extreme rules.......with spoilers

[CQI13]

Lazor, I get what you're saying.

 

Psychology aside (since that's not uncommon), I would agree with justtxyank on everything else.

 

He is horrid on the mic (that hasn't changed ever).

Aside from the paint issue, he's just a skinny dude. And I didn't see people rallying behind that one jobber that kept getting squashed in ECW.

And back to the Psychology (even though I said I would skip that)...By not selling his injuries, it turns into a spotfest from his side.

 

I will concede that a lot of people do enjoy that. But if he's gone, I won't be sad.

[justtxyank]

I think you're really judging current Jeff Hardy through 2002 goggles if you really think that. Trashing Hardy's psychology is a little like trashing Hogan's psychology. Yes, he doesn't always "sell" his injuries, but he tells a story in the ring that generally involves him getting the crap beaten out of him. Hardy has a natural charisma and a connection with the fans that is among the best out there. I remember Foley in his book talking about how face Cactus Jack couldn't really connect to the fans in WCW because the fans thought he couldn't be hurt and so didn't rally around him: Jeff Hardy is pretty much the exact opposite of that. The guy's got a unique look and he connects with fans, and anybody can see it. I had an argument ten years ago where my friend insisted Matt Hardy would be more successful because he was a better "all rounder" but even then it was obvious Jeff was the one the crowd's rallied behind.

 

I get that everybody loves the heels, but it's not hard to at least recognize why a guy like Hardy is a big deal.

 

Also, it's not that hard to understand the Batista booking: the guy sucks in the ring and on the mic, but he's BIG. If he doesn't win the occasional big match, he won't stay over: he doesn't go around having memorable feuds with... anyone, really. A guy like that has to be booked to win the occasional big match just to make sure everyone knows he's a main eventer (and not Kane V.2).

 

I'm not judging from 2002 goggles. His basics have improved since then, but in general I don't think he's gotten all that much better.

 

You say he tells a story in the ring of getting beat up constantly, but I don't think he looks any better doing it than Spike Dudley ever did.

 

To each his own, but like I said I don't get it. The natural connection to the fans is what in fact puzzles me. Why do they connect?

 

When I watch his matches I think to myself, "I didn't see a single move that looks like it would actually hurt." His punches are worse than Jericho's (which is an insult) and his moveset is generally weak imo.

 

I'm glad other people enjoy him, but I just don't see it. I liked him as a midcarder and as a tag team worker, but that's it.

[lazorbeak]

But Spike Dudley and Colin Delaney look like they have no business in a wrestling ring. Hardy is lanky but he's also six feet tall and athletic looking, so while I'd agree he's at about the same level as Spike Dudley in terms of taking a beating, he also has the size and look to get people to buy into his offense.

[CQI13]

The best match I remember seeing Hardy in was against Umaga the month after Jericho's return. He and Umaga seemed to click, because even if he didn't win, then at least he sometimes looked like he would pull it off. But his WM25 match was OK, I thought. And his ladder dive onto Edge the year Kennedy won MITB was "cool" but beyond asinine in my opinion.

[justtxyank]

But Spike Dudley and Colin Delaney look like they have no business in a wrestling ring. Hardy is lanky but he's also six feet tall and athletic looking, so while I'd agree he's at about the same level as Spike Dudley in terms of taking a beating, he also has the size and look to get people to buy into his offense.

 

He may look more athletic, but his move set is weak. I mean seriously, when you watch his matches can you convince yourself that what he is doing actually HURTS his opponents? Because I can't.

 

It's my biggest gripe about Edge's finisher. His spear would not hurt. Not even in kayfabe reality. I'll take the Legdrop of Doom over the Edge Spear.

[FINisher]

A really good PPV. Mysterio vs. Jericho was a classic, it was way better than I had expected. MOTN, certainly. Dreamer wins, yes! Batista wins, no! Jeff Hardy wins, yes! CM Punk wins, YES!!. Really good PPV. A lot of stuff that you would just fast forward but Mysterio vs. Jericho and the Main event and CM Punk ending did it for me. Loved it.

 

But where was all the blood, weapons, tables? :E "One night WWE goes to extreme", yeah right. Oh and btw, I'm going to see RAW Live! on Wednesday here in Helsinki, Finland. I hope that the guys are alright after the PPV. Damn draft ruined everything, so many wrestlers that I would have liked to see joined SD! Curses!

[justtxyank]

Why didn't you expect much out of Jericho/Rey?

[FINisher]

Why didn't you expect much out of Jericho/Rey?

 

I expected a lot from it and before I even saw the event I thought it was going to be the MOTN, of course. But it delivered even more than I thought it would. Good feud, awesome workers, good chemistry.. The ending, the storytelling in that match. It was a really good match, for a WWE match, only Taker vs. Michaels at WM has been better this year than this Mysterio vs. Jericho.

[Remianen]

Aside from the paint issue, he's just a skinny dude. And I didn't see people rallying behind that one jobber that kept getting squashed in ECW.

 

Umm, what jobber are you referring to? I know you don't mean Mikey Whipwreck.

 

He may look more athletic, but his move set is weak.

 

Umm, why do you even watch WWE? 90% of the roster's moveset is weak. I don't think there are 5 people on WWE's roster that could safely pull off a Kudome Valentine or Vertical Suplex Piledriver (aka Steiner Screwdriver) or anything particularly complex or risky. These people work so often, by the end of a typical match, they're beyond gassed. So they have to keep their moves simple and low impact.

 

Weak movesets are a WWE trademark.

[justtxyank]

Umm, why do you even watch WWE? 90% of the roster's moveset is weak. I don't think there are 5 people on WWE's roster that could safely pull off a Kudome Valentine or Vertical Suplex Piledriver (aka Steiner Screwdriver) or anything particularly complex or risky. These people work so often, by the end of a typical match, they're beyond gassed. So they have to keep their moves simple and low impact.

 

Weak movesets are a WWE trademark.

 

You misunderstand, I understand that the E no longer opts for serious in ring performance due to their schedule, but Jeff Hardy looks particularly weak to me.

[CQI13]

Umm, what jobber are you referring to? I know you don't mean Mikey Whipwreck.

 

It was Colin Delaney. At least Whipwreck had a purpose from the matches I've seen. And didn't he become massively over from what he started as?

[slack]

The Hardy-HBK comparisons never made sense to me either, just because a guy has some backstage drama and isn't a big worker doesn't make him the next Shawn Michaels.

 

Shawn could really make you rally behind him as a face and make you want to pay 39.95 to see someone kick his ass.

 

Jeff seems like he's fighting the same match no matter who he's fighting. And his "No Power and Paint" gimmic is kinda cool, but really is whatever.

 

Besides, HBK sings his own theme song, that HAS to count for something. I mean, it got Koko B. Ware in the Hall of Fame!

[lazorbeak]

The Hardy-HBK comparisons never made sense to me either, just because a guy has some backstage drama and isn't a big worker doesn't make him the next Shawn Michaels.

 

Shawn could really make you rally behind him as a face and make you want to pay 39.95 to see someone kick his ass.

 

Jeff seems like he's fighting the same match no matter who he's fighting. And his "No Power and Paint" gimmic is kinda cool, but really is whatever.

 

Besides, HBK sings his own theme song, that HAS to count for something. I mean, it got Koko B. Ware in the Hall of Fame!

 

Everyone knows Edge and John Morrison are the next Shawn Michaels.

[alden]

I think hardy fills a small but important role..........he draws the young women.....hate him how much you want he draws the teen girls and they buy alot of his stuff. look at all the people with the arm bands and hardy shirts they are almost always young girls. The wwe knows what they have in hardy and push him because of his sales.......

[GatorBait19]

So wait Batista is injuried?

[GatorBait19]

are we going to see a Punk heel turn..... finally?

[Synticha]

I heard that he did a heel turn. I didn't watch Extreme Rules as the only wrestling related video I've seen in a while is the "Rise and Fall of ECW"...

[alden]

wow that was a while ago lol.........yah, batista is hurt and out for a while....will most likely be a title change tonight...........i am surprised no one has started a "what will happen" thread........

[Astil]

Umm, slack, Jeff sings No More Words (his theme)

 

For those saying Jeff's offense is poor and want to see him gone, who are you replacing him with? MVP ... and ... and ...

 

Sorry, MVP is no Jeff Hardy. Not even close in crowd control or ringwork. Yes, I said it, Jeff > MVP in ring work.

[Candyman]

Umm, why do you even watch WWE? 90% of the roster's moveset is weak. I don't think there are 5 people on WWE's roster that could safely pull off a Kudome Valentine or Vertical Suplex Piledriver (aka Steiner Screwdriver) or anything particularly complex or risky. These people work so often, by the end of a typical match, they're beyond gassed. So they have to keep their moves simple and low impact.

 

It's not about being gassed or "weak" movesets, it's doing what the WWE tells them they can and cannot do. I'm sure there's a dozen guys that could pull off a Kudome Valentine. Safely? There's no such thing. You do not "safely" drop somebody directly on their head, especially when they have no ability whatsoever to protect themselves. The slightest mistake and somebody's livelihood (or worse) is over. There's no reason for the WWE to take that risk.

[Remianen]

It's not about being gassed or "weak" movesets, it's doing what the WWE tells them they can and cannot do. I'm sure there's a dozen guys that could pull off a Kudome Valentine. Safely? There's no such thing. You do not "safely" drop somebody directly on their head, especially when they have no ability whatsoever to protect themselves. The slightest mistake and somebody's livelihood (or worse) is over. There's no reason for the WWE to take that risk.

 

Yes, and the fact that there are over a hundred people SAFELY performing (and taking) that move proves that point, right? From Homicide to Gregory Helms to Melissa to Megumi herself doing that move for over 20 years with no issues, I guess that proves it's completely unsafe and too big a risk. I'm sure no one would call Scott Steiner a paragon of in-ring safety but how often has he performed the Screwdriver and how many injuries resulted from it?

 

Look, don't try to make it seem like WWE is a bastion of wrestling skill. It's not. There are moves that are similarly painful looking that people with skill do every day. If your people are skilled, the risk is minimized to a very great extent. Yes, there's still risk. But then, even doing a simple suplex has risk (ask Randy Orton or even better, Kennedy).

 

Sorry, the main reason the E keeps their worker finishers as simple as possible is due to their workload. Why did Kane quit doing the Tombstone? Because it was murder on his knees. Is the Gogoplata easier to perform over and over and over again for 'Taker than the Tombstone? I'd say so. You can say that Batista could easily perform a Gory Special or anything not simple if you want. I'd seriously doubt it. And when I said 5 workers who could perform those moves, it's only the five workers I'm aware of who have done it (repeatedly and safely). By your assertion, every worker who has ever competed against Mariko Yoshida and Cheerleader Melissa has been in grave danger from the Air Raid Crash. Sorry, I'm not buyin' it. WWE isn't the only company on the planet concerned with the safety of their cash cows....err, I mean workers.

[scorpion]

Yes, and the fact that there are over a hundred people SAFELY performing (and taking) that move proves that point, right? From Homicide to Gregory Helms to Melissa to Megumi herself doing that move for over 20 years with no issues, I guess that proves it's completely unsafe and too big a risk. I'm sure no one would call Scott Steiner a paragon of in-ring safety but how often has he performed the Screwdriver and how many injuries resulted from it?

 

Look, don't try to make it seem like WWE is a bastion of wrestling skill. It's not. There are moves that are similarly painful looking that people with skill do every day. If your people are skilled, the risk is minimized to a very great extent. Yes, there's still risk. But then, even doing a simple suplex has risk (ask Randy Orton or even better, Kennedy).

 

Sorry, the main reason the E keeps their worker finishers as simple as possible is due to their workload. Why did Kane quit doing the Tombstone? Because it was murder on his knees. Is the Gogoplata easier to perform over and over and over again for 'Taker than the Tombstone? I'd say so. You can say that Batista could easily perform a Gory Special or anything not simple if you want. I'd seriously doubt it. And when I said 5 workers who could perform those moves, it's only the five workers I'm aware of who have done it (repeatedly and safely). By your assertion, every worker who has ever competed against Mariko Yoshida and Cheerleader Melissa has been in grave danger from the Air Raid Crash. Sorry, I'm not buyin' it. WWE isn't the only company on the planet concerned with the safety of their cash cows....err, I mean workers.

 

It's not just about a moves safety as much as the moves impact. Not saying safety isn't a concern, but there are moves that, even when done safely, can impact a workers body negatively over time. While people may not like the toned down style of wwe, i think the fact that they are sending far fewer people to youngblood for neck fusion surgery is a good thing.

 

The other thing with certain moves in wwe, not necessarily the ones you mentioned, but in general. there are moves that may look cool and that people love, that are great in an organization with smaller workers, but the majority of wwe's workers are bigger and the moves could not believably be pulled off. i.e. the ever popular canadian destroyer

[alden]

There are indead certain moves that no matter how safe you are can hurt no matter what. A move that should never be done in wwe *or period in my opinion* is the burning hammer. That move is sick.......i have seen it done a few times and to be honest i am scared to death of it....hell i have even heard of promoters wanted it done off the ropes.

 

wwe has a very safe style and to be honest alot of the boys like that. No one wants to get hurt, why do you think wwe has not done a scafold match? They are just to many ways to get hurt.

[Self]

I could be wrong, but I always thought part of the reason they stopped doing Piledriver moves is that, despite the "Don't Try This" messages, kids will play wrestling, and the piledriver is easy to do strength-wise, but very risky if not performed properly. Of course, their own guys botching stuff is a concern to, and with their current developmental program, I don't blame them for limiting movesets.

 

And if you're a good worker, you don't need to do ludicrous, risky moves to entertain the crowd. Stick that in your pipe and Vertebreaker it!

 

I just watched a replay of the show, and for the first time in ages, I watched a show with a couple of buddies, who were into WWE way back when, and currently enjoy (but aren't fanatical about...) UFC. I was embarrassed to be honest. I might have been vindicated if they stayed to watch the Ladder match, but they left just before the ECW Title match... leaving me to cry into my bucket of chicken.

 

Quick Opinion? I wasn't a fan of the show either. It quickly dawned on me that most of the people I care about (Morrison, Hart Trilogy... that's about it) weren't going to be on the show. Jericho/Mysterio wasn't up to their Judgment Day standard (that match was the reason I thought I'd invite some guys over for this show) Batista/Orton seemed short and definitive. Punk/Umaga was boring. The Main Event was the only match I sort of enjoyed, and I liked Punk's win. I'm interested to see what they do with it on Smackdown.

 

I like Jeff. WWE is all about 5-moves-of-doom and his are more exciting than most. I guess he's like marmite, or the teenage mutant ninja turtles. You either get him or you don't. I get him. Turtle Power!

[UkWrestleFan]

Amen on that closing comment, Self. I like Hardy, too. He's good at what he does and as you so correctly point out, his 'five moves' are more interesting than most.

 

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and that's great and everything, but really, if you're going to over-analyze stuff in the WWE and complain that 'that's not convincing' or 'that wouldn't hurt' then you probably shouldn't be watching. It's not meant to be realistic or represent a 'real life' fight, it's meant to entertain and for me, it does it's job.