sometimes wrestlers are like that.[/QUOTE] I agree with tristam a hundred and ten percent here now I know I don't play TEW but when I plan to write I at least set out a game plan to get off as I planned out many of dynasties that never came to fruition due to lack of fun.
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[QUOTE=crayon;637102] This applies to to real world booking as well really, and why I don't necessarily agree a hundred percent to some of Storm's views. The problem isn't that X Promotion is doing this way or that way, when booking should be done THIS way instead—the problem is that what they're choosing to do is either counter-productive, and/or they're just doing it really badly. [/QUOTE] That's because Lance Storm has biases, like anyone else. He seems to lean towards a Product that's Traditional, Realistic, and Pure. He seems to also like Modern (X-Division) and is open to Hyper Realism (he watches some MMA now). Coincidentally, he's wrestling style is quite leaning towards Traditionalism, Realism, and Pure, and he can do well with the Modern Style. If Lance Storm was still wrestling, he would HAVE made a great addition to the X-Division. He doesn't seem to lean much against anything, though, other than bad booking or wrestling. I want to point out that, I find I agree with Lance Storm 99% of the time, though not always. I also I have to disagree with Jim Cornette, but not the reasons you might think. I think he's wrong to point out that "everyone's" doing hardcore wrestling. Hasn't he been paying attention the ACTUAL trends of wrestling? Hardcore wrestling is not on the "in's", it's on the out's. Cornette is 10 to 19 years too late in his commentary - Hardcore wrestling was "in" during the 90's, but it's 2009 now. Other CZW, what other promotion is really hardcore now in the USA, and is popular enough? I can't think of any. When I think of Wrestling in the Independent scene, Hardcore is not one of them.
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[QUOTE=ampulator;652726]Other CZW, what other promotion is really hardcore now in the USA, and is popular enough? I can't think of any.[/QUOTE] Honestly, CZW isn't that popular at all anymore. And there are some other better known independent promotions in the States that cater to the hardcore/deathmatch scene like IWA-MS and IWA-EC, but all in all the deathmatch style is a very small niche nowadays so it's effect on the business as a whole is relatively minuscule. When a straightforward wrestling promotion like Ring Of Honor can break out of the pack, or a comedy/lucha-infused product like CHIKARA is growing more and more each year, you really can't argue that hardcore wrestling is continuing to "kill the biz". And this quote from Cornette is absolutely ridiculous- [QUOTE][I]Additionally, just who is it that ENJOYS this sideshow garbage? The same type of people who go to rock concerts to punch and bash each other in the face and beat each other up in the "mosh pit"--lower class, mentally challenged college-age (but not attending) guys who piss and moan about their depression and lot in life because they have neither the drive and determination nor mental acumen to change it. Any normal fans who see this type of show or attend one with these type of fans NEVER want to go to wrestling again.[/I][/QUOTE] Stereotype much? I thoroughly enjoy deathmatch wrestling when it's done right, and I've never been nor will I ever be in a mosh pit, am not mentally challenged, and I'm pretty sure I'm not depressed. I find it funny how he says "piss and moan" when that's all he's doing in that long-winded rant. The business has changed without you, Jim. Deal with it. Edit: Ahem. Sorry for getting off-topic here. :o
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[QUOTE=Mea Culpa;652768]Honestly, CZW isn't that popular at all anymore. And there are some other better known independent promotions in the States that cater to the hardcore/deathmatch scene like IWA-MS and IWA-EC, but all in all the deathmatch style is a very small niche nowadays so it's effect on the business as a whole is relatively minuscule. When a straightforward wrestling promotion like Ring Of Honor can break out of the pack, or a comedy/lucha-infused product like CHIKARA is growing more and more each year, you really can't argue that hardcore wrestling is continuing to "kill the biz". And this quote from Cornette is absolutely ridiculous- Stereotype much? I thoroughly enjoy deathmatch wrestling when it's done right, and I've never been nor will I ever be in a mosh pit, am not mentally challenged, and I'm pretty sure I'm not depressed. I find it funny how he says "piss and moan" when that's all he's doing in that long-winded rant. The business has changed without you, Jim. Deal with it. Edit: Ahem. Sorry for getting off-topic here. :o[/QUOTE] Are you agreeing with me? Because I certainly agree with you. Honestly speaking, on the "Hardcore" stuff, I think Heyman always used it as a gimmick to "shake" things up. He claims he's merely exploiting a market that no one has taken advantage of, but I think he actually created a market to sell to, rather than sell to an already existing market. That takes serious work. For Heyman, I think it was always the fans, particularly the minority, the "Cult". I think that's his lasting contribution. He made a successful synthesis of Cult and Hardcore, and made a go at it. Looking back on the Indy scene after the death of ECW, I think his lasting contributions has more to do with appealing to minority of fans can be successful, making high-fliers more well known and acceptable, and introducing (but which actually is not actually major part of ECW) of a more Modern style. Look where Hardcore is now, versus where the other types of product are. I think Cornette is rant against Hardcore, again, is too outdated.
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[QUOTE]Who was your favorite Thundercat? Why? Who is your favorite Dragonball Z character? Why? What character did you always gravitate to when playing Street Fighter? Why? Who was your favorite Star Wars character? Why? Who is your favorite Lord of the Rings character? Why? Break it down and you'll find threads that can be used to weave your characters' personalities.[/QUOTE] by remianen way of topic but just wondering The one with the nunchak's, Vegeta, Guile, Vader, Gimli. So what does that say about me just wondering lol.
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[quote=Hyde Hill;657886] The one with the nunchak's[/quote] still off topic but I had to jump in here Panthro - Nunchucks, Liono - eye of thundera, Cheetara - Staff, wily kit and wily (Spelling?) kat - the two kids with magic pills ( i think thats where they got the ides for the different animal sponges inside the dissolvable capsules lol), Tigra - whip and last but certainly not least Snarf - the cook , haha. lol. By far one of my favorite cartoons of all time along with Silverhawks (i believe was the name). anyways back on topic. I did have a question when i first came into this thread, that I nearly forgot. What about a fictional fed with-in the C-Verse? Where as a diary surrounding a user created fed do you think there would be any interest in that? How would you ( used as a general term ) go about it?
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I have a real hard time getting into a game that's not started with a default promotion in the database. It has to have a really logical, realistic backstory and owner for me to get into one. One really big tip: Choose a promotion you like, a style you like. If you have watched sports entertainment and just SE your whole life, book one. If you have always had a niche for pure, modern, puroresu etc, performance based promotions, book one. Don't try to be something that you aren't. Keep asking yourself "why do I watch wrestling and other questions similar to that one.
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Fictional promotions in the C-Verse can do well, they can even become co-winner of the DOTM competition... there's an example on the tip of my tongue... If only I could remember it... Bah. It is harder to get readers with a 'fake' promotion. No question. You've really got to work hard at establishing a brand identity, but it's not impossible. As long as the content is good, as long as you write good wrestling, the audience will catch on eventually.
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The worst thing you can do when creating a fictional promotion is not have a purpose. I can only speak for myself of course, but diaries that feature user-created promotions that are basically the same as existing promotions turn me off immediately. Self and foolinc both created promotions that are different to anything else, which is why they're liked. The main problem is your starting roster. Starting in North America in 2008, there are basically two rosters you can hire: the Comically Useless Crap roster (as per LDW and CCW), and the Indy Darlings roster (as per Marcel's X-WA (which, while not technically user created, is basically as good as)). FCK and NEO are both great because they're something different. FCK uses the draft concept, which I'm not a great fan of but have to admit, the resulting diary is awesome. NEO just has some lesser-seen wrestlers, which give it an edge. So yeah... being original is important, but difficult.
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[quote=D-Lyrium;658769]FCK uses the draft concept, which I'm not a great fan of but have to admit, the resulting diary is awesome.[/quote] Cheers. The draft could be seen as me cherry-picking whatever characters I wanted, and making a diary with them, but in actuallity it was the result of a legitimate draft ran by Derek_B between like 20 board members to create a wacky C-Verse mod. The workers in my diary are the guys I either drafted, or signed as the game progressed... Although the mod's lack of National promotions have made it slightly too easy to get hold of top class talent.
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[QUOTE=wrestlingfan#1;658641]still off topic but I had to jump in here Panthro - Nunchucks, Liono - eye of thundera, Cheetara - Staff, wily kit and wily (Spelling?) kat - the two kids with magic pills ( i think thats where they got the ides for the different animal sponges inside the dissolvable capsules lol), Tigra - whip and last but certainly not least Snarf - the cook , haha. lol. By far one of my favorite cartoons of all time along with Silverhawks (i believe was the name). anyways back on topic. I did have a question when i first came into this thread, that I nearly forgot. What about a fictional fed with-in the C-Verse? Where as a diary surrounding a user created fed do you think there would be any interest in that? How would you ( used as a general term ) go about it?[/QUOTE] I might not fully agreed with FIN that your promotion needs a super realistic backstory, but he is right that it needs a purpose. NEO's purpose is simple. It's a 0/0/0 challenge game. I put my own spin on it from other takes on the concept, like D-Lyrium's (which was awesome), by going with a more serious product. While I have had a lot of crazy characters and a good bit of wrestlecrap (Startune Productions and the pink tiger suit anyone?), most 0/0/0 promotions go with just using the worst wrestlers possible and then give them ridiculous gimmicks to top it off. Additionally, I think the fact that no one was doing a diary like that at the time helped as well. Unless I change the layout of my diary in a major way, I'll never win Diary of the Month, but I'll take people starting up their own 0/0/0 diaries any day. :D As for going around creating the fed, I'll guess I'll talk about the roster. No matter what is the size of your fed, D-Lyrium is right. It's really easy to fall into the trap of hiring either a super roster or a comedy roster. My advice is to have a good mix of "aces," comedy jobbers, and lesser used wrestlers. Balance is the key.
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  • 2 weeks later...
I'm new here and I don't have the TEW 2008 game but I do have the freeware TEW 2005. Just new to writing diaries but I've started to write my first one. Its on TEW 2005 Freeware dynasties and its called [URL="http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47459"]DAVE: Doing The Impossible[/URL]. I know I'm new but goin over this diary, what tips can ya give for me to at least improve the diary??
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[QUOTE=D-Lyrium;658769]The worst thing you can do when creating a fictional promotion is not have a purpose. I can only speak for myself of course, but diaries that feature user-created promotions that are basically the same as existing promotions turn me off immediately. Self and foolinc both created promotions that are different to anything else, which is why they're liked. The main problem is your starting roster. Starting in North America in 2008, there are basically two rosters you can hire: the Comically Useless Crap roster (as per LDW and CCW), and the Indy Darlings roster (as per Marcel's X-WA (which, while not technically user created, is basically as good as)). FCK and NEO are both great because they're something different. FCK uses the draft concept, which I'm not a great fan of but have to admit, the resulting diary is awesome. NEO just has some lesser-seen wrestlers, which give it an edge. So yeah... being original is important, but difficult.[/QUOTE] Yay! I got a shout out! To clarify though, I did take a comically bad roster and am trying to act like they're indy darlings. It's meant to be a more realistic portrayal of what it's like at the bottom of the barrel.
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Not much of a tip. It's 3AM, midnight (:p and I feel like rambling), and I'm thinking of my diaries after noticing how popular the few new diaries are. I know it's no use "comparing" diaries or trying to write the best diary ever. I started paying attention on views and replies compared to the lenght of the diary. Then I noticed how wrong I've been thinking the whole day. It's not about the numbers of views. It's not about the numbers of replies. It's not about the amount of predictions you will get. It's about having fun and writing your own diary. Like everyone has said in this thread so many times, over and over again: Do whatever you want to do with it. Write it the way you want it to be written. It's your diary. I'm feeling a burnout of all the heavy writing since it takes a lot from a non-native speaker. I really envy you guys who can write these huge, extra long posts in such a little time as it's the language you've been using your whole life. One show takes me countless hours to write, I would say that it takes three to four times longer than average even though I'm getting better and faster. I noticed a lot of repetition in my GCG matches due to the fact that English is not my native language, same goes for CGC. I started rethinking my diaries. I have noticed how my diaries tend to stall when I can't play the actual game that much, and when I thought about it I haven't started a game for atleast over half a year that I didn't make a diary from. When the diary writing becomes more of a work than a hobby, it's time to take a pause and rethink everything, sort everything out. Know your strenghts. If it's wild characters, make them, use them. If it's complicated storylines, write them. If it's the matches, concentrate on them. Right now I'm leaning on doing more alts and characters and concentrating on the actual playing and lessening the amount of writing because quite frankly that is the worst part in my diaries; The actual writing and the english language in itself. I have to find a suitable layout for me in order to establish this new style, without just copy/paste the results. *sigh*.. Time to go to bed. Good night everybody. Just wanted to write this and share what was on my mind. :o
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Frankly, it boggles my mind that anyone, English speaking or not, can sit down and just write a show, start to finish, in one sitting. It literally takes me 7 days to write a show. Granted, I go into more detail than most, and I bounce between scenes like a... like a bouncing thing, but some days I'll get maybe 2 scenes locked, and a couple more with first drafts, and that'll be a good day. The way I was raised, I suppose.... Easily distracted procrastination complex... or dumb****ery to give it the technical term. I haven't played many non-diary games recently either. Nothing lasting at any rate. I'm doing a multiplayer thing atm, and I'm finding it REALLY weird booking for good ratings, rather than booking for a logical story. Almost as though I'm cheating.
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