Tha Black Phenom Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Carlito's manager Jesus, who got involved in that dreadful street fight at Armageddon 04.. Cena punching Carlito around in the crowd for 20 minutes lol. I didn't find Punk's reign as frustrating as Rey's.. jobbing to Henry and Khali back-to-back? Granted, they're monsters who could realistically overpower Rey, but I don't think such weaknesses should've been showcased like so. At least Punk won a PPV match, so -shrug- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moe Hunter Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 That was the point of his story arch. Let's face it, he's not exactly 6"6 and ripped. Still, he can wrestle circles around JBL and Batista. That *has* to count for something. We've seen him do all his wicked striking combos and his springboard clotheslines... why can't he go in whole hog against the big bruisers the same way he did against Mike Knox or Kevin Thorn? Albeit it was never as bad as Rey, but he should have been a bit more impressive. It looked like he was holding back in his title run. Kurt Angle was never huge (although of course later on he got really roided out), but he was Champion plenty of times, including in his rookie year and was booked solidly. He was a fantastic technical wrestler and gave it his all. Kurt fighting Brock is fairly comparable to Punk vs Batista, I would say. But look at those matches, and you see the difference in booking. Plus Punk got ripped out of his title reign and never really got his comeback. They could have built Survivor Series with a Team Punk vs Team Orton, instead they had Punk on Team HBK vs Team JBL - and HBK/JBL didn't even have a real feud yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justtxyank Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Still, he can wrestle circles around JBL and Batista. That *has* to count for something. We've seen him do all his wicked striking combos and his springboard clotheslines... why can't he go in whole hog against the big bruisers the same way he did against Mike Knox or Kevin Thorn? Albeit it was never as bad as Rey, but he should have been a bit more impressive. It looked like he was holding back in his title run. Kurt Angle was never huge (although of course later on he got really roided out), but he was Champion plenty of times, including in his rookie year and was booked solidly. He was a fantastic technical wrestler and gave it his all. Kurt fighting Brock is fairly comparable to Punk vs Batista, I would say. But look at those matches, and you see the difference in booking. Plus Punk got ripped out of his title reign and never really got his comeback. They could have built Survivor Series with a Team Punk vs Team Orton, instead they had Punk on Team HBK vs Team JBL - and HBK/JBL didn't even have a real feud yet. Kurt was definitely bigger and better cut than Punk, even in his early years. However, I agree completely that Punk could be booked better because of his style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CQI13 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 How long was his reign? Kurt's longest was around 4 months. And do you mean his style in WWE or his style from before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Everyone cannot be in the Main Event.. I get so confused listening to half of you sometimes. First you complain that there is no good people in for the mid-card title's, then you complain when there is good people up for the mid-card title's. Really don't understand where anyone is coming from most of the time. IS Punk believable as a Main Event title holder... In my opinion YES. Should he be in there? SURE. However, what about the Mid-Card titles... If you just have it for people people you don't like, or think is not very good, you then complain that the title holds no value. This is in no way putting down anyones idea's, thoughts, etc. I'm just really stumped on what people actually want is all. Perhaps if someone just said exactly what they want, instead of critiquing every single play that is made, it might be easier to follow. People complain that little guys Never get to compete for the Main titles, they put together a Main Event with some little guys in it, and everyone starts complaining... ? What do you really want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilts Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I want it to be my way and my way only! If they don't do what I would do then I am going to call them on it, and even if they do what I would do and it doesn't work out I'm gonna call them on it! I am a wrestling fan and that is my right!!!! In all seriousness though, I personally have no problem with Punk or Rey or any others being in the mid card, what I have a problem with though is guys who are in the main event and get the push when Punk and others don't, guys like JBL and Batista. Also, it used to be the case where mid carders could get pushed as well, whereas now it seems that mid carders are purely there to fill the roster and nothing else. At the end of the day, whether we moan about it or not, it doesn't matter, we still watch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 JBL is electric on the microphone right now. Really selling this slightly ridiculous storyline. He's earned his Main Event paycheque this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justtxyank Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I want it to be my way and my way only! If they don't do what I would do then I am going to call them on it, and even if they do what I would do and it doesn't work out I'm gonna call them on it! I am a wrestling fan and that is my right!!!! In all seriousness though, I personally have no problem with Punk or Rey or any others being in the mid card, what I have a problem with though is guys who are in the main event and get the push when Punk and others don't, guys like JBL and Batista. Also, it used to be the case where mid carders could get pushed as well, whereas now it seems that mid carders are purely there to fill the roster and nothing else. At the end of the day, whether we moan about it or not, it doesn't matter, we still watch it. I hardly watch anymore. I don't think guys like Rey Mysterio should ever be competing for the main event titles. It's ridiculous when it happens. Batista I hate, but I honestly don't get the hate for JBL. I love the guy. No, he's not a great wrestler, but he's believable as an opponent. He's stiff as hell, comes across as mean and tough, and when he wrestles a guy, I legit believe he can knock anyone in the ring out cold. To me he belongs in the main event. Not as a champion really, but as the guy who's always hanging around the main event to pose serious threats to everyone. I think they've booked him very well personally. Your point about mid-carders though is dead on. Being a mid-carder is an insult today because it means you are pretty much not being booked with any serious effort. The whole promotion revolves around a few main eventers. That is definitely not how it used to be. People used to order ppvs and tune it weekly to catch US title matches or IC title matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I hardly watch anymore. I don't think guys like Rey Mysterio should ever be competing for the main event titles. It's ridiculous when it happens. Batista I hate, but I honestly don't get the hate for JBL. I love the guy. No, he's not a great wrestler, but he's believable as an opponent. He's stiff as hell, comes across as mean and tough, and when he wrestles a guy, I legit believe he can knock anyone in the ring out cold. To me he belongs in the main event. Not as a champion really, but as the guy who's always hanging around the main event to pose serious threats to everyone. I think they've booked him very well personally. Your point about mid-carders though is dead on. Being a mid-carder is an insult today because it means you are pretty much not being booked with any serious effort. The whole promotion revolves around a few main eventers. That is definitely not how it used to be. People used to order ppvs and tune it weekly to catch US title matches or IC title matches. Having people like Punk going for those mid-card title's makes it very interesting to me though. I've even looked at those match's moreso then the main event match's (On TV), as I find the Regal/Punk thing pretty darn entertaining, and am awaiting to see what the heck they do with Layla next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfRoMaN36 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Still, he can wrestle circles around JBL and Batista. That *has* to count for something. We've seen him do all his wicked striking combos and his springboard clotheslines... why can't he go in whole hog against the big bruisers the same way he did against Mike Knox or Kevin Thorn? Because Mike Knox and Kevin Thorn, while they are big, they aren't as credible as JBL or Batista. In kayfabe we are to believe that JBL and Batista are some of the worlds strongest men. Mike Knox is still filler on ECW or whatever brand he's in now. Kurt Angle was never huge (although of course later on he got really roided out), but he was Champion plenty of times, including in his rookie year and was booked solidly. He was a fantastic technical wrestler and gave it his all. Kurt fighting Brock is fairly comparable to Punk vs Batista, I would say. But look at those matches, and you see the difference in booking. Comparing Punk and Angle as equals in an insult to Angle. Yes, Punk is good, at times he can be great. But Angle is as close to a 5 star wrestler as the E's had in a very long time. Not to mention he had an Olympic wrestling background (The man won gold with a broken neck!) While Brock won an NCAA championship. So you honestly have the opportunity to have an amazing technical match right there if they go toe to toe. Plus Punk got ripped out of his title reign and never really got his comeback. They could have built Survivor Series with a Team Punk vs Team Orton, instead they had Punk on Team HBK vs Team JBL - and HBK/JBL didn't even have a real feud yet. I agree with you here, the follow up was weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justtxyank Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Kurt Angle being compared to Punk is ridiculous. Not only is Kurt Angle one of the most talented in-ring performers of ALL time, but he was also bigger than Punk. Here he is at his earliest stage: http://www.dory-funk.com/Dory%20Kurt%20Angle.JPG here he is early in WWF http://www.wwe.com/content/media/images/377012/456962 and here is CM Punk http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00466/CM_Punk_466835a.jpg Now, CM Punk is by no mean's a little man, and I don't believe his size should hinder him at all really, but Kurt Angle was much more solidly built. I don't know what their height/weight is, but I'm willing to bet that Angle has him by at least 20 lbs of muscle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebsplex Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Having people like Punk going for those mid-card title's makes it very interesting to me though. I've even looked at those match's moreso then the main event match's (On TV), as I find the Regal/Punk thing pretty darn entertaining, and am awaiting to see what the heck they do with Layla next. One of the main problems I have with the midcard-titles in the WWE is not so much down to who they have vying for the belt, but the general inconsistency they use when promoting the belt itself. Maybe it's because I remember the days of Mr Perfect and Bret Hart running with the IC title, but too often the midcard belts are treated like filler material and even when there is some booking focus on them, the belts are still omitted from pay-per-views or downplayed significantly, going on the backburner again. I like the idea of the WWE using a bit of starpower to go for the belt (I think Punk is a great fit for it), but too often I feel that few of the WWE roster actually aspire to win and hold it. Apart from a few moments here and there, I think the last time the WWE really effectively used the IC title, was when Randy Orton held it during his Evolution days. I think the general status of the IC belt at the moment is reflected in how many people now just see it as an immediate depush, which is sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justtxyank Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 One of the main problems I have with the midcard-titles in the WWE is not so much down to who they have vying for the belt, but the general inconsistency they use when promoting the belt itself. Maybe it's because I remember the days of Mr Perfect and Bret Hart running with the IC title, but too often the midcard belts are treated like filler material and even when there is some booking focus on them, the belts are still omitted from pay-per-views or downplayed significantly, going on the backburner again. I like the idea of the WWE using a bit of starpower to go for the belt (I think Punk is a great fit for it), but too often I feel that few of the WWE roster actually aspire to win and hold it. Apart from a few moments here and there, I think the last time the WWE really effectively used the IC title, was when Randy Orton held it during his Evolution days. I think the general status of the IC belt at the moment is reflected in how many people now just see it as an immediate depush, which is sad. I remember an IC title match that was Orton? vs the IC champ and he just went for a DQ as soon as the bell rang, didn't care at all about the IC title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 One of the main problems I have with the midcard-titles in the WWE is not so much down to who they have vying for the belt, but the general inconsistency they use when promoting the belt itself. Maybe it's because I remember the days of Mr Perfect and Bret Hart running with the IC title, but too often the midcard belts are treated like filler material and even when there is some booking focus on them, the belts are still omitted from pay-per-views or downplayed significantly, going on the backburner again. I like the idea of the WWE using a bit of starpower to go for the belt (I think Punk is a great fit for it), but too often I feel that few of the WWE roster actually aspire to win and hold it. Apart from a few moments here and there, I think the last time the WWE really effectively used the IC title, was when Randy Orton held it during his Evolution days. I think the general status of the IC belt at the moment is reflected in how many people now just see it as an immediate depush, which is sad. I can understand that part, and really what your saying makes totally 100% sense to me. You also point out that Punk is a good fit, and I can tell that you could certainly get behind this if they really put the belt back where it belongs (as a centerpiece for talent to go after). That is what I'm hoping for as well. However, when I read posts about it being a "Job" type deal, I can't help but to wonder why complain, if when they do try to give it some esteem, it's a complete slap in the face to (Punk at this time) any name that goes for it. I understand fully that this is from bad booking of the past, but if they are going to seem as though they want to "correct" it, why bash them for it? Why not see it for what it is, and say something like... "I hope with Punk holding the title that it will finally get the recognition it deserves" instead of automatically deciding WWE hates PUNK, so they gave him a lesser belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattitudeV2 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Jesus (pronounced HEY-ZUS), Carkito's bodyguard/manager from the early days, got thrown over a ledge and then we never saw him again... Aaron Aguliera managed Carlito early in carlito's WWE days and had a feud John Cena.By the way Aguliera has went on to WSX with Evan Bourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think the Punk title reign was more about earning his spot than saying he couldn't go, and considering his title reign saw pretty consistent improvements in the ratings (relating to pushing a "new" guy), don't be surprised if you see Punk in a main event spot within the next year. Rey's another story, and the problem was that it hurts the credibility of your brand for a guy that tiny to hold the title for any length of time. An underdog chasing the title is fine, but once he gets it, there's nowhere to go but down. I still remember a friend of mine telling me the worst moment in WCW history was Rey pinning Kevin Nash during their feud in WCW. It really opened my eyes to the fact that some people want wrestling to be real, and will never accept a tiny Mexican man in a mask as a heavyweight champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Black Phenom Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 And why shouldn't they? Rey, kayfabe-wise, went toe-to-toe with some of the biggest heavyweights on the roster(and so for.. years), gained momentum against them, kayfabe-wise once again, yet he can't win a freakin' World title just once? If anything doesn't make sense, I think this fits the bill. Indeed, it's a matter of time before Punk goes back to the main-event. I forsee him being drafted to SmackDown! and being a true legit contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 And why shouldn't they? Rey, kayfabe-wise, went toe-to-toe with some of the biggest heavyweights on the roster(and so for.. years), gained momentum against them, kayfabe-wise once again, yet he can't win a freakin' World title just once? If anything doesn't make sense, I think this fits the bill. Indeed, it's a matter of time before Punk goes back to the main-event. I forsee him being drafted to SmackDown! and being a true legit contender. Yeah, but if you REALLY LOOK at the match-ups, like this last one when he was going "toe to Toe" with Kane. It was visably obvious, even though Kane is great at it, that Kane was doing everything he could to make those two guys (Mysterio and Kingston) look formidable. IF you can realistically say "I believe that could happen" then I guess I just have to let you live in that world with whomever wants to "Believe" with you. When you throw in a bit of realism, no matter how flashy the opponant looks.. A guy half the size is not going to look like he can really do it against another guy that is even halfway credible (like Kane). Heck, it's hard even for Mike Knox, but he at least isn't that hard to ignore (far as size difference). Little guys can achieve things, but it's very unrealistic to act like they are actually believable. They earn it mainly because of the hard work and dedication, and loyal fanbase that makes you say "you know what, I don't care, I want him to have it". But if you didn't know either person, and watched it from an outside point of view, there is no way I can believe anyone thinks this is something that could happen on an everyday occasion... Once or twice, perhaps every now and then, yes... But it's just not as believable as some make it sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 It also depends somewhat on styles: a guy like Tajiri could work over a guy's joints with stiff kicks that looked somewhat credible, but Rey's offense has always been the lucha style, which looks great against a guy like Chavo Guerrero, but not so great against a guy like Kane. Also, people talking about Punk's weight need to recognize that Punk is over 6 feet tall and lanky (see: Edge), and his outspoken "no drugs, no alcohol" background makes him a great champion for all the same reasons Bret Hart was a great champ in the mid-90's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moe Hunter Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Mike Knox is still filler on ECW or whatever brand he's in now. I believe he's getting a World Title shot in the Elimination Chamber at NWO. Comparing Punk and Angle as equals in an insult to Angle. Yes, Punk is good, at times he can be great. But Angle is as close to a 5 star wrestler as the E's had in a very long time. Not to mention he had an Olympic wrestling background (The man won gold with a broken neck!) While Brock won an NCAA championship. So you honestly have the opportunity to have an amazing technical match right there if they go toe to toe. No doubt Angle is a phenominal wrestler. I'll not say a bad thing about his abilities or his drive. These days he seems to have lost his mind, but in WWF/E he absolutely was the best overall wrestler they've had... maybe ever, really. Bret Hart was a great technical wrestler, but not that great a talker, whereas Kurt pulled that off too - everything from a goofy cowboy hat to saying he wants to commit beastiality with Sharmell. I'm just pointing out that Kurt isn't as big as Batista, but he's WAY more talented, and it shows. Punk is the same way - we've *seen* that he's talented. Anyone who's seen him in ROH knows that he's even *more* talented than we've seen in WWE. My whole point is that he easily could be booked as a much stronger competitor, especially when he's got the Championship to hold on to. I remember an IC title match that was Orton? vs the IC champ and he just went for a DQ as soon as the bell rang, didn't care at all about the IC title. Yeah, that was just before last year's Rumble, against Jeff. Followed by the "Swanton off the rigging" spot. It also depends somewhat on styles: a guy like Tajiri could work over a guy's joints with stiff kicks that looked somewhat credible, but Rey's offense has always been the lucha style, which looks great against a guy like Chavo Guerrero, but not so great against a guy like Kane. Another point towards Punk - he's about the striking and BJJ stuff, he can be seen as legitimately able to take down a bigger guy. Also, people talking about Punk's weight need to recognize that Punk is over 6 feet tall and lanky (see: Edge), and his outspoken "no drugs, no alcohol" background makes him a great champion for all the same reasons Bret Hart was a great champ in the mid-90's. Edge, Jericho, Hart... All people I thought of mentioning before, but Edge and Jericho have never been Face world champions (always shown as sneaky), and I sadly haven't seen anywhere near as much Bret Hart in his prime as I would like, so don't feel qualified to comment on how he was booked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Black Phenom Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Yeah, but if you REALLY LOOK at the match-ups, like this last one when he was going "toe to Toe" with Kane. It was visably obvious, even though Kane is great at it, that Kane was doing everything he could to make those two guys (Mysterio and Kingston) look formidable. IF you can realistically say "I believe that could happen" then I guess I just have to let you live in that world with whomever wants to "Believe" with you. When you throw in a bit of realism, no matter how flashy the opponant looks.. A guy half the size is not going to look like he can really do it against another guy that is even halfway credible (like Kane). Heck, it's hard even for Mike Knox, but he at least isn't that hard to ignore (far as size difference). Little guys can achieve things, but it's very unrealistic to act like they are actually believable. They earn it mainly because of the hard work and dedication, and loyal fanbase that makes you say "you know what, I don't care, I want him to have it". But if you didn't know either person, and watched it from an outside point of view, there is no way I can believe anyone thinks this is something that could happen on an everyday occasion... Once or twice, perhaps every now and then, yes... But it's just not as believable as some make it sound. Lol, of course you wouldn't! because you wouldn't have seen Rey going up against heavyweights for years.. and not getting demolished in every one of them. Looking at a couple of matches from him against big dogs closely.. yeah, you can't ignore what you mentioned, but his match-ups against big guys been happening since forever to a point where they made us believe he can potentially defeat numerous heavyweights over the course of a while. I did say 'kayfabe-wise', didn't I? And they did it well. Because even in WCW, Rey was owning heavyweights left and right, the only problem was it looked much more unrealistic. On that end, then it does make sense. As a kid I watched Rey get the pin over Kevin Nash and Scott Norton and it looked forced, alright. But in the WWE, they kept going at it, and found a way to show us how it could happen - the guy has a different style, the whole power/size vs. speed M.O. which is often used and mentioned in various sports/activities. So yes, I can say "I believe this could happen" when you look at the guy's history - and how the in-ring casualties haven't occurred in every single one of his matches. And how do you define 'every now and then'? Even when Rey became World champion, he didn't really own everybody either. He got jobbed numerous times, they pulled the "I'll-pull-out-all-stops-when-my-title-is-on-the-line" spiel on him, which in retrospect.. did fit, even though I first disliked that. -shrug- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djthefunkchris Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Bassically, you agree with me. So I've made my point. As for the question about "Everynow and then", you kind of answered that yourself (I'll-pull-out-all-stops-when-my-title-is-on-the-line). Every now and then, it's nice to see someone like Mysterio, or Evan Bourne, etc... Heck, even Jamie Noble, going over some really huge guys that you know wouldn't normally lose. When they are having a good night, and the other guy isn't. That's another way to look at it. HHH and Angle really made Mysterio look great on more then a few occasions throughout recent history, and I loved every bit of it. I'm just saying that it should NOT be the norm, or I'll stop believing it. I can believe anyone can get lucky/have a great day, and the other guy not have such a great day. But I can't see it happening over and over again, sooner or later the big guy is going to catch him. EDIT: My viewpoint is kind of getting lost though, far as the topic is concerned. I have no problem with Mysterio, Punk, or any other small guys being in the elimination chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickC13573 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 I have a question. Why is Kane in there when he hasnt been relevant to the title picture in a serious way in How long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CQI13 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Because he's big. And he's a name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickC13573 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Because he's big. And he's a name. true. however, they are making it really easy to say that this will be a successful defense of the title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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