The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

Oh, WWE's current BS is getting to me. But as an issue, the WWE universe is WAY down the list.

[Stennick]

Actually, the numbers having increased or decreased. I never said, he was alienating people MORE than his drawing in. I said, his bringing in as much as pushing out. That means, while he DOES draw new people in, the way he is now, he pushes the same amount of out. He can't keep the people that WAS in, while drawing a new crowd.

 

I never doubted Cena is brining anyone new in. There's never been doubt about that. But he hasn't been able to retain the old audience. He's not LOSING more people more than he's bringing in, but you can't SEE that in numbers. You, however, can SEE it in crowds. it's the same number of people, except the crowd is colder and colder each year, and the people are different. More parents, more kids.

 

What IS true is you noticed, every so-called "Cena-hater" has moved on. The only reason I haven't is I believe Cena and the WWE can be saved. Why else would I subject myself to this? There's still time before they hit the point where there realized they boxed themselves in a corner.

 

I guess we'll agree to disagree but I respect your opinion and I'm glad this didn't get into some kind of shouting match. I'm not much of a "feel" guy I'm a numbers guy. I look at numbers being about the same or up the last six years in the areas that make money. You seem to be looking at crowds, excitement levels and feels. Just different ways of looking at the same thing is all I suppose.

 

I don't mind the WWE Universe in the sense that "what happens here is its own world". A lot of entertainment television shows, serialized dramas and what not have their own universe so I don't mind it in that aspect its just using it constantly that bothers me.

[The Final Countdown]

and ROH gets praised to the heavens.

Someone wasn't around for Final Battle 2009...or Jerry Lynn's title reign...or Tyler Black's many failed title shots...or the screwy non-finish to the match between the MCMGs and the KOW just a few weeks ago. Yeah...ROH's fans aren't afraid to criticize the company when they don't like something.

 

About the WWE Universe: I recently saw an article on WWE's website that referenced how the "WWE Universe" reacted to something that happened like 20 years ago. It bothered me more than it probably should have. Just felt really weird and out of place.

[Hyde Hill]

Someone wasn't around for Final Battle 2009...or Jerry Lynn's title reign...or Tyler Black's many failed title shots...or the screwy non-finish to the match between the MCMGs and the KOW just a few weeks ago. Yeah...ROH's fans aren't afraid to criticize the company when they don't like something.

 

About the WWE Universe: I recently saw an article on WWE's website that referenced how the "WWE Universe" reacted to something that happened like 20 years ago. It bothered me more than it probably should have. Just felt really weird and out of place.

 

Yeah I do know, I went a lit overboard to make the distinction clearer, but in general they are viewed in a very positive light.

[hellshock70]

If you want to know who's drawing, forget the PPV buy rates and check merchandise sales.

[Hyde Hill]

If you want to know who's drawing, forget the PPV buy rates and check merchandise sales.

 

That is a better one. Although problematic for some heels as they tend to sell less even though most of the WWE heels are cool heels now. Also the utility workers get kinda shafted in that system, eg the guys that round out the product and make the other guys look good.

[hellshock70]

 

WM26 850,000 - Taker vs. HBK

WM 25 970,00 - HHH vs. Orton

WM24 1,000,000 - Orton vs. Cena vs. HHH

WM 23 1,200,000 - Cena vs. HBK

WM 22 980,000 - Cena vs. Triple H

WM 21 1,000,000 - Triple H vs. Batista

 

The last 3 WM's have had a lower buy-rate then the year before. This can be the product of 2 possibilities:

 

1. The Economy

2. Wrestlemania parties were people get together for events. (Every time a bunch of us train together in my area on a PPV night we end up at one house watching the event and we had 17 people at one party.)

[Hyde Hill]

Apart from people being less interested off course.

[hellshock70]

That is a better one. Although problematic for some heels as they tend to sell less even though most of the WWE heels are cool heels now. Also the utility workers get kinda shafted in that system, eg the guys that round out the product and make the other guys look good.

 

They might be good and make other guys look good and round out the product. But, they're still not putting butts in the seats.

 

A question was asked of me a while back. Who would I rather wrestle Bobby Eaton or the Ultimate Warrior?

 

From a wrestler's stand point: Bobby Eaton, the guy is talented and will make you look better. He is also skillful enough to keep from hurting you.

 

From a Promoter's stand point: Ultimate Warrior, cause despite the fact that he isn't half the wrestler Bobby Eaton is, he would put more butts in the seat then Bobby would.

[hellshock70]

Apart from people being less interested off course.

 

At least in my area, they're not less interested. They are looking for more alternatives. This is why North Carolina has over 75 active indy wrestling companies.

[Hyde Hill]

They might be good and make other guys look good and round out the product. But, they're still not putting butts in the seats.

 

A question was asked of me a while back. Who would I rather wrestle Bobby Eaton or the Ultimate Warrior?

 

From a wrestler's stand point: Bobby Eaton, the guy is talented and will make you look better. He is also skillful enough to keep from hurting you.

 

From a Promoter's stand point: Ultimate Warrior, cause despite the fact that he isn't half the wrestler Bobby Eaton is, he would put more butts in the seat then Bobby would.

 

Actually they do, especially in the current days. As the overall product is more important then just the top guys. Just look at all the highpoints in wrestling. Yes you had your Hogan's and Rocks etc but at the same time there was also a strong tag division and/or hardcore workers and/or cruiserweigts.

 

Edit: Also as a promoter if there where not any Bobby Eaton's then there would never be any Warriors as there would be no one to make him look good.

[Jaysin]

So you'd rather she make much less per show for more work on the Indy circuit?

 

IF the WWE wants to hire her back, I'd rather her take the money. She deserves it.

 

She deserves the paycheck yes, but she doesn't deserve to be a laughing stock. She's a hell of an in ring worker and the majority of WWE's female wrestlers are jokes. Hell, even Melina who had so much promise has gone down the drain. She's gotten so sloppy in the ring. I'm afraid she's going to hurt someone.

 

Beth and Nattie are about the only two really talented divas left.

[hellshock70]

Actually they do, especially in the current days. As the overall product is more important then just the top guys. Just look at all the highpoints in wrestling. Yes you had your Hogan's and Rocks etc but at the same time there was also a strong tag division and/or hardcore workers and/or cruiserweigts.

 

Edit: Also as a promoter if there where not any Bobby Eaton's then there would never be any Warriors as there would be no one to make him look good.

 

Semantics. Because despite these guys making the others look good they're still not coming to see them.

 

Even Flair as good as he was in the 80's before the Horsemen, people came to see if Magnum T.A. or the other babies could finally take him down. They would beat Ric Flair time and time again but when the title was on the line 99 times out 100 they couldn't get the job done when it counted.

 

They came to see Hulk Hogan do the exact opposite. His opponents were built up (Studd, Bundy, Andre, Psycho Sid, Undertaker, even Zeus and many others) as these physical monsters and that Hogan didn't stand a chance. He would get beat up week end and week out. And when the big match took place he came through (except the Undertaker's shot at Tuesday in Texas). They switched it up to scientific wrestling masters for the smaller guys like Mr. Perfect. Or brutal brawlers like Bad News Brown.

 

edit: The tag division is so weak they had to unify the titles. And the Hardcore & Cruiserweight divisions no longer exist.

 

It's now about the bottom line and when the Big Boys go down who can step up and keep the butts in the seats.

[hellshock70]

If you're a fan of a good wrestling match then you'll want to watch Shelton, Angle, and guys who are really talented.

 

But if you want to be entertained then Shelton's not high on your list. And entertainment is what WWE is selling. That's why tomorrow night you'll watch a 2 hour show with 4 matches.

[ampulator]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

 

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

 

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

 

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

 

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

[hellshock70]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

 

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

 

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

 

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

 

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

 

This is so true.

 

IMO, CM Punk is an Upper Midcarder. He is a decent heel but he is far removed from the heel status that guys like Triple H, Undertaker, and many others including Hogan have achieved. The S.E.S. might have helped get him there but no one else in the group can give it the boost it needs. And when they unmask Joey a lot of people are gonna be let down.

[LoganRodzen]

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

 

This is exactly how I run my Global promotion in TEW.

[Hyde Hill]

Semantics. Because despite these guys making the others look good they're still not coming to see them.

 

Even Flair as good as he was in the 80's before the Horsemen, people came to see if Magnum T.A. or the other babies could finally take him down. They would beat Ric Flair time and time again but when the title was on the line 99 times out 100 they couldn't get the job done when it counted.

 

They came to see Hulk Hogan do the exact opposite. His opponents were built up (Studd, Bundy, Andre, Psycho Sid, Undertaker, even Zeus and many others) as these physical monsters and that Hogan didn't stand a chance. He would get beat up week end and week out. And when the big match took place he came through (except the Undertaker's shot at Tuesday in Texas). They switched it up to scientific wrestling masters for the smaller guys like Mr. Perfect. Or brutal brawlers like Bad News Brown.

 

edit: The tag division is so weak they had to unify the titles. And the Hardcore & Cruiserweight divisions no longer exist.

 

It's now about the bottom line and when the Big Boys go down who can step up and keep the butts in the seats.

 

Yep and the ratings are way way lower.

[Hyde Hill]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

 

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

 

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

 

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

 

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

 

Yep and while your main stars are a big part of the brand they are not the whole brand, they are the sizzle on the stake or the sauce if you will, but if its not supported by good meat and vegetables and isn't cooked aka booked right then it draws less. Kinda what I was trying to say.

[hellshock70]

Yep and while your main stars are a big part of the brand they are not the whole brand, they are the sizzle on the stake or the sauce if you will, but if its not supported by good meat and vegetables and isn't cooked aka booked right then it draws less. Kinda what I was trying to say.

 

And if you're eating a New York Strip or a Filet Mignon you're not really caring too much about the corn on the side either.

 

You'll eat it first to get it out of the way of the main course.

[MrCanada]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

 

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

 

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

 

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

 

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

 

This is basically the sum of everything, in a way I feel its been since WCW folded (if not shortly before then, when everyone started watching WWF and going to WWF events). For a time maybe it was the power of Rock & Austin, but after that it was the only show in town, so wrestling became "WWF/e" to most people.

 

The other big problem is the size of wrestling fans versus sports entertainment fans. With the line becoming more blurred everyday, I think people forget the old way of wrestling isnt true anymore. That simple. The old way of wrestling is a dieing thing. The last couple million people left who like that stuff during the '90's are now the same group on boards like this, and watching TNA already.

 

This is why TNA will never truley grow until they somehow become as trusted a brand as WWE or somehow rock the foundations of the sports entertainment world. They already have the wrestling world's attention. All couple million of them (dont forget, TNA's ratings are just based off of US TV ratings. Add Canada, the UK, internet, and the sprinkled other regions to that, its a couple million who likely watch impact in some way). Those are all thats left of wrestling fans.

 

Thats what sets WWE apart from TNA. Also I feel a lot of the fans now are the workers on the indy scene. Anyone can get involved in it these days. A main reason I think indy shows struggle is because the people who would go watch them, and get "smark" enough to know about them, end up wrestling on them... And thats also to say you dont often see random indy workers at other shows paying to watch. So guys who work crap local shows who then call themselves pro-wrestlers, dont then go to the bigger shows (be it ROH or the local "big indy") and are hurting the business they think they love.

[hellshock70]

Thats what sets WWE apart from TNA. Also I feel a lot of the fans now are the workers on the indy scene. Anyone can get involved in it these days. A main reason I think indy shows struggle is because the people who would go watch them, and get "smark" enough to know about them, end up wrestling on them... And thats also to say you dont often see random indy workers at other shows paying to watch. So guys who work crap local shows who then call themselves pro-wrestlers, dont then go to the bigger shows (be it ROH or the local "big indy") and are hurting the business they think they love.

 

You would be surprised how many guys you watch that got started on the local scene.

 

14 years ago I was on a show not 5 minutes from my house that included both Hardys, Joey Abs from the Mean Street Posse and Hurricane Helms.

[BHK1978]

Very true, in the early 1990's I saw HHH, Perry Saturn, and Justin Incredible on local shows all before they became stars.

[hellshock70]

this is the Jeff Hardy that appeared with me.

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/2270864832_7eef83a16a.jpg

 

how about Willow the Wisp vs Surge (Matt Hardy)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ivovaetFUc

 

How about a Serial Thrillerz (Shane Helms & Mike Maverick) Promo on the Hardys before Shane went to WCW as a member of 3 Count.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whohLJMcZkE&feature=related

 

And John Cena as UPW hywt. Champion before the WWE came calling and sent him to OVW.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLPT-4qbhUE

[Hyde Hill]

And if you're eating a New York Strip or a Filet Mignon you're not really caring too much about the corn on the side either.

 

You'll eat it first to get it out of the way of the main course.

 

Yep and if its bad the main course is ruined. As is the whole experience. The top guys can't exist without the lower guys. And the top guys draw a lot less when the rest of the card is not as strong.