The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[BurningHamster]

Beyond which Punk is over 6 feet tall even though he's pretty stocky

 

In what universe is CM Punk stocky? He's not Taz or Benoit for crying out loud.

[fatallylost]

Jim said it best, and I'll say it in simple terms, so certain people "get it" themselves.

 

WWE makes nothing.

 

Vince makes them. If Vince doesn't like them, it's the biggest up hill battle they'll ever face.

 

Vince has a hard on for big guys who can't wrestle their way out a door.

 

WWE production can make anyone look like anything.

 

Rey is majorly over. Why? Because he looks like a goddamned kid, and they market him towards kids. His world title reign was a joke, only reason it worked, was because of.. wait, what was it? Oh yeah, leeching off of Eddie Guerrero, another guy you claim didn't work.

 

Also, sort of an observation from a few posts. I've been watching forever, and, I have almost never noticed who was how tall, or them putting specific height over, other than "giants" Honestly, most guys looks to be the same height (which seems to be about 6'0-6'5 or so) other than the Rey's, and Big Shows.

[Self]

Anyone that doesn't get that Danielson's lack of a real character combined with his lack of size is going to produce a significant roadblock to him being anything other than a midcarder who can put on good matches are the people that need to "get it."

 

I agree, but that 'roadblock' comes in the form of Vince McMahon and the WWE Creative Team, rather than the fans. While fans are currently conditioned to believe Big Muscles = Good Fighter, I believe it would be fairly simple to subvert that using a guy with the talents of Bryan Danielson.

 

So I agree that Daniel Bryan probably won't be a big star with WWE, but the potential is there. It can be done... but it probably won't.

[lazorbeak]

Vince makes them. If Vince doesn't like them, it's the biggest up hill battle they'll ever face.

 

Vince has a hard on for big guys who can't wrestle their way out a door.

 

Instead of thinking to yourself that it's all because of Vince, did you ever stop and ponder why he does it? It's because those guys make him money. Like, a lot of money. Terry Taylor was a great worker. Ultimate Warrior was not a great worker. Guess which one made Vince more money? How weird that he'd go back to that well, right?

 

 

Rey is majorly over. Why? Because he looks like a goddamned kid, and they market him towards kids. His world title reign was a joke, only reason it worked, was because of.. wait, what was it? Oh yeah, leeching off of Eddie Guerrero, another guy you claim didn't work.

 

Yeah I never said that Eddie Guerrero didn't "work"? What are you even talking about? Mysterio's run was a pretty disastrous failure and he hasn't won a world title again. Note that Eddie, Benoit and Mysterio were all one and done champions. Again, I'm not arguing that they weren't great workers: I think Eddie Guerrero was probably the most complete worker of the past ten years, but the fact is when you talk about "star quality" he just didn't have the same level that a guy like The Rock or Austin has.

 

Also, sort of an observation from a few posts. I've been watching forever, and, I have almost never noticed who was how tall, or them putting specific height over, other than "giants" Honestly, most guys looks to be the same height (which seems to be about 6'0-6'5 or so) other than the Rey's, and Big Shows.

 

It's a sport about guys fake fighting each other. The biggest, meanest looking guys are assumed by the crowd to be the best. It doesn't matter that Abdullah the Butcher would get stretched by Dan Severn: one of them looked like a beast and one looked like your uncle. Guess who was more successful, completely independent of WWE's vaunted marketing machine? You don't notice so much because everybody is around the same size, but when you see somebody like Jericho live and he's a head shorter than you and you think to yourself "I could kick that dude's ass," what are the chances that you're going to pay $40 to see him fight somebody?

 

Slim, Mysterio is an attraction, not really a star. He does what he does and he moves merchandise and the kids like him, but the casual fans don't buy pay per views to see Rey Mysterio.

 

Further, Benoit did have a character, and it was that he was a crazy-intense guy who was willing to put his body on the line. That never changed no matter what his gimmick was from week to week.

 

Also, as far as Jericho, he came in red-hot and then was kept out of the main event scene for how many years, then wins the titles and main events one of the two lowest selling wrestlemanias in the post-Attitude era and doesn't win another world title until he completely reinvents himself years later. I am a big fan of the guy, but he belongs in the upper midcard. And as far as WCW, Booker T, DDP and Bill Goldberg managed to main event despite not being outside talent. Of course, all three were pretty big dudes.

[Slim Jim]

the fact is when you talk about "star quality" he just didn't have the same level that a guy like The Rock or Austin has.

 

Almost no one does, though.

 

It's a sport about guys fake fighting each other. The biggest, meanest looking guys are assumed by the crowd to be the best.

 

So you challenge that assumption through good booking. They could quite comfortably make Bryan out to be the next Angle/Benoit that has such incredible technical prowess, he can take down guys bigger than him. Extending that to the biggest on the roster would be more difficult but still doable. Just don't book him the way they booked Mysterio's title reign and make him look like a chump.

 

when you see somebody like Jericho live and he's a head shorter than you and you think to yourself "I could kick that dude's ass," what are the chances that you're going to pay $40 to see him fight somebody?

 

I'm bigger than most of UFC's middleweights and lower by a head or more, and I don't for a second believe I'd stand a chance against them unless they weren't paying attention and I caught them with a very, very luck shot. With something made of metal.

 

Slim, Mysterio is an attraction, not really a star. He does what he does and he moves merchandise and the kids like him, but the casual fans don't buy pay per views to see Rey Mysterio.

 

Eh, point taken, but if Mysterio can get enough momentum to have at least one title reign, Bryan definitely can. Just needs to find the right death to exploit...

 

Further, Benoit did have a character, and it was that he was a crazy-intense guy who was willing to put his body on the line. That never changed no matter what his gimmick was from week to week.

 

Copy and paste that onto Bryan and run with it.

 

Also, as far as Jericho, he came in red-hot and then was kept out of the main event scene for how many years

 

He debuted at the end of the summer in '99, won a few IC titles, won the WCW World Title about two years later, before becoming the first Undisputed Champion. That was with The Rock, Austin, Mankind, Undertaker, a good Kane, Triple H, Kurt Angle and Big Show all already on the roster when he joined. That's very quick for ANY new guy to win the title.

 

Booker T, DDP and Bill Goldberg managed to main event despite not being outside talent. Of course, all three were pretty big dudes.

 

DDP was very close to Bischoff, and Booker T was in the right place at the right time (and a year after Jericho had left anyway). Goldberg was just a freak that fitted the mold perfectly for a role WCW wanted to push.

 

But yeah, I don't think anyone is saying Bryan will DEFINITELY be a star, or that he is the most likely person to be a star, or that wrestling on the whole doesn't prefer bigger, badder looking guys. But to dismiss him because he isn't over six foot is silly. He can be a star, with the right treatment and a bit of luck. Especially with the state of wrestling now having a very negative view on steroids. Right now, it's probably easier than ever for a smaller guy to get over in the 'E because they are stopping guys juicing. Just listen out for the weights of the wrestlers and compare them to five years ago. Guys are dropping tens of pounds off their billing.

 

Even if he's a perennial Main Eventer that helps the latest monster heel get over, he can work a pretty solid cycle of chasing the big bad monster, making him look incredible, overcoming him with his talent to get a short title run, rinse and repeat. Would get stale for most viewers but is definitely something I could see the 'E doing, hell it's a pretty stock story anyway.

 

Don't know why I'm getting so involved; I'm not even that big a fan of Daniel Bryan

[fatallylost]

Once again, too lazy to quote line by line, also, couldn't care much less to.

 

So, let's say I worked out a little to shed the belly I have, and did some wrestling training. Lazor just said that I could be huge in WWE, just as long as I can connect with the fans.

 

Also, I've seen a handful of wrestlers up close and personal. I feel I could take out HBK, Sting, Ted DiBiase sr, Booker T, Stevie Ray, Ric Flair, Konnan and DDP, to name a few, under what you said.

 

I'm as tall, if not taller than all of them, and am bigger, minus the overdone muscles.

 

You're just spitting out the same old rhetoric. I'm talking about people with talent, that the wrestling community has gotten behind, or, would enjoy. I never once said Danielson was going to be the next Rock or Cena. You assumed that.

 

Thus, making an ass out of yourself. Thank you, I rest my case.

 

Prosecution, your witless.

[Tag01]

 

You've never seen Daniel Bryan do anything, other than the 2-3 promos, and his matches.

 

Daniel Bryan is NOT Bryan Danielson. He is the character.

 

That assumes alot. I've seen far more of Danielson than his NXT time. I really love him, too. I love his matches and get a real kick out of the chain submission stuff. It's not that I don't think he's great, it's just that he isn't what WWE fans look for in a star, IMO. Smaller guys like Jericho and Punk have to be great in the ring AND ooze charisma. He's as good as they are in the ring if not better, but he's even smaller and just doesn't have the charisma they do. I'd be more than pleased if he proves me wrong, though.

[Linsolv]

I think Eddie Guerrero was probably the most complete worker of the past ten years, but the fact is when you talk about "star quality" he just didn't have the same level that a guy like The Rock or Austin has.

 

Perhaps not. But "big" and "star quality" aren't the same. Examples I could point to as people I think of as having a "star" look but being "small": CM Punk (less so with the beard, though, IMO); Beef Wellington (I knew I'd get to refer to OVW some day!); Dare I say The Miz; Kofi Kingston; Dolph Ziggler (Though that's probably just my opinion).

 

On the other hand, you've got big, huge guys who I don't think look very much like stars: Big Show's the best example, for sure, and there's Mike Knox. Both big, huge guys who as far as I know don't draw a dime.

 

Size and star quality aren't related.

 

It's a sport about guys fake fighting each other. The biggest, meanest looking guys are assumed by the crowd to be the best. It doesn't matter that Abdullah the Butcher would get stretched by Dan Severn: one of them looked like a beast and one looked like your uncle. Guess who was more successful, completely independent of WWE's vaunted marketing machine? You don't notice so much because everybody is around the same size, but when you see somebody like Jericho live and he's a head shorter than you and you think to yourself "I could kick that dude's ass," what are the chances that you're going to pay $40 to see him fight somebody?

 

Okay, my response to this: George St. Pierre. Jean-Claude Van Damme. Bruce Lee. Floyd Mayweather.

 

What do they have in common? Not big guys. But they're all respected, well known fighters. I'd have more, but those are the names big enough that I knew them despite not really being a big fan of MMA.

 

(Note: JCVD and Bruce Lee are actors. But both had a notable fighting career before their acting careers.)

[Franchise22]

what notable fighting career do u speak of with JCVD. and gsp isnt small. he walks around about 195lbs and is shredded....

[lazorbeak]

Once again, too lazy to quote line by line, also, couldn't care much less to.

 

So, let's say I worked out a little to shed the belly I have, and did some wrestling training. Lazor just said that I could be huge in WWE, just as long as I can connect with the fans.

 

In a word? YES. If you can connect with the fans and look like you could legit fight somebody, of course you can be a big deal in wrestling. If you lost weight, learned to work, and had a good look (which size is part of and the one aspect that can't be taught at all), of course you could make money fake fighting somebody. I guess the question is: what does that have to do with anything?

 

You're just spitting out the same old rhetoric. I'm talking about people with talent, that the wrestling community has gotten behind, or, would enjoy. I never once said Danielson was going to be the next Rock or Cena. You assumed that.

 

No, I didn't assume that. Did I say anything to the effect of "you said x" or "you assume x" the way you did here? I mentioned it to bring up a point (namely, that Danielson doesn't have much star power), which as far as I can tell you're not even arguing since you're trying to change the discussion into why height is important or how you could beat up guys that are over 50 years old or dead (rip Kanyon). I brought up Danielson's lack of star power in response to Remi, arguing that just juicing the guy isn't going to be enough for most fans to think Danielson looks like a star.

 

Thus, making an ass out of yourself. Thank you, I rest my case.

 

Sorry, who is putting words into who's mouth?

 

Prosecution, your witless.

 

Ohhhhhhh burn! You sure showed me! Seriously have I disrespected you in some way that you feel justified in schoolyard bull****? Is there any cause for that at all?

 

Linsolv, I agree size isn't the only factor in star quality and that height isn't a 1:1 correlation to star quality, but this:

 

Size and star quality aren't related.

 

Is just incorrect. Further, bringing up the fact that guys like Mayweather and Bruce Lee exist doesn't have anything to do with the points I made, which are: 1) wrestling is visual, and 2) larger than life guys make the best visuals. Bringing up things that aren't unrelated to wrestling has nothing to do with it. That's why I brought up Abdullah and Severn? One is a legit fighter but he is visually unimpressive, and Abdullah had no legit training but looked like he could eat you. The fact that small real fighters exist proves absolutely nothing about wrestling, a sport that is not based around real fighting, but the appearance of fighting. And it's far easier for a big guy to appear to be a bad ass.

 

I'm not really saying anything controversial here, so I don't know why people have a problem with this? To take a related example from another sport, anybody who knows anything about boxing can attest to the fact that heavyweight fighters generally aren't the most talented or the most scientific of boxers, but who draws the big money and attracts all the casual fans, Mike Tyson or Oscar De La Hoya? It doesn't matter that Oscar was a better pure fighter, people believed Tyson was a bad-ass and would pay money to see him.

[Tag01]

Okay, my response to this: George St. Pierre. Jean-Claude Van Damme. Bruce Lee. Floyd Mayweather.

 

What do they have in common? Not big guys. But they're all respected, well known fighters. I'd have more, but those are the names big enough that I knew them despite not really being a big fan of MMA.

 

Those are real sports though! And also important to note, they fight within a weight class structure. GSP is a bad man, but would you put money on him against Shane Carwin or Brock Lesnar? Who is the biggest draw in American MMA right now? Brock Lesnar, heavyweight. Who is arguably the best MMA fighter known worldwide, Fedor, Heavyweight. Heavyweight is without question the most followed weight class in boxing too, even though it's routinely the thinnest. It is human nature to equate size with badassitude. That's why Great Khali's gimmicks revolve around being a giant badass, and Amazing Red's gimmick's always involve around jumping around and trying to negate the larger guys advantages.

[The Final Countdown]

That's why Great Khali's gimmicks revolve around being a giant badass, and Amazing Red's gimmick's always involve around jumping around and trying to negate the larger guys advantages.

I don't think Khali has been booked as a "bad ass" for quite a while, actually.

[masterded]

So...making out with fat chicks on camera = badass?

 

If by badass you mean worldest greatest wingman.

[lazorbeak]

Those are real sports though! And also important to note, they fight within a weight class structure. GSP is a bad man, but would you put money on him against Shane Carwin or Brock Lesnar? Who is the biggest draw in American MMA right now? Brock Lesnar, heavyweight. Who is arguably the best MMA fighter known worldwide, Fedor, Heavyweight. Heavyweight is without question the most followed weight class in boxing too, even though it's routinely the thinnest. It is human nature to equate size with badassitude. That's why Great Khali's gimmicks revolve around being a giant badass, and Amazing Red's gimmick's always involve around jumping around and trying to negate the larger guys advantages.

 

Except for Khali's Punjabi Playboy gimmick that he's had for awhile now, you're right on the money. Bob Sapp is not that great a fighter but he's an icon in Japan; Mike Tyson was never a great fighter but he was one of the most famous boxers in the world even before he bit off a dude's ear, appeared in hollywood hits and was featured in documentaries. Heavyweights are a draw in any sport involving combat, and in wrestling where the perception of being a bad-ass is more important than actually being a bad-ass, it counts for that much more.

[sabataged]

Mike Tyson was never a great fighter.

 

The guy hit harder then almost anyone who has ever stepped into a ring.

[fatallylost]

children, now.

[lazorbeak]

Oh for ****s sake. Lazor. I'm done. It's like trying to discuss anything with a retarded statue.

 

Also, the height had not ONE ****ING THING to do with what we had discussed. I even put a goddamned "on another note" to it, and you went off with your queer retard rant. So, get your **** together, and learn a way to discuss something that isn't telling another person his OPINIONS are wrong.

 

Here, let me save you time.

 

"der, uh, u did tha same thing a harr a harr"

 

Move on, I'm going back to giving to the community, not jerking off your wanna be ego trip.

 

Wow. Just wow. Do you really think a post like that is appropriate at all? Please don't post in this thread or in this forum if you can't show even a modicum of respect for other people. I haven't insulted you and I'm not going to, I haven't told you your opinions are wrong, I haven't put words in your mouth, so I have absolutely no clue why you feel justified in such a disrespectful non-sequitur rant. If you can't defend your opinions, try not to resort to childish namecalling because the only person it reflects poorly on is you.

[fatallylost]

Actually, yeah, ever post you point out why my opinions are wrong. So, off the high horse kid. Seriously. I hate internet know it all/tough guys (not saying your an internet tough guy, just hate them both.)

 

I have my opinion, you disrespected that, and I'm sick of punks in the world doing that.

 

Also, never EVER tell me to do anything son. I'll post where I want, what I want (as long as it isn't banable content, of course) whenever I want.

 

I live in a free world, don't know about you. Or, care.

[ampulator]

While, I disagree with how fatallylost has gone about it... but... Lazorbeak, it is... rather difficult to discuss anything with you, since you...appear to... disagree with... well, almost everyone. It seems. Maybe it's not in reality, but that's what it looks like. Just saying.

[lazorbeak]

Actually, yeah, ever post you point out why my opinions are wrong. So, off the high horse kid. Seriously. I hate internet know it all/tough guys (not saying your an internet tough guy, just hate them both.)

 

I have my opinion, you disrespected that, and I'm sick of punks in the world doing that.

 

Also, never EVER tell me to do anything son. I'll post where I want, what I want (as long as it isn't banable content, of course) whenever I want.

 

I live in a free world, don't know about you. Or, care.

 

How did I did not disrespect your opinion? All I did was present support as to why I think my opinion was right. Then, instead of presenting any sort of counter argument or show any sign that you even thought about what I was talking about you posted a disrespectful little rant. You're the guy who is continually telling me what I said and what I assumed and what I did. I'm sorry, did I insult your opinion? Did I do anything other than explain where I was coming from? And I'm not telling you what to do, I'm asking you not to, and just in case you think garbage like what you posted is justified, here's the general code of conduct:

 

1. Do not flame people in threads. Seems simple and this item alone helps make each topic much more interesting and will generate better overall discussions.

 

2. Do not use personal attacks and insults. Resorting to this tactic when you disagree is a quick way to turn people off to your comments and make yourself somewhat irrelevant in discussions. Try to focus on making your point, not marginalizing yourself.

 

3. Be respectful. This single act can make the time you spend at the GDS forums much more enjoyable for yourself and others around you.

 

So it's not really me telling you to do anything.

[fatallylost]

While, I disagree with how fatallylost has gone about it... but... Lazorbeak, it is... rather difficult to discuss anything with you, since you...appear to... disagree with... well, almost everyone. It seems. Maybe it's not in reality, but that's what it looks like. Just saying.

 

I do apologize a bit for the outburst. Been a hell of a week, and, I just get frustrated with kids on the internet (and yes, you can still be a "kid in your 20's and 30's. Trust me)

[fatallylost]

How did I did not disrespect your opinion? All I did was present support as to why I think my opinion was right. .

 

 

I think you may want to reword that one

 

Also, why not follow #3 yourself sunshine?

[ampulator]

Lazorbeak, sometimes, it's not what you say, but how you say it. It comes off as... sometimes... as either rude, off-putting, dismissive, or uncaring.

[lazorbeak]

Lazorbeak, sometimes, it's not what you say, but how you say it. It comes off as... sometimes... as either rude, off-putting, dismissive, or uncaring.

 

Yes, I like to debate people, and I like to do more than just present my opinion and let someone else present theirs. Remi posted examples as evidence, I posted examples as counter-evidence, it's just having a friendly debate. But what I don't do is flat out insult people or act like someone is personally offending me by not agreeing with my opinion without any evidence. There's a pretty substantial difference between disagreeing with my opinion and telling me I'm wrong for having one.

[ampulator]

Yes, I like to debate people, and I like to do more than just present my opinion and let someone else present theirs. Remi posted examples as evidence, I posted examples as counter-evidence, it's just having a friendly debate. But what I don't do is flat out insult people or act like someone is personally offending me by not agreeing with my opinion without any evidence. There's a pretty substantial difference between disagreeing with my opinion and telling me I'm wrong for having one.

Actually, I find Remianen, a bit different from you. While I do disagree with his conclusions sometimes, I cannot dispute his facts. He's also better at presenting an opinion that's not... well... entirely dismissive.