The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Tha Black Phenom]

Many champions have wrestled opening matches tbh, but I get where you're coming from. The problem is there's no one to really face Sheamus. Raw is fresh out of babyface upper-midcarders, bar... Kofi, but he's busy. So they stick Sheamus against guys like Bourne and MVP, while having Cena/Orton gun for the title, but they can't exactly have Sheamus go over them, can they? Well.. they could for Cena, but I guess they're not willing to.

 

Imagine had Sheamus won the belt on SmackDown!.. his reign would be slightly more believable. You got guys like Rey, Kane, Matt Hardy, R-Truth, Morrison and more for him to go over. Raw's roster is just... messed up. The gap between the main-event and midcard scenes is so wide.

 

But hey, they're trying their best. They got Sheamus speaking damn near every week on the mic, and tbh he isn't bad. They just gotta keep his quota up now. Whatever happened to those tag team main-events which plagued Raw(and did NOT feature DX)? Sheamus would fit well in one, tbh.

[StudioStu]

I like Sheamus, but I think it was just too soon. He needs something different, I can't quite put my finger on what that should be, though. I wonder if he would do better as a face?

[Tag01]

I'm sick of the guest hosts. Jon Heder and don Johnson? Seriously? When is the cast of the view or some of the fat asses from Biggest Loser getting their turn? That main event was really lame, and the segment afterward was super awkward.

[Hyde Hill]

Guest hosts need to stop asap even the good ones for two big reasons: Continuity and taking away time and attention/focus from the actually contracted talent. It's not helping in the ratings anymore so plz E stop it. There are more reasons but those are my main gripes.

[PeterHilton]

Guest hosts need to stop asap even the good ones for two big reasons: Continuity and taking away time and attention/focus from the actually contracted talent. It's not helping in the ratings anymore so plz E stop it. There are more reasons but those are my main gripes.

 

1) It kinda is...the more well known guests are getting bigger ratings.

 

2) I used to agree with the idea that the guest hosts were 'holding back' contracted talent, but then I took a real long look at the Raw roster and realized...no, not really. Because there's not that much actual worthwhile talent to hold back.

 

http://www.wwe.com/superstars/raw/

 

Check it out. Who deserves more TV time? Who on there needs more segments? If anything, the guest hosts are saving us from even longer Cena/DX segments. I mean, the reason Jericho was appearing on both show was because they NEEDED him to be on both shows.

 

The E spent a lot of years misfiring with the guys they were trying to turn into star. So now they're dealing with the results: a shockingly thin roster especially considering they are trying to run 3 brands.

[jbergey_2005]

Good points.

 

They are very much struggling to produce any new stars for the past 6 years.

 

The Main Event scene over from 5-6 years ago is alarmingly similar. I cant really put a finger on why it is like this.

 

Is it that Undertaker, Triple H, HBK are blocking their way? Is it that the booking is that bad? Is it that the younger workers cant run with the push they have given them? Is it that the IWC is somehow getting in the way of the natural evolution of a wrestler?

 

Something with the E has just stalled.

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah but the only way to salvage the roster short of brining in talent is to develop them more. How do you develop them more? By putting them out more. Without the guest hosts maybe the midcard etc would have had more time to develop and "The Gap" wouldn't be as huge. Hell I am more of a Smackdown fan anyways within WWE (,till the Taker return,) but I am just pissed because RAW could and should be lots better.

 

I know as more of a TNA fan people might think I want the WWE to do bad but I am first and foremost a wrestling fan. I seriously don't care what the company name is as long as I enjoy the product. If TNA does well it will be a boon for all wrestling fans as VKM does better under competition.

 

What about fan loyalty etc you may ask? I am loyal to the product I enjoy more this isn't competitive sports or something like that.

[d_w_w]

1) It kinda is...the more well known guests are getting bigger ratings.

 

While I realize I'm a sample of one, this definitely applies to me. I decide whether or not to DVR based on the guest host. The more interesting, to me, the guest host, the more likely I am to DVR the show.

[Franchise22]

triple threat for mania? HH/hbk/taker for title????

 

HBK wins rumble, then with tensions high in DX......

 

HHH wins a match to win a shot to face raw champ but decides to push the issue that his title shot be against taker, setting up the triple threat.

 

yay or nay.

[Stennick]

I've hated WWE programming for months now yet I always got that feeling that any show now they could produce something worth watching. So I'd DVR it and find myself fastfowarding through nearly the entire show. This week I didn't record it, I didn't check for results. After twenty years of watching wrestling for the first time ever I'm just not interested in watching the WWE. I'll give TNA just a bit more time to move in an interesting direction.

[FINisher]

I've hated WWE programming for months now yet I always got that feeling that any show now they could produce something worth watching. So I'd DVR it and find myself fastfowarding through nearly the entire show. This week I didn't record it, I didn't check for results. After twenty years of watching wrestling for the first time ever I'm just not interested in watching the WWE. I'll give TNA just a bit more time to move in an interesting direction.

 

I stopped watching WWE all together last year and I'm seriously thinking of stopping watching TNA now. I'll probably just read results from now on as both companies are in downward spiral for me.. Have been for a long time now.

 

E: Better yet, check out the results from TNA iMPACT! after the PPV Amazingly utter wrestlecrap.

[lazorbeak]

Good points.

 

They are very much struggling to produce any new stars for the past 6 years.

 

The Main Event scene over from 5-6 years ago is alarmingly similar. I cant really put a finger on why it is like this.

 

Is it that Undertaker, Triple H, HBK are blocking their way? Is it that the booking is that bad? Is it that the younger workers cant run with the push they have given them? Is it that the IWC is somehow getting in the way of the natural evolution of a wrestler?

 

Something with the E has just stalled.

 

The problem, in my opinion, is that they're a publicly traded corporate entity that has certain expectations, especially for a pay per view like Wrestlemania. I mean Vince has always been overly cautious about pushing new talent at the show that is always their biggest of the year (Austin vs. Bret Hart at X3 should've been the main event and for a title, instead we got... Undertaker vs. Sid?), but since they've gone public they've been extra-afraid of putting unestablished talent in main event matches. I mean WM 19's Angle vs. Lesnar was the main event, even though Lesnar had worked about a year and Angle had only been with the company a few years and had never been in a wrestlemania main event.

 

But since then, we've had Triple H in 3 main events in the past 5 years, and the two he weren't in featured the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels. To me, that's the company realizing that at least some of their buyrates are based on their 90's fan-base, but rather than build up new guys, they keep these aging superstars at the top to ensure there isn't any stockholder unrest if Wrestlemania falls below expectations.

[PeterHilton]

Yeah but the only way to salvage the roster short of brining in talent is to develop them more. How do you develop them more? By putting them out more. Without the guest hosts maybe the midcard etc would have had more time to develop and "The Gap" wouldn't be as huge. Hell I am more of a Smackdown fan anyways within WWE (,till the Taker return,) but I am just pissed because RAW could and should be lots better.

 

 

lazorbeak makes some great points about the possible reasoning behind why some guys haven't been elevated, but I'm going to return to my 'logistics' argument as it pertains to Raw:

 

Take a look at the roster again.

 

They have 18 guys you could consider "full time" wrestlers (and Primo and Carlito are iffy).

 

You have true top of the card main eventers (Orton, Cena, DX).

 

In the past year, MVP and Bourne looked like they were going to get pushed hard, and then after being 'established' the push was dropped. Same might happen to Kofi. And net fans scream bloody murder

 

My question would be: where do you put them? You can't realistically push every talented midcarder to main event status, or esle you don't have a midcard. And there really aren't enough veteran name workers around to 'put over' the few guys you might consider pushing anyway (partially due to an actual lack of names and partially because, as lazorbeak said, they're not willing to job out the names they have managed to establish).

 

I agree that WWE needs to do a better job creating stars, but looking at that roster, Raw needs an influx of established talent.

[TheOmniWarrior]

Honestly, raw doesnt have a bad roster. There really isnt a gap between midcard and main event its that all the UMC guys are HEELS

 

They can turn show, as I read somewhere he prefers to play a face.

They could have had Sheamus vs Kofi and had Sheamus destroy Kofi so Sheamus would have victory over someone who gave Orton A TON of trouble.

Hell "trade" Henry over to smackdown so MVP can become an uppermidcarder without either men doing a heel change. Maybe get Khali to have a UMC Face Jobber.

Turn Ted

Find a way to push Santino as a UMC level "fun babyface" let him use his cage fighting skills in matches.

 

They have options they just REFUSE to use them

[PeterHilton]

Honestly, raw doesnt have a bad roster. There really isnt a gap between midcard and main event its that all the UMC guys are HEELS

 

They can turn show, as I read somewhere he prefers to play a face.

They could have had Sheamus vs Kofi and had Sheamus destroy Kofi so Sheamus would have victory over someone who gave Orton A TON of trouble.

Hell "trade" Henry over to smackdown so MVP can become an uppermidcarder without either men doing a heel change. Maybe get Khali to have a UMC Face Jobber.

Turn Ted

Find a way to push Santino as a UMC level "fun babyface" let him use his cage fighting skills in matches.

 

They have options they just REFUSE to use them

 

Those suggestions didn't really elevate anyone to main event status.

 

All you did was move some midcarders to other positions in the midcard.

 

Also, when you have more faces than heels in your main event spot, it sorta makes sense to have more heel midcarders. You need them to feed to Cena and DX.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Of course they have options, that's what I'm saying - them not using options results in the main-event/midcard gap. It's always easy to say "they could do this, and this, this" but we never know what could result from it or what's holding the guys back, it could be petty reasons behind or even genuine. Just that compared to the last Raw roster(speaking before the 09 draft) now there was a roster well balanced. Had CM Punk, JBL, Umaga and to an extent Kennedy serving as upper-midcarders. You had nice transition there, JBL putting over midcards and receiving the odd World title shot, Punk's little side reign in 08, Umaga feuding with Triple H, etc. But now there's next to no effort, most of the midcard are new potential guys growing and they don't know exactly when to pull the trigger. So they result in 67 Orton/Cena matches and now this Sheamus concept which will fall flat on their face because of them misusing the roster. They should eventually give some to get some but who knows when.

[sebsplex]

But since then, we've had Triple H in 3 main events in the past 5 years, and the two he weren't in featured the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels. To me, that's the company realizing that at least some of their buyrates are based on their 90's fan-base, but rather than build up new guys, they keep these aging superstars at the top to ensure there isn't any stockholder unrest if Wrestlemania falls below expectations.

 

I think it's fair to say that (aside from stockholder concerns), the WWE don't take a great deal of risks with their booking and elevation of talent because simply put, they haven't had to.

 

The other thing I notice is that often, whenever a main eventer is traded from either RAW or Smackdown, they seem to always be considered of equal importance on their new brand. I know the days of the brands proactively competing (brand warz!) seem long gone, but they could at least create more illusion of room for the midcarders already on that brand to advance upwards after a main eventer has been departed the brand, even if it is only short term. I probably have explained that well, but basically if HHH is traded from RAW to Smackdown, don't instantly plug him into a title programme, establish some sort of pecking order where say theoretically, people like Dolph Ziggler, John Morrison, etc on that brand considered ahead of him initially.

 

I don't know, maybe it's just despite so many brand switches inside and outside of drafts, everything often still feels really static.

[PeterHilton]

They should eventually give some to get some but who knows when.

 

I just don't see the E putting the young guys over Cena, Trips, or HBK any time soon.

[PeterHilton]

I don't know, maybe it's just despite so many brand switches inside and outside of drafts, everything often still feels really static.

 

In the last few years, it seems like the only main eventers that were "made" have been Jeff Hardy and CM Punk, and you could argue those two came out of necessity because of all the injuries on Smackdown.

 

And now Punk is back in the midcard and Morrison (who looked like he was on the fast track to being a headliner) has stalled.

 

So going into the new year, the main event scene is:

 

Cena, DX, Orton on Raw

 

Taker, Rey, Batista, Jericho, and (if healthy) Edge on SD

 

It feels static because it IS static.

[Remianen]

Good points.

 

They are very much struggling to produce any new stars for the past 6 years.

 

The Main Event scene over from 5-6 years ago is alarmingly similar. I cant really put a finger on why it is like this.

 

Is it that Undertaker, Triple H, HBK are blocking their way? Is it that the booking is that bad? Is it that the younger workers cant run with the push they have given them? Is it that the IWC is somehow getting in the way of the natural evolution of a wrestler?

 

Something with the E has just stalled.

 

lazorbeak is right. You can't take too many chances when you're in the 'E's position. Their industry is already seen as less legitimate than many (if not most) corporate sectors. So their money is made off the stars they already have (who are largely the stars of the late 90s, with a few exceptions).

 

triple threat for mania? HH/hbk/taker for title????

 

HBK wins rumble, then with tensions high in DX......

 

HHH wins a match to win a shot to face raw champ but decides to push the issue that his title shot be against taker, setting up the triple threat.

 

yay or nay.

 

Um, no. That puts three of the limited number of workers who can main event Wrestlemania into ONE match. Too many eggs in that one basket. I'm probably remembering wrong but I think the 'E uses triple threats and four ways as a way of covering for a worker who perhaps can't draw necessary interest (WMXX for example). Putting three workers who can/have drawn in the same match seems off.

 

They can turn show, as I read somewhere he prefers to play a face.

 

Everyone prefers being a face. That's where the money is (generally speaking). But Show's in a bad place since he's one of the few 'monster' type heels they have who can actually work a match.

 

They could have had Sheamus vs Kofi and had Sheamus destroy Kofi so Sheamus would have victory over someone who gave Orton A TON of trouble.

 

So you completely extinguish Kofi's heat and momentum that you've spent the last 6 months building?

 

Hell "trade" Henry over to smackdown so MVP can become an uppermidcarder without either men doing a heel change. Maybe get Khali to have a UMC Face Jobber.

 

So how do you rebuild Khali to make him credible again if he's jobbing? He's a monster with limited to no in-ring skills and almost no charisma. He needs to be seen as a threat at all times. That doesn't happen if he's jobbing constantly.

 

Turn Ted

And do what with Cody? I don't think Cody has his father's gifts so he and Ted are a package deal.

 

Find a way to push Santino as a UMC level "fun babyface" let him use his cage fighting skills in matches.

 

I think Santino's in a perfect position, personally. Sure, he could be booked stronger but he bounces back from losses and still remains relevant to E fans.

 

They have options they just REFUSE to use them

 

Well, while good, the options you suggest answer some questions but create other problems that would need to be addressed. I thought for sure that they would've turned Ted leading up to the release of The Marine 2 and maybe turn him back with a swerve at the Rumble but that didn't happen.

[MattitudeV2]

Alright,

 

Guys I thought I'd drop my input on making new stars from Paul's or Triple H's standpoint. I would have to take the Terry Funk defense were I have to make new names for there to be a buisness. So if I was in Paul's head I'd be asking myself what were to happen if there was no John Cena,Chris Jericho,Big Show..etc. who would be the next big star and that is were Kingston,Rhodes,Dibiase,MV.P.,Miz,Henry and others.

[The Shape]

What's UMC stand for?

[TenaciousG]

What's UMC stand for?

Upper MidCarder.

[James Casey]

Upper Midcard. Below the main event, but above the people going nowhere and doing nothing. Miz, MVP, Jack Swagger - that sort of worker.

 

WWE seems to prefer the stutter push to the top. Mega pushes create mega egos (Brock!), while having someone move up one level at a time (Angle, Punk) tends to work better as they're shown to be earning (and learning) their way along.

 

There's also the situation that the current main event scene have largely been on top for five years (or fifteen in some cases) now. Becoming a part of that group is going to be hard work. Bigpapa talked about this in his SWF diary: You can notionally have a worker as popular as a Cena or Orton, but until they start picking up the wins over the main event talent, they won't be perceived as such. But how do they get that popularity in the first place? By beating those same workers...

 

And, of course, it's a lot easier to rely on the proven draws than make new ones. We can say that WWE should push new talent, but it's not easy to strike gold. Who in the current WWE roster has the qualities to make it at the top? And who can be trusted to take the ball and run with it.

 

Kofi and Miz seem the most likely to me to break through in the coming year, but a year ago Jeff Hardy had just won his first World title and seemed set for a long run up top. Undertaker, Michaels, Edge, Orton, Mysterio and Batista have all had lengthy injuries, so time they may have spent working with others bringing them up is gone.

[TheOmniWarrior]

Im pretty sure CM Punk is still a "main eventer" and the whole feud with Truth is to push Truth to main-event status. Which IMO is stupid because Truth is in his 40's isnt he?