The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Stennick]

I'd argue Swagger has more of an "it" factor than Shelton but to each their own.

[shawn michaels]

I'd argue Swagger has more of an "it" factor than Shelton but to each their own.

 

True,but that wasn't the point of my post.

[MrCanada]

Where the recentley released might end up (and I hope they end up) in my opinion:

 

Shelton Benjamin - ROH or TNA, maybe a short Japanese stint.

Mike Knox - Japan. Follow in A-Train & Tomko's footsteps. Will likely end up a great worker like A-Train, but might find his way back to WWE. AJPW I'd assume, or maybe even Zero1.

Mickie James - TNA

Katie Lea - Indies. Maybe a sting with TNA if they need a random girl.

Kung Fu Naki - Likely back to Japan. K-Dojo.

Jimmy Wang Yang - TNA or ROH and likely time in Japan.

Slam Master J - Indies.

[Jaysin]

Swagger is a poor man's Kurt Angle. A tenth of Kurt's talent and none of Kurt's charisma/entertainment value.

 

The Taker/Swagger match from Raw literally bored me to tears. After TNA's amazing iMPACT! on Monday I decided to give WWE a chance after TNA was over. The first thing I see is a bore-fest of Swagger and Undertaker. It wasn't good.

 

I'd much rather CM Punk be the world champion. He's about the only entertaining thing about WWE right now, but I just can't bring myself to watch the rest of the programming just to see him.

[lazorbeak]

Explain Sheamus and Jack Swagger to me than

 

Well there's this thing called "star quality." Sheamus (especially) and Swagger have it, Primo (an extreme example) does not. All other things being equal, who is the casual fan going to pay money to see? A 6'6 guy that looks like a beast and has distinguishing features, or an out of shape 35 year old who looks like your burnout uncle?

[Guest Instant Classic]

I have always wondered about the star quality thing. I have never looked at Swagger and thought of him as a person who should be placed past US and IC rankings. Sheamus also in comparison to the size of other main eventers does not look like a star either to me. Pale skin and red hair suddenly works? I don't know I personally look at star quality as a way the person connects with the crowd. If the crowd doesn't care that the person is out there than they are not doing their job and should not be showcased. Someone like William Regal, who can connect to the crowds to get the reaction he wants is someone I find to be an excellent draw. You don't have to look like a ferocious monster to be one, you just have to be able to make people believe you are.

[fatallylost]

I absolutely disagree that Swagger has that "star quality" right now. Maybe someday, but, no. He has a great amateur background (really, realistically plays very little into wrestling, especially WWE's style) he's not that great at the mic, at all, and not just because his lisp.

 

He's not exciting to watch.

 

His finisher looks ok every so often, but, it's all that impressive/explosive/entertaining.

[ColtCabana]

I have always wondered about the star quality thing. I have never looked at Swagger and thought of him as a person who should be placed past US and IC rankings. Sheamus also in comparison to the size of other main eventers does not look like a star either to me. Pale skin and red hair suddenly works? I don't know I personally look at star quality as a way the person connects with the crowd. If the crowd doesn't care that the person is out there than they are not doing their job and should not be showcased. Someone like William Regal, who can connect to the crowds to get the reaction he wants is someone I find to be an excellent draw. You don't have to look like a ferocious monster to be one, you just have to be able to make people believe you are.

 

The WWE likes unique looks as I think they find them more marketable, when you add in his physical attributes Sheamus becomes a credible choice for Vinny Mac. The Triple H connection may have only sped up his rise, but if I remember correctly a few years ago there was a buzz about SO'S work on the Internet.

[lazorbeak]

I have always wondered about the star quality thing. I have never looked at Swagger and thought of him as a person who should be placed past US and IC rankings. Sheamus also in comparison to the size of other main eventers does not look like a star either to me. Pale skin and red hair suddenly works? I don't know I personally look at star quality as a way the person connects with the crowd. If the crowd doesn't care that the person is out there than they are not doing their job and should not be showcased. Someone like William Regal, who can connect to the crowds to get the reaction he wants is someone I find to be an excellent draw. You don't have to look like a ferocious monster to be one, you just have to be able to make people believe you are.

 

In TEW terms what you're describing is charisma. If a casual fan sees Regal in the ring their immediate reaction is "that guy is old and fat," and that directly opposes any desire to watch the show or pay to see him at a later time. I agree Regal has great charisma but between his age and his personal demons he's never going to be a top guy.

 

Also I don't know what you mean by Sheamus lacking size compared to other main eventers: he's bigger than everyone on the roster that isn't a "monster" and he has the kind of athleticism that anybody over 6'6 is going to struggle with.

 

And yeah, having a unique look that is both unusual and marketable does work. When he turns babyface the Celtic Cross is already in his iconography so it'll easily sell t-shirts to the 90% of the population in the US that thinks they're Irish.

 

I absolutely disagree that Swagger has that "star quality" right now. Maybe someday, but, no. He has a great amateur background (really, realistically plays very little into wrestling, especially WWE's style) he's not that great at the mic, at all, and not just because his lisp.

 

He's not exciting to watch.

 

His finisher looks ok every so often, but, it's all that impressive/explosive/entertaining.

 

Star quality has absolutely zero to do with how exciting your moves or your finisher are. Again, Swagger is physically bigger and in better shape than every single guy in the IC/US leagues that isn't the current IC champion. He was groomed as a superstar in waiting from the moment he appeared: could you give the same gimmick/push to a guy like Zach Ryder or even Dolph Ziggler?

 

But yeah, "star quality" isn't a thing that tends to increase with age, barring rampant steroid use.

[shawn michaels]

In TEW terms what you're describing is charisma. If a casual fan sees Regal in the ring their immediate reaction is "that guy is old and fat," and that directly opposes any desire to watch the show or pay to see him at a later time. I agree Regal has great charisma but between his age and his personal demons he's never going to be a top guy.

 

Also I don't know what you mean by Sheamus lacking size compared to other main eventers: he's bigger than everyone on the roster that isn't a "monster" and he has the kind of athleticism that anybody over 6'6 is going to struggle with.

 

And yeah, having a unique look that is both unusual and marketable does work. When he turns babyface the Celtic Cross is already in his iconography so it'll easily sell t-shirts to the 90% of the population in the US that thinks they're Irish.

 

 

 

Star quality has absolutely zero to do with how exciting your moves or your finisher are. Again, Swagger is physically bigger and in better shape than every single guy in the IC/US leagues that isn't the current IC champion. He was groomed as a superstar in waiting from the moment he appeared: could you give the same gimmick/push to a guy like Zach Ryder or even Dolph Ziggler?

 

But yeah, "star quality" isn't a thing that tends to increase with age, barring rampant steroid use.

 

 

I think the fact that Reagal never made it big time had nothing to do with his personal deamons. But can you remember what he said when he was pushed in EWR? I lmao the first time i pushed the guy to the main event.

[Stennick]

What did he say I haven't played EWR in about 6 years.

[shawn michaels]

What did he say I haven't played EWR in about 6 years.

 

This: "May i say it's a bloody pleasure to finally work with a booker who pushes me. Good show!" While it isn't a funny sentence by itself, i laughed at it the first time i saw it as it caught me off guard...and it is true.

[Stennick]

I'm a sucker for anything British so I would have laughed as well. I find myself watching Buffy just so I can hear Spike's dialogue when he gets pissed off or aggrovated at something.

[TommyDreamerFan]

Random Chris Benoit memory...

 

Was clicking around Wiki, and re-read his article and I thought of the last time I saw him on TV before the incident. ECW, he beats Elijah Burke to advance in the tournament. Rolls out of the ring, not with any great passion like a "winner" should but he moves in a more exhausted motion. He goes up to the podium, where the vacant ECW title lay on a red velvet pillow. And Chris, he takes his hand and lightly drapes it across the title.

 

At the time I thought it was odd, it just seemed very... Out of character. It didn't seem at all like the title mattered to him, and obiously we know it didn't.

 

When I think back to it now, and I'm shocked how clearly I do recall it, it seems almost to me like it was the last bit of Benoit giving up hope. At Wrestlemania 20 he had been a maineventer, along with his best friend. Now he was working the C-Show with a bunch of no-names, his best friend dead and worse exploited post-mortem. I think of that memory, and I think Chris Benoit died with the hand brushing softly over the title belt. It's a heart breaking memory.

 

Sorry about that, didn't mean to drench up bad stuff, but that memory has been sitting in my head for a while and decided I needed to share it with someone.

[fatallylost]

Star quality has absolutely zero to do with how exciting your moves or your finisher are. Again, Swagger is physically bigger and in better shape than every single guy in the IC/US leagues that isn't the current IC champion. He was groomed as a superstar in waiting from the moment he appeared: could you give the same gimmick/push to a guy like Zach Ryder or even Dolph Ziggler?

 

But yeah, "star quality" isn't a thing that tends to increase with age, barring rampant steroid use.

 

I understand your points... but, I think you confuse "being big" with "star quality" because everytime you disagree with me, your point is that someone is big. Big does not make a quality star.

 

And this isn't being an ass, but, an honest question.

 

Swagger has a gimmick? All his gimmick seems to be is saying the word American as many times as he can. He is an amateur wrestler, and that's the only other thing that seems to be put out there. That might not be a real idea of a gimmick

[lazorbeak]

I think the fact that Reagal never made it big time had nothing to do with his personal deamons. But can you remember what he said when he was pushed in EWR? I lmao the first time i pushed the guy to the main event.

 

I guess I'm not clear on what you're saying... if you're saying he probably would've have been a main eventer anyway I tend to agree, but I'm not sure how you can argue drug and alcohol abuse didn't negatively effect his career since it essentially took him off television during some of the most profitable years in the business' history. He was fired from WCW in '98 and then made limited appearances for WWF before checking into rehab and getting fired again, and when he finally came back to WCW he was used mostly as an enhancement talent, culminating in him losing a career vs. title match against Hacksaw freaking Duggan. Maybe if Regal didn't have these issues he still wouldn't have been a top star but I have to believe he would've been bigger then that.

[lazorbeak]

I understand your points... but, I think you confuse "being big" with "star quality" because everytime you disagree with me, your point is that someone is big. Big does not make a quality star.

 

And this isn't being an ass, but, an honest question.

 

Swagger has a gimmick? All his gimmick seems to be is saying the word American as many times as he can. He is an amateur wrestler, and that's the only other thing that seems to be put out there. That might not be a real idea of a gimmick

 

Yeah, I disagree with you when you talk about people growing star quality or it being connected to how exciting their finisher is. Because that makes no sense. And yeah, being big in itself doesn't automatically make you a superstar. Viscera was not a star. Giant Silva was not a star. Hell, Test ended up not being a star. But if you don't see where the two are related, I don't know what to tell you other than try watching things the way a viewer does and not the way a smark who reads a recap does. A big guy almost always has an easier time getting over. Imagine if you gave the Kane gimmick to somebody six feet tall? All other things being equal, would he be main eventing pay per views inside a year from the character's debut? I seriously doubt it. Again, it's not just size, but size is really the one thing you absolutely cannot teach, and as I've repeated about a million times, in a medium where the appearance of being a bad-ass is more important than actually being a bad-ass, size makes a difference. Seriously how many times have I had to give this same shpiel? Yes, I know the two things aren't synonymous. But they are related, and when people who play a computer game that has a stat specifically for this sort of thing say things like "well it's just because Vince has a hard-on for big guys" or "Sheamus only got pushed because he's Triple H's workout buddy" it makes my head asplode because it shows that some sort of mental block has prevented them from putting 2 and 2 together.

 

And yes, Swagger has a gimmick. The ****y grin, the push-ups, the ring attire, the all-american-american bit? What do you think that is? Do you think he goes around doing that on his days off? Honestly it's great that he doesn't have a "gimmicky" gimmick because it means no matter what type of role he's used in he can still play a similar character and he's the one that gets over, not just the gimmick.

[MrCanada]

It just occured to me, with Mickie James gone, WWE is down to only three girls that have any form of in-ring talent: Beth Phoenix & Nattie Neidhart.

 

I WOULD'VE included Gail Kim, but WWE is like Kryptonite to her it seems. She has moments of showing great skill (See TNA) but in WWE just is generic and kind of worthless.

[Stennick]

They have several girls that can work they just don't show case them in that way. Melina, Beth, Nattie, Jillian, Gail, etc.

 

I've seen Melina vs. Jillian before and that was a really good match so they have several that can work their just not presented that way on television.

[fatallylost]

Yeah, I disagree with you when you talk about people growing star quality or it being connected to how exciting their finisher is. Because that makes no sense. And yeah, being big in itself doesn't automatically make you a superstar. Viscera was not a star. Giant Silva was not a star. Hell, Test ended up not being a star. But if you don't see where the two are related, I don't know what to tell you other than try watching things the way a viewer does and not the way a smark who reads a recap does. A big guy almost always has an easier time getting over. Imagine if you gave the Kane gimmick to somebody six feet tall? All other things being equal, would he be main eventing pay per views inside a year from the character's debut? I seriously doubt it. Again, it's not just size, but size is really the one thing you absolutely cannot teach, and as I've repeated about a million times, in a medium where the appearance of being a bad-ass is more important than actually being a bad-ass, size makes a difference. Seriously how many times have I had to give this same shpiel? Yes, I know the two things aren't synonymous. But they are related, and when people who play a computer game that has a stat specifically for this sort of thing say things like "well it's just because Vince has a hard-on for big guys" or "Sheamus only got pushed because he's Triple H's workout buddy" it makes my head asplode because it shows that some sort of mental block has prevented them from putting 2 and 2 together.

 

Yet.. once again, you're only real point is that "big man good" It's completely idiotic to say something like, let's say, give Curt Hawkins Kane's gimmick, and see how it works. Dude, Kane was billed as a monster. That gimmick in itself means you either have to be tall, or, very muscular (and even with not being tall, you still have to be, maybe, 6'2 minimum) so, that's not even a valid argument.

 

Here's one. Give Kane's Shawn Michaels' gimmick.

 

And yes, Swagger has a gimmick. The ****y grin, the push-ups, the ring attire, the all-american-american bit? What do you think that is? Do you think he goes around doing that on his days off? Honestly it's great that he doesn't have a "gimmicky" gimmick because it means no matter what type of role he's used in he can still play a similar character and he's the one that gets over, not just the gimmick.

 

I know what the character is, in a sense, but, I don't know how to explain it so you get it. He's an amateur wrestler.. as far as I can tell, that's his gimmick. He's a heel, so, he's ****y. That's wrestling 101 (withe the exception of the few faces that can really pull off being ****y, and loved.)

[lazorbeak]

Yes, I know the two things aren't synonymous. But they are related, and when people who play a computer game that has a stat specifically for this sort of thing say things like "well it's just because Vince has a hard-on for big guys" or "Sheamus only got pushed because he's Triple H's workout buddy" it makes my head asplode because it shows that some sort of mental block has prevented them from putting 2 and 2 together.

 

Yet.. once again, you're only real point is that "big man good" It's completely idiotic to say something like, let's say, give Curt Hawkins Kane's gimmick, and see how it works. Dude, Kane was billed as a monster. That gimmick in itself means you either have to be tall, or, very muscular (and even with not being tall, you still have to be, maybe, 6'2 minimum) so, that's not even a valid argument.

 

*Head Explode*

 

It's "completely idiotic" and "not even a valid argument" (also it's evidence, not an argument) to show how a character that won the WWF title less than a year after he debuted the character could only be of a certain size? Do you not read the things I write or do you just not understand? And after I take the time to explain how size and having a look are related but not the same it's just insulting to have you characterize what I said as "big man good."

[fatallylost]

Dude, I said it because EVERY response you make (and, just for the sake of you not bitching, ok, most, maybe one or two of your replies you haven't) is always about star power/quality = big man. Your examples are ALWAYS big men.

 

You do get that about 75-80% of someone, in the WWE's universe's main event push, is due to size, which Vince loves. You know this, right? I don't fault him, it's his company, and he should do exactly as he wants.

 

But, big doesn't mean people care.

 

If John Cena got as much air time as, say, Zack Ryder, no one would care about him either.

 

It's always about face time. Batista, for most of his time as a main eventer, has not impressed me one bit. He's slow, plodding, and until his recent heel turn, his promos were stale, boring, and had no point.

 

And even now, he's only barely tolerable.

 

Also, since I forgot to point out, I don't look at wrestling as "a smark" or "read the recaps" I watch every show (except Superstars, and I missed NXT this week) I go to as many shows as I'm able to out here.

 

So, before you assume ****, just don't.

 

I've been around long enough to have dealt with the crap of pushing Sid, Giant Gonzalez (sort of pushing anyway), Scott Steiner (after his roid implantation),Goldberg (who is probably the best of the big guys I'll note here), Khali.. need I go on?

 

I'm not impressed by someone just because their genes made them <fill in blank> Shelton Benjamin is a great wrestler, and I will not debate you on that. Brock Lesnar was decent, just looked odd in the ring at times. I like people who entertain me. This is what you don't get. John Cena does not entertain me.. which is sad, I love poop jokes, he just ain't funny.

 

I would rather watch the likes of Bryan Danielson, Christopher Daniels, Davey Richards, and the such.

[The Masked Orange]

I would rather watch the likes of Bryan Danielson, Christopher Daniels, Davey Richards, and the such.

 

Say I'ma casual viewer. I like buying merchandise and giving the WWE lot's of ratings and money. But firstly to get hooked, I need to like that show.

 

What? Some 5ft 7inch people are being pushed as the best in the world? This is too unbelievable for a sport, even one I know is fake.

 

 

Don't say that's fictional because I know at least eight people who act that way.

[Hive]

Say I'ma casual viewer. I like buying merchandise and giving the WWE lot's of ratings and money. But firstly to get hooked, I need to like that show.

 

What? Some 5ft 7inch people are being pushed as the best in the world? This is too unbelievable for a sport, even one I know is fake.

 

 

Don't say that's fictional because I know at least eight people who act that way.

 

I'm like that. I love watching Rey Mysterio, but not when he's picking up wins against guys like Batista, Kane, Big Show, etc consistently. He's a great cruiserweight, and he should fight similar people. Wrestling is fake, sure, but I still prefer when they try to make it just a bit believeable.

[fatallylost]

Say I'ma casual viewer. I like buying merchandise and giving the WWE lot's of ratings and money. But firstly to get hooked, I need to like that show.

 

What? Some 5ft 7inch people are being pushed as the best in the world? This is too unbelievable for a sport, even one I know is fake.

 

 

Don't say that's fictional because I know at least eight people who act that way.

 

That's the thing, or, my issue. I enjoy wrestling, not bodybuilding.