The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Matt_Black]

5 hours ago, Dawn said:

It's been forever. Maybe because Triple H actually knows how to book them without their only predominant trait being that they smile and kiss babies.

More like Triple H isn't an active performer anymore and can't derail their momentum.

[Dawn]

52 minutes ago, Matt_Black said:

More like Triple H isn't an active performer anymore and can't derail their momentum.

Gotta admit that did get a chuckle out of me. Hunter's mind has definitely evolved from who he was in the reign of terror.

[Matt_Black]

16 minutes ago, Dawn said:

Gotta admit that did get a chuckle out of me. Hunter's mind has definitely evolved from who he was in the reign of terror.

Nah, I think Paul London had him pegged right. It's STILL about getting himself over above all else, he's just had to adjust on how he does it.

[Wrestling Machine]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:11 AM, Matt_Black said:

It's STILL about getting himself over above all else, he's just had to adjust on how he does it.

WDYM? Are you saying that he is doing a GREAT job as a "booker" just to prove himself? LMAO he's welcome!

 

Boyyyy AJ Styles looked JACKED! I assume there will a No. One Contender's match triple threat win by Orton, then we'll have Reigns (c) vs Orton and AJ Styles vs LA Knight at the Rumble (or Mania)

[Dawn]

1 hour ago, Wrestling Machine said:

WDYM? Are you saying that he is doing a GREAT job as a "booker" just to prove himself? LMAO he's welcome!

 

Boyyyy AJ Styles looked JACKED! I assume there will a No. One Contender's match triple threat win by Orton, then we'll have Reigns (c) vs Orton and AJ Styles vs LA Knight at the Rumble (or Mania)

I'd assume AJ puts LA Knight over before Mania and the plan is for LA to beat Logan Paul for the US title there, that feud has been set up since Money in the Bank.

[Matt_Black]

3 hours ago, Wrestling Machine said:

WDYM? Are you saying that he is doing a GREAT job as a "booker" just to prove himself?

He is? Because to me, it seems like he's doing the EXACT same stuff that Vince did.

"Tonight, on RAW, our main event, for the first time ever, it's Cody Rhodes versus Shinsuke Nakamura!"

Me: I bet it ends in DQ.

"Oh, no! The red mist, right in front of the referee...!"

Me: Dammit, Hunter.

[The Blonde Bomber]

That AJ Styles return was done awfully. An awkward way to reintroduce him. A big L from me dog.

[Matt_Black]

3 hours ago, The Blonde Bomber said:

That AJ Styles return was done awfully. An awkward way to reintroduce him. A big L from me dog.

Triple H: "Ha ha! I don't think AEW could do such an awkward return for one of their big stars!"

Tony Khan: "Hold my beer."

[The Blonde Bomber]

I’m amped I got tickets for Punks return at MSG on the 26th!!!

[Wrestling Machine]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:38 AM, Matt_Black said:

He is? Because to me, it seems like he's doing the EXACT same stuff that Vince did.

"Tonight, on RAW, our main event, for the first time ever, it's Cody Rhodes versus Shinsuke Nakamura!"

Me: I bet it ends in DQ.

"Oh, no! The red mist, right in front of the referee...!"

Me: Dammit, Hunter.

IDK, it seems to me very blind and biased to say that Triple H is doing things like Vince McMahon since Rhodes vs. Nakamura ended up in DQ, but ours are opinions I guess 😉 imo in the last stretch I have seen much more consistency and common sense in roster management

[Matt_Black]

7 minutes ago, Wrestling Machine said:

IDK, it seems to me very blind and biased to say that Triple H is doing things like Vince McMahon since Rhodes vs. Nakamura ended up in DQ, but ours are opinions I guess 😉 imo in the last stretch I have seen much more consistency and common sense in roster management

Both Trips and Vince have a tendency to hype up a main event on TV and then it ends in DQ, because they are creatively bankrupt.

[Wrestling Machine]

1 minute ago, Matt_Black said:

Both Trips and Vince have a tendency to hype up a main event on TV and then it ends in DQ, because they are creatively bankrupt.

Or maybe because, if not repeated over and over again (as thank God is not happening), is a finisher that makes sense, protects competitors from a pinfall and makes you want to see more, usually coming to a rematch at a PLE/PPV. 

[Matt_Black]

Just now, Wrestling Machine said:

Or maybe because, if not repeated over and over again (as thank God is not happening), is a finisher that makes sense, protects competitors from a pinfall and makes you want to see more, usually coming to a rematch at a PLE/PPV. 

It's happened enough under Triple H's reign for me to notice it, and to become tired of it.

[Dawn]

1 hour ago, Matt_Black said:

It's happened enough under Triple H's reign for me to notice it, and to become tired of it.

Ok...if he doesn't put on these storyline matches on TV to set up the future rubber matches, then you'd complain that the shows are filled with boring and meaningless matches instead. I know I would much rather watch a Cody/Nakamura 20 minute banger that ends inconclusively to continue their feud rather than 10 conclusive but meaningless squash matches for the main eventers over the hapless midcard like it used to be under Vince. Show of hands from when the Intercontinental Champion was jobbing every week on Raw? When the same matches were happening week to week and 50/50 booking that got no one over? I get the complaint but it's not like you or anyone who dislikes this trope is providing a viable solution.

Let me use the Cody/Nakamura feud as an example since it was the most recent time this happened.

1. If they don't do the first match on TV that ends in a DQ to set up the future ones and instead store that initial match for later, people complain that the program is taking way too long to actually go somewhere (see Bray Wyatt v LA Knight, Dexter Lumis v Miz)
2. If they do the first match on TV and Cody wins conclusively, the whole storyline loses its point. Cody has no reason to want to beat Nakamura anymore even if he continues to be tormented. People complain the story is now pointless and just treading water or that the heel looked too weak far too soon.
3. If they do the first match on TV and Nakamura wins conclusively, Cody looks weak on the RTWM which nobody wants nor needs and now Nakamura has no reason to continue going after Cody. If Cody is the one to chase Nakamura after this, he just looks like a sore loser.
4. This is going to be the toughest and longest one to counter since they did it pretty well with the Brock program. But Brock is a whole different beast with an untouchable aura. If they do the first match on TV and Cody wins on a fluke like he did with Brock, it just isn't the same as that situation. Cody HAD to beat Brock in a more flukey way by using his wits on their first go around because he had just gone through the worst loss of his career and Brock was overwhelming him. But this would not fit with Nakamura because of a number of reasons. Brock is already built in as a threat no matter what, whereas you have to build Nakamura as an Avengers level threat for Cody to overcome before finishing the story. You can't do that by having Cody already win the first match decisively or by making Nakamura look like a fool (because he isn't a monster you HAVE to resort to dirty tricks in order to beat sometimes in which crowds will understand why the babyface did such a thing such as with Cody himself and Eddie Guerrero did that with Brock) which would then turn into the complaints. ''Why did they shove Nakamura into this program just for Cody to beat him right away'' yadda yadda.
5. And if Nakamura wins their first match on TV cheaply, it misses all the points. The complaints become, why is Cody such a dumb babyface so close to WrestleMania. 

Lastly let's talk about what they did do, which was have Nakamura get himself disqualified and brutalize Cody because the point of challenging him for that first match was exactly that. To catch Cody off guard and show him what he's dealing with and that he is a danger to Cody finishing his story. If the two cross paths at the Royal Rumble, this will now be an incredibly heated showdown instead of just random punch and kick trading. ''Oh but they could have achieved that with a brawl'' then I go back to point #1 where people would complain that they're not having an actual match...

This way:

1. Nakamura's endgame is shown and he looks like a threat & a wily heel.
2. Cody has an actual reason to keep going after Nakamura and the eventual match where he will win cleanly.
3. They both have had a match that heats up the program and neither looked weak in the process.
4. They add pizzazz to the Rumble.
5. They even add in a little overness sprinkle to the Creed Brothers! Cody doesn't look like a dumb babyface who doesn't have any friends, Nakamura looks relentless in his pursuit as he keeps returning to attack Cody even when others are trying to repel him. I'd argue this made them both look stronger than either of them winning the match conclusively would have.

The point is, I feel people will complain no matter what they try to do. Obviously not every feud where their TV matches end on a DQ are one and the same but simply complaining that this happens is way too insufficient. You have to look into the context. Surely there are times when it's just pointless and done to drag things along but generalizing ''DQ finishes bad'' is not it either.

Would you really rather Cody and Nakamura squash midcarders every week en route to the Royal Rumble while their program loses steam because they've never had a match in about 2 months? Or endless tag team matches that don't really solve their individual issue with one another? This is not a dream match situation/Mania main event level feud that can be afforded the months long slow burn before they ever meet in the ring for the first time. Maybe it would have been if Nakamura had been built strongly for actual YEARS and not just recently but that's not the point.

Anyway. I think Triple H has hit a fine enough balance where his match booking doesn't really bother me. They're all usually wrestled really well since they're given ample time, stories are told in each of them (rather than just random match combinations) and he's got me hooked on what's coming next. He's not perfect, obviously. Judgment Day opening Raw every week and doing basically the same promo WAS a trend I got tired of. Among a few other things. But he is a far, far cry from the days of Vince. Positively so.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Dawn

[The Blonde Bomber]

7 hours ago, Matt_Black said:

Both Trips and Vince have a tendency to hype up a main event on TV and then it ends in DQ, because they are creatively bankrupt.

DQ’s are a way to advance programs between two wrestlers . 

[The Blonde Bomber]

6 hours ago, Dawn said:

Ok...if he doesn't put on these storyline matches on TV to set up the future rubber matches, then you'd complain that the shows are filled with boring and meaningless matches instead. I know I would much rather watch a Cody/Nakamura 20 minute banger that ends inconclusively to continue their feud rather than 10 conclusive but meaningless squash matches for the main eventers over the hapless midcard like it used to be under Vince. Show of hands from when the Intercontinental Champion was jobbing every week on Raw? When the same matches were happening week to week and 50/50 booking that got no one over? I get the complaint but it's not like you or anyone who dislikes this trope is providing a viable solution.

Let me use the Cody/Nakamura feud as an example since it was the most recent time this happened.

1. If they don't do the first match on TV that ends in a DQ to set up the future ones and instead store that initial match for later, people complain that the program is taking way too long to actually go somewhere (see Bray Wyatt v LA Knight, Dexter Lumis v Miz)
2. If they do the first match on TV and Cody wins conclusively, the whole storyline loses its point. Cody has no reason to want to beat Nakamura anymore even if he continues to be tormented. People complain the story is now pointless and just treading water or that the heel looked too weak far too soon.
3. If they do the first match on TV and Nakamura wins conclusively, Cody looks weak on the RTWM which nobody wants nor needs and now Nakamura has no reason to continue going after Cody. If Cody is the one to chase Nakamura after this, he just looks like a sore loser.
4. This is going to be the toughest and longest one to counter since they did it pretty well with the Brock program. But Brock is a whole different beast with an untouchable aura. If they do the first match on TV and Cody wins on a fluke like he did with Brock, it just isn't the same as that situation. Cody HAD to beat Brock in a more flukey way by using his wits on their first go around because he had just gone through the worst loss of his career and Brock was overwhelming him. But this would not fit with Nakamura because of a number of reasons. Brock is already built in as a threat no matter what, whereas you have to build Nakamura as an Avengers level threat for Cody to overcome before finishing the story. You can't do that by having Cody already win the first match decisively or by making Nakamura look like a fool (because he isn't a monster you HAVE to resort to dirty tricks in order to beat sometimes in which crowds will understand why the babyface did such a thing such as with Cody himself and Eddie Guerrero did that with Brock) which would then turn into the complaints. ''Why did they shove Nakamura into this program just for Cody to beat him right away'' yadda yadda.
5. And if Nakamura wins their first match on TV cheaply, it misses all the points. The complaints become, why is Cody such a dumb babyface so close to WrestleMania. 

Lastly let's talk about what they did do, which was have Nakamura get himself disqualified and brutalize Cody because the point of challenging him for that first match was exactly that. To catch Cody off guard and show him what he's dealing with and that he is a danger to Cody finishing his story. If the two cross paths at the Royal Rumble, this will now be an incredibly heated showdown instead of just random punch and kick trading. ''Oh but they could have achieved that with a brawl'' then I go back to point #1 where people would complain that they're not having an actual match...

This way:

1. Nakamura's endgame is shown and he looks like a threat & a wily heel.
2. Cody has an actual reason to keep going after Nakamura and the eventual match where he will win cleanly.
3. They both have had a match that heats up the program and neither looked weak in the process.
4. They add pizzazz to the Rumble.
5. They even add in a little overness sprinkle to the Creed Brothers! Cody doesn't look like a dumb babyface who doesn't have any friends, Nakamura looks relentless in his pursuit as he keeps returning to attack Cody even when others are trying to repel him. I'd argue this made them both look stronger than either of them winning the match conclusively would have.

The point is, I feel people will complain no matter what they try to do. Obviously not every feud where their TV matches end on a DQ are one and the same but simply complaining that this happens is way too insufficient. You have to look into the context. Surely there are times when it's just pointless and done to drag things along but generalizing ''DQ finishes bad'' is not it either.

Would you really rather Cody and Nakamura squash midcarders every week en route to the Royal Rumble while their program loses steam because they've never had a match in about 2 months? Or endless tag team matches that don't really solve their individual issue with one another? This is not a dream match situation/Mania main event level feud that can be afforded the months long slow burn before they ever meet in the ring for the first time. Maybe it would have been if Nakamura had been built strongly for actual YEARS and not just recently but that's not the point.

Anyway. I think Triple H has hit a fine enough balance where his match booking doesn't really bother me. They're all usually wrestled really well since they're given ample time, stories are told in each of them (rather than just random match combinations) and he's got me hooked on what's coming next. He's not perfect, obviously. Judgment Day opening Raw every week and doing basically the same promo WAS a trend I got tired of. Among a few other things. But he is a far, far cry from the days of Vince. Positively so.

I appreciate your dedication to this post! 

[The Blonde Bomber]

The Creeds looked like were a bit stiff on those Brutus Balls. Wouldn’t be surprised if they move on to a new tag team finisher. Priest looked in legit pain after the match. Overall a good episode of Raw. R-Truth opener was fun, Gunther v Miz was Awesome, Cody-Nakamura was a nice small bit of business not super interested in Nakamura though, Seth-Drew was okay not really interested in either guy but I can see what they’re doing, and Rhea Ripley continues to be her fabulous self! 

[Matt_Black]

15 hours ago, The Blonde Bomber said:

DQ’s are a way to advance programs between two wrestlers . 

They're a LAZY way to advance programs between two wrestlers.

[Dawn]

Glad we're just ignoring all the well thought out counters and are back to things bad just because. 

[shawn michaels]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:22 AM, Matt_Black said:

They're a LAZY way to advance programs between two wrestlers.

That's AN OPINION, not necessarily an absolute truth at all. Whether we all like or hate some of the things going on, there has been progress. Complaining just cause is what this looks like, no offense, just my opinion as well. It's far from perfect but they at least have things to look forward too nowadays, more consistent booking, most comedy is a bit more acceptable. Overall there are good improvements.

I think the dq finish isn't bad at all as a way to setup things here. A decisive win by any of them would indeed seem like the not so long ago times of the weird 50/50 random booking. Raw is still a chore with its 3 hours, but has been worse. But at least there are some things to look forward to.

Edited December 20, 2023 by shawn michaels

[guyver3]

DQs in wrestling have been around since pretty much the beginning and were way more prevalent in the territory and attitude days but yeah Triple H he’s using them too much 

[Matt_Black]

7 hours ago, guyver3 said:

DQs in wrestling have been around since pretty much the beginning and were way more prevalent in the territory and attitude days but yeah Triple H he’s using them too much 

And that was fine back then, because TV wasn't as prevalent. Now, when there's 5+ hours of wrestling TV per week (and that's just WWE!), it's a different kettle of fish.

[guyver3]

1 hour ago, Matt_Black said:

And that was fine back then, because TV wasn't as prevalent. Now, when there's 5+ hours of wrestling TV per week (and that's just WWE!), it's a different kettle of fish.

TV was actually much more prevalent back then and has been loosing ground for at least 10 years to streaming besides WWE losing viewers people watching cable has dropped. So going back a month of both Raw and Smackdown I’m counting 2 no contests a double count out and 1 DQ finish but apparently that’s too much and Triple H being lazy. 

[FellaLibby]

I'd rather a intentional DQ finish, than 50/50 booking or having a pointless match at PPV where someone goes 2-0 over the other. An intentional DQ to me still gives the eventual loser an edge that their more vicious in their upcoming PPV match.

Edited December 20, 2023 by FellaLibby

[Matt_Black]

Or, you can save the actual 1-on-1 match for the blow-off to the feud.