A dead sport?

[GatorBait19]

With the reveal of Alex Rodriguez using steroid and admitting to it does it really kill baseball?

 

Now yes baseball has been on life support for a couple of years now (in my view since the last labor strike) but now with arguably one of the best players ever admitting to the use of performance enhancing drugs does this truly signal the death of Major League Baseball as one of the top three sports in America?

 

Football has had people use steroids but not in the fashion like baseball, and Basketball is more known for people like Josh Howard just wanting to smoke

 

But with all of this besides wondering if baseball is dead, who else is to blame, Jose Canseco, or in my belief Bud Selig

[Comradebot]

With the reveal of Alex Rodriguez using steroid and admitting to it does it really kill baseball?

 

Now yes baseball has been on life support for a couple of years now (in my view since the last labor strike) but now with arguably one of the best players ever admitting to the use of performance enhancing drugs does this truly signal the death of Major League Baseball as one of the top three sports in America?

 

Football has had people use steroids but not in the fashion like baseball, and Basketball is more known for people like Josh Howard just wanting to smoke

 

But with all of this besides wondering if baseball is dead, who else is to blame, Jose Canseco, or in my belief Bud Selig

 

I blame the MLB itself. Alot of the players who use steroids do so to get noticed, because people don't care as much about baseball as they used to. If they weren't racing to break the home run record then no one would care.

 

And why does no one care? Crap like the lack of a real salary cap for one. I'm sorry, but there's nothing interesting in knowing that only a few big market teams will ever truly be competitive, and the moment a smaller market team has a decent year they'll swoop in and use overwhelming amounts of cash to buy up any and all talented players.

 

And no one buys merchandise from a team with no big names and no chance at winning most of their games. Which means the teams make less money, meaning they can't compete financially with the larger teams, ect.

 

And you can't tell me the MLB didn't know that there was rampant steroid usage in their league before the last couple of years.

 

Really, that's my problem. If the MLB wants to make me care about their sport again, they need to level the playing field. If they crack down HARD on steroid usage (you know, maybe kick Barry Bonds out of the league and void his stats from the record books) and institue a league salary cap (every team gets to spend the exact same amount of money on players), then they'd do just that.

[Dublin Sky]

I believe baseball is more or less like Boxing these days.....still has it's following but another sport has topped it. I believe people are more into football these days, and people are more into MMA....as compared to baseball and boxing

[GardnerFTW]

I think it will have little to no effect on baseball. People who are fans will remain fans, people who aren't won't. Baseball viewing is down from 10-15 ago, but we're a few seasons into the steroid scandals (with huge names being involved), and viewership has yet to have any significant argument. I think most baseball fans have come to the mindset that players did/are still doing steroids. Sure some people will be turned off by it, but I don't think its the major impact that sports radio and television want to make it out to be.

 

As odd as it is, I think A-Rod getting caught could actually have some positive impact on baseball in the short-term. In as much, as bad, small-market teams need something to draw people to games with the current economy. Any time a side-show comes to town, interest in a game will often times increase.

 

Overall, is a star player using steroids a good thing for the game? Of course not, but baseball, while no longer having the largest fan base, still draws reasonable TV numbers (not by network standards, but solid for cable stations). And baseball fans perhaps are the most committed to the game of all American sports in their obsession with stats and such.

 

Just my opinion though.

[Comradebot]

I believe baseball is more or less like Boxing these days.....still has it's following but another sport has topped it. I believe people are more into football these days, and people are more into MMA.

 

Its true. I'm hard pressed to find people who don't like football (atleast compared to folks who are diehard baseball fans).

 

Though I don't think I'd put MMA in the same category as football or even baseball quite yet. I'm glad to see that its starting to be more than something with a more or less cult following, but I'd rank it more along the lines of hockey. Its an interesting sport that can be fun to watch, but its still a far cry from being the new national past time.

[Dublin Sky]

I agree with you 100% but i'd still put it ahead of boxing.....i'm so sad that boxing has kind of died out in the last 10-15 years. I never really cared for baseball not even when the world series was on.....I live a few minutes from Tiger Field and Commerica park and i've only been to a game about nine times in my life.

[CQI13]

MMA in the US, perhaps. Worldwide it's bigger than anything the US sports leagues have to offer.

 

As for the argument at hand, I don't think it does that much. Rumors were out there (and Canseco yet again tells the truth). Yes, the league knew about it before the last few years. They knew about it during the Sosa/McGwire race. But there was a butt every 18", so what do they care.

 

A lot of teams aren't profitable nowadays, simply because of poor business decisions. Unfortunately, they try to pass that along to the tax payers, or threaten to leave the city. If it was that easy, they would relocate with more ease. Truth is, there aren't that many cities out there that can support a baseball team along with other sports. And while the argument can be made about a cap, it won't ever happen. Especially in baseball. Specifically, because in that sport, once they tell you what's the most you can spend, they'll have to include what the minimum is. And owners who try to run a fiscally responsible team, will balk at that. For example, a few years ago, when the Marlins were making a push towards the playoffs (I think it was the year after the WS, maybe 2), attendance was down for a number of reasons. Viewership/Listenership was still very high. But when they were in it going into September, crowds started showing up. They obviously stopped once they were mathematically eliminated. Point is, someone was asked how the team was doing financially. Their response was something along the lines "If we sold out every game, through the World Series, we might break even." Now that's with a small payroll. Probably under what a salary floor would require them to spend.

 

And the Marlins, with the lowest payroll, and the Rays, with the second lowest, had very good seasons last year.

[GatorBait19]

Here is another thing I think

 

1) Baseball has horrible marketing, the only show LA, or NY teams with the cubs and Red Sox. Now yes those are your big teams but they are not going to be in the World Series every year. Phillies and Rays was a very good World Series that saw the future of Baseball (speed, pitching and Defense with a splash of power) but yet no one watched it. Why not because the two teams weren't good, but I believe because baseball doesn't know how to market its sport

 

2) NFL is the biggest sport in America hands down, but a lot of that in my view goes to Paul Tagliabue for securing the Big Network Contract, now with out would NFL still be big, yes, but I think it defiantly pushed them to different heights quicker but also Pete Rozelle the man before Paul did a lot of work to help NFL as well

 

3) Baseball has more history in American than any of these sports, it's or past time but yet they don't play off of that

 

4) Season is way too long

 

5) Yes a Salary Cap is needed, but then that makes me think of Basketball who has a 90 million dollar cap, that you can go over at anytime and pay a tax, but the point of that rant is 90 mill for 12 players 3 reserves? Anyways an 75 million dollar cap or up to 85 would do baseball just, it would level out the playing field year round

 

6) Like someone said, but with a twist, don't strike names or stats from the books, just put them with the famous *

 

7) A new commish. NFL is a prime example of what can happen when you have the right man at the helm, and to me Selig sucks and always has

 

8) Players need to stop being greedy in a time of need and just take the offers given to them but hey Manny was just being Manny

[jesterx7769]

I would be more surprised if A-Rod and other's didn't use steroids.

[GruntMark]

Nah, this doesnt kill the sport. He's just another cheater in a long line of cheaters in the MLB. And the diehards will forgive him and feign anger when anyone questions any records that have his name attached.

 

The mess is mostly Selig's fault, or at least, he should take first blame. Its not hard to see what model the NFL is using for success and try to emulate that. Instead MLB goes off in the other direction to do its own frakin thing and watches small markets suffer and tv viewship fall.

 

/slow clap

 

I wish we all could be so poor at our jobs.

 

As for the players, as an eco major, I cant fault them for taking the natural price the market offers. Some may call it greed, but I prefer to think of it as enlightened self interest. Afterall, if some old billionaire was willing to pay me mega-millions to stand around and occasionally swing a bat, I'd be on that like a fat kid on cake.

[ACCBiggz]

If baseball is on life support someone should really inform the fans who continously break the attendance records every year.

[UFC-KING]

I blame the MLB itself. Alot of the players who use steroids do so to get noticed, because people don't care as much about baseball as they used to. If they weren't racing to break the home run record then no one would care.

 

And why does no one care? Crap like the lack of a real salary cap for one. I'm sorry, but there's nothing interesting in knowing that only a few big market teams will ever truly be competitive, and the moment a smaller market team has a decent year they'll swoop in and use overwhelming amounts of cash to buy up any and all talented players.

 

And no one buys merchandise from a team with no big names and no chance at winning most of their games. Which means the teams make less money, meaning they can't compete financially with the larger teams, ect.

 

And you can't tell me the MLB didn't know that there was rampant steroid usage in their league before the last couple of years.

 

Really, that's my problem. If the MLB wants to make me care about their sport again, they need to level the playing field. If they crack down HARD on steroid usage (you know, maybe kick Barry Bonds out of the league and void his stats from the record books) and institue a league salary cap (every team gets to spend the exact same amount of money on players), then they'd do just that.

 

Kind of off subject, but I really do like your new avatar Comrade

 

Now back on track, I completely agree with this statement, Baseball is probably nearing it's end and is becoming more like entertainment (You know what I mean) instead of a real sport nowadays

[cappyboy]

I wouldn't say baseball is dead. I don't think I'd say any of the major sports tend to see as dead are truly DEAD. Baseball, hockey, boxing and horse racing may all be suffering. But they all still go on holding events and still have all their marquee events. World Series, Stanley Cups, title fights and Triple Crowns still occur every year. They may not hold the same prestige they once did for various management issues at the top. But they still go on.

 

Heck, of the four sports I listed, the only one that could see its "big leagues" go away and be truly damaged is horse racing. Without the pull of the Triple Crown and your graded stakes races, the tracks would probably have trouble justifying the lower level races. But the atmosphere of minor league and little league baseball would be pretty much unaffected if MLB weren't there. Ditto hockey. Especially in Canada with all the junior league teams and the bonding that happens between youths at that level. Boxing would probably still have the Golden Gloves and the Olympics and maybe even the military. MLB, the NHL, the NTRA and whatever boxing commissions exist may be staggering as organizations. But except for horse racing, that's just one (albeit the most visible) level of those respective sports. Heck, I challenge someone to find me the last sport that truly, totally died out. I get the impression the task would be a difficult one.

[justtxyank]

lol

 

Baseball is so close to dying that they are breaking their own attendance records every year and are raking in more money than they ever have. They are now closer to the NFL in profits than they are to the NBA. And while the NFL is clearly the most popular sport in America, the gap has actually shrunk in the last 5 years, not expanded.

 

Baseball is not in any danger of dying. You should stop making threads.

[GatorBait19]

Quick question

 

 

Yes they are breaking their attendance records year after year but it shows when the American League Champs still rank in the bottom 5 of baseball in attendance

 

Second where do you get the profits from, this is the same league that four years ago two teams might had to borrow money from baseball to pay for their payrolls

 

 

Second baseball is a dying sport; people are coming out left and right who have been on steroids.

 

Third yeah attendance is up but ratings are down, don't believe me... where did the World Series rank this year

 

Four it's got to be easy for attendance to continuously improve every year when there are 162 games a year to watch, also Cubs, Red Sox, Yanks, and Mets are the only teams you can pretty much guarantee will give you a sellout, plus stadiums are getting bigger not smaller.

 

and fifth who do I care what you tell me to do, you come here and give no facts about what you are complaining about, everyone knows the attendance record gets broken each year, the announce it each time, but what they don't mention is the slip in ratings.

 

Also I would really love to see where you got your info about the profit MLB makes compared to NBA and NFL

 

 

And I wasn't saying it was a dead sport which is why I put the question mark, I wanted to know what people thought.

[GatorBait19]

Plus didn't NFL break its own attendance record in 07? you have to remember that since the strike 10 new stadiums have come into play and 2 teams and the Marlins and Rockies just got done with their first year

 

So the strike destroyed baseball, there isn't a doubt in most people’s minds about that, and the summer of 98 brought it back to like and attendance went up

[NickC13573]

I believe baseball is more or less like Boxing these days.....still has it's following but another sport has topped it. I believe people are more into football these days, and people are more into MMA....as compared to baseball and boxing

 

I believe that the NBA went into "Boxing days" a couple years ago as well. As with NHL and MLS

[justtxyank]

you just said it again

 

"Second baseball is a dying sport"

 

All the evidence is to the contrary. You may personally be turned off to the sport because of the steroid issue, but the fact is you are in the minority. More fans are going to the games than ever before, more fans are buying merchandise, more fans are buying MLB.com subcscriptions, Mlb extra innings subscriptions, etc. The ratings of the WS are down yes, but so what? That's one measure of the sport that's weak, but they are still above NBA ratings. A dying sport wouldn't see it's revenues ballooning.

 

It amuses me that you say I'm arguing without facts, when your entire point is based on pure emotional speculation.

 

However, to humor you and your silly thread:

 

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/115894

Article puts baseball revenue at just below the NFL's total revenue (6 billion range)

 

http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/25/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm

Here is a better breakdown of that article

 

When it comes to sales, the National Football League used to dwarf Major League Baseball the way a defensive lineman towers over a batboy.

 

Not any longer. Baseball will finish this year with just over $6 billion in revenue, according to Bob DuPuy, Major League Baseball's president and chief operating officer.

 

To put that into context, that puts baseball right on the heels of the more than $6 billion in revenue reported by the National Football League in 2006.

 

Yes, baseball has a lot more games from which to generate sales than the NFL, but that has always been the case. Simply put, baseball has done a much better job in the past few years of boosting its revenue beyond traditional sources, i.e. ticket sales and television broadcasting.

 

Baseball's sales have increased 50 percent from 2004 and have doubled since 2000. The NFL's sales grew at roughly half of baseball's pace during the same time period.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18235598/wid/11915829/

Three years ago, the 30 Major League Baseball (MLB) teams posted an operating loss (in the sense of earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) of $57 million. Last season, they earned a record $496 million. Despite its ongoing steroids scandal, baseball has made a big comeback thanks to labor peace, new ballparks, tight races to qualify for the postseason and improved marketing.

 

http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/16/baseball-team-values-biz-sports-baseball08-cx_mo_kb_0416baseballintro.html

The key numbers show that the national pastime is more popular than ever. In 2007, baseball broke its attendance record for the fourth consecutive season when 79.5 million fans hit the turnstiles. A big plus: Interleague games, where teams in the American and National leagues square off against each other, averaged 34,900 fans per game, 15% more than intraleague contests.

 

http://baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/baseballs_revenue_sharing_problem

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/yankees_signed_teixeira/

MLB's revenues have been exploding since 2003 and player salaries have simply not matched this increase in revenues. In 2003, players in baseball made 63% of league revenues. In 2008, that number appears to be 52% of league revenues, or less than any of the other major professional leagues in the US, which all have salary caps.

 

People speculating that baseball is in trouble, dead, dying, not doing well, etc. are simply in error. As to your point about baseball teams borrowing money from mlB to stay afloat, the NFL institutes a massive revenue sharing program to keep its teams afloat. If each team were left to its own indepedent revenue to survive, several teams would buckle.

[GatorBait19]

So what that the 7 biggest games of the year are down, you're right good how stupid of me, the MLB has over what let's calculate

 

30 teams

 

162 games each year

 

15 x 162= 2430 games a year

 

I got 15 because two teams play a game. I could be wrong if I am just correct me

 

So MLB plays 2430 games a year and have attendance of 72 million....

 

 

32 teams

 

16 games a year

 

16 x 16= 256 games

 

Once again I could be wrong on the math

 

So NFL does 2174 less games than MLB and they still do 22 million in attendance

 

Okay just for fun let's try something, what would NFL attendance be yearly if they ran I don't know just 500 games a year?

 

 

And good facts truly I don't like the first two because they don't really give me numbers it's more hear say, but the others good job you came prepared

 

And no I am not doing it off of pure emotion; did you know the strike almost killed baseball? Did you know there was a World Series that year?

 

 

We both have good arguments no doubt, but to sit here and go, o well MLB is almost making as much as NFL well that's great, but NFL makes more in merchandise. than MLB, and if they played as many games MLB would never touch them, so to say that is extremely dumb, that's like saying European soccer makes more in revenue than NFL.... really now way, I mean people all over the world watch that only what a couple thousand outside of America what football, and also Baseball is a worldwide sport almost, but yet they can't get people to watch the games on TV?

 

And MLB also has revenue sharing; it's what kept teams like the Twins, Rays and Marlins alive back in 04, but NFL teams make a profit of 24 mill. Before the revenue sharing happens, it was just in the news before the super bowl and players were complain about the owners opting out of the labor agreement because the owners thought the player 60% of revenue sharing was way too much

[justtxyank]

The NFL generates the profits it does in large part because of a limited schedule that allows them to charge exorbitant prices for their product. If they ran 162 games a year, they would see massive diminishing returns.

 

And yes, the strike did almost kill baseball. That was over a decade ago though.

 

 

No, you do not have an argument that baseball is a dying sport. You just don't. You can argue all you want that less and less people care about the World Series, but there are tons of reasons to explain that; poor marketing of regional teams, less national connection to regional teams due to poor distribution of games nationwide for the past decade, etc. You can't argue that the sport is dying though when more people are attending the games, buying their merchandise, purchasing subscriptions to watch on the internet and out of market, etc. You just can't make that argument and be taken seriously.

[GatorBait19]

When was the last time you played baseball seriously?

 

 

You sit there and go o hey attendance is up, you're absolutely right, but attendance means nothing when people don't even watch the games

 

I have already talked about how crappy the marketing team is

 

Are you one of those callers that think Bud Selig is doing a great job as commish, because you are one of few, and yeah argue he has been commish for a while, doesn't mean he is getting any better.

 

Baseball is a dying sport and it makes me sad to say. But you'll keep saying that profits are up and attendance is great even though allot can be laid to the fact that stadiums and more teams have helped that. What about the days where baseball had 12 teams that played 145 games or so and people went to every game, Baseball is America's past time for a reason because people played their hearts out and didn't need to cheat

 

But now every great star is being listed as a steroid user and some other thing that tarnish the game.

 

 

Are you the same person who thinks wrestling is still at the top because they still break attendance records and set high profits, even thought T.V ratings aren't what they use to be.

 

There is no way in hell you can sit here and tell me that just because someone set profit records even after the face of the sport just announced that he took steroids for three years two of which he won the MVP, let me guess Bonds is innocent and Rose should be in the hall even though he betted on the game

 

Ford and Chevy had record profits a couple of years ago and looked what happened to them

 

And did you even watch the world series dude, you keep saying I am arguing that the World Series had less 25% less viewers than last year and I believe it was the 2nd lowest rated world series ever, and they have had what 104 of them

 

Here's a fun fact the Super bowl this year had less viewers and it still ranked second all-time, this of course is with a team that no one thought really had a chance and no one outside of Phoenix truly cared about

 

and if NFL ran more games I am sure they wouldn't charge what they do for ticket prices I don't believe they even think they could make it that long with that high of prices

[justtxyank]

I'm not even sure what you arguing at this point. Your sentence structure is awful and it makes it very difficult for me to follow your thought process.

 

Is the WS rating the only metric by which you are stating that MLB is dying? I mean, if profits, attendance, merchandise, multimedia subscriptions, overall competitiveness, parity, etc. are NOT the things to evaluate the health of a game, what is?

 

Don't tell me that the NFL is doing great. With all the players linked to criminal incidents, it's obvious the NFL is dying. I don't care about their profits, attendance, etc., all I care about is that Plaxico Burress shot himself.

 

As far as A-Rod being on steroids, you have your years confused. He was on the juice from 01-03 and won the MVP in one of those years. Since he's been off the juice he's won two additional MVPs.

 

As far as playing baseball, I quit due to injury in high school. Why is that relevant?

 

I also never made a comment on Bud Selig's job as commish, Barry Bonds and Pete Rose getting in the Hall of Fame etc.

 

Yes, I watched the World Series last year. But so what? Baseball teams are poorly advertised as national interests. Each team is interesting only to its own region, save for a few powerhouses. That's a problem they have been working to correct, and they are seeing signs of progress, but it's a slow process.

 

Anyway, I know I can't change your mind so this will be my last post on the subject. If you want to believe that baseball is dying because a player admitted to steroid usage and that some ratings were down, go ahead. It's illogical, but it's your right.

[CQI13]

Yet they charge regular prices for exhibition games. If NFL had more games, it would still even out. It's no longer 1 of 8 home games, so it's not that big a rush to go. If you miss it, you still have a LOT of other chances. Again, how can you compare NFL viewership/attendance to MLB? MLB has series. You miss one? Big deal, at least 3 others to watch. NFL you miss one, and you're done. Compare NFL to NCAA. One and done.

[GatorBait19]

NFL is a dying sport. WOW?

 

And MLB isn't dying just because of the World Series; there is also poor viewership, and steroids

 

And you are right A-Rod won once and finished second another due to the fact his team sucked and another Steroid man Miguel Tejada

 

Okay so let's look at the facts

 

1) A three time MVP winner and 12 time all-star used steroids for three known years and in those three years he jacked 52, 57, and 47 HR

 

2) Barry Bonds has multiple HR records and multiple MVP award and ten new ball caps (his head kept getting bigger)

 

3) The greatest pitcher of the modern era, is the biggest liar of the modern era as well

 

4) The man who introduced steroids into the game as he states has been black balled but A-Rod will still have a job tomorrow.

 

5) The Yanks have had what 6 players linked to steroid use now and they all came out and admitted to it if it came out when they were on the yanks, man so if you sign here Mr. Giambi we will stick this there but if you get caught you need to tell people you messed up sorry

 

6) 11 MVP award winners have been connected with steroids (19 different times these 11 have won the award) and that's just for now

 

7) and a couple CY Young winners

 

8) Multiple All-Stars

 

9) But yet NFL is still the dying sport?

 

10) The two men who saved baseball, both used the needle, one might have even corked his bat!

 

11) Tampa Bay Rays just announced this year was the first time they have ever recorded over 10 million in profit; hell the Lions even did that this year!

 

Listen like I said I am not trying to argue this, I agree baseball doesn't know how to market even thought I don't agree they are getting better unlike you, but I have played this game forever and I am even on a company softball team for fun, but to seriously sit here and say it isn't in trouble with its poster boy admitting to cheating is crazy

 

Yeah Plaxico Burress shot himself but he was suspended and he wasn't a poster boy, and look an Elijah Dukes of the Nat's go read about his time with the Rays and what he did and said and he is considered by most to be a five tool can't miss prospect

 

Look at Josh Hamilton, he did coke and we all love him!

 

Speed, Defense, and Pitching that is the new baseball, and that is the baseball I can't wait to watch more of, but from now on when some big dude walks to the plate and cranks out 45 to 55 a year people are going to question them, that is why baseball is a dying sport

[ACCBiggz]

Fact: Baseball is not a dying sport.

 

End of thread.