The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Mr Rager]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=6808291

 

Enjoyed listening to this interview with Punk; give it a listen if you've got a spare 43 minutes.

[Rocland]

What the hell happened to Goldberg?

 

http://popwrecked.com/images/goldberg-1.jpg

http://popwrecked.com/images/goldberg-2.jpg

 

He's so tiny now. I think Gillberg would frighten me more.

[lazorbeak]

A lot of outrage over what Shawn Michaels did as a heel in pretty much his only heel run of the past decade. It's almost like that's exactly how the business is supposed to work. You mean you didn't like the things the bad guy did? He was direspectful of his opponent? The nerve!!!

[TakerNGN74]

Even though a lot of negative things are said about that match based on what people said they heard one wrestler or both say, it was the best match that Hogan ever had and he has Michaels to thank for it.

[The Final Countdown]

Even though a lot of negative things are said about that match based on what people said they heard one wrestler or both say, it was the best match that Hogan ever had and he has Michaels to thank for it.

I've never seen the match, but I find it hard to believe that it was better than some of the big matches he had at his peak.

[borman_48]

I've never seen the match, but I find it hard to believe that it was better than some of the big matches he had at his peak.

 

I have, and I'd say it tops damn near everything he did in WCW and onward. (Excluding those couple matches where the crowd took over in the moment, vs. Rock at Wrestlemania for example) I dont think it tops his stuff with Macho or with DiBiase really, but the match was far better than it ever should have been.

[bigtplaystew]

I'm still just enamoured with how much some of you guys know about who wanted to job to who and who refused and the psychology behind it and all the inner workings of what actually happened backstage. Very educational.

 

So... Shawn's "antics" were him having excellent ring psychology and working heel to the crowd for an entire match... then finishing the match as a face...

[TakerNGN74]

I've never seen the match, but I find it hard to believe that it was better than some of the big matches he had at his peak.

 

I saw it as I ordered the PPV it was on and it was a really good match, it's on the hogan 3 disc set (4 disc depending on where you got it) and I think it might be on one of Michaels DVD's that he had but I am not completely sure about that.

[Teh_Showtime]

So I guess Raw drew yet another 3.2 Monday. And the NFL will be back soon, it could reach dangerously levels.

 

On another note, I watched Miz and Morrisons Bragging Rights Dirt Sheet today...

[Teh_Showtime]

Also Re: that skit on Connan: I like how Archie predicted Raw perfectly. that is just funny

[Hive]

Ps: And hogan even bailed out to a second match where Shawn would win! YEs, i'd do the same as shawn. As Linsolv said, better do it like a man, instead of going behind people like a coward. Shawn Michaels, i salute you!

 

Yeah Michaels is indeed a real man who would never dream of going behind someone's back himself. He would never dream of backstabbing someone, burying someone, lying to someone... he's a true hero. All hail Michaels, who may or may not be Jesus in disguise.

[Teh_Showtime]

Yeahu Michaels even tried to hold down the Rock. Imagine if he got his way at WM 14 too. Shawn was just as big of a problem as Hogan.

[Hive]

Yeahu Michaels even tried to hold down the Rock. Imagine if he got his way at WM 14 too. Shawn was just as big of a problem as Hogan.

 

RAW may not have broken the ratings dominance by Nitro in that case. At least not on the following RAW, as they did.

[Fantabulous]

A lot of outrage over what Shawn Michaels did as a heel in pretty much his only heel run of the past decade. It's almost like that's exactly how the business is supposed to work. You mean you didn't like the things the bad guy did? He was direspectful of his opponent? The nerve!!!

 

Shawn turned babyface right after the Hogan match, apologizing to Hogan in-ring and basically telling him he did it all because he 'had to know' who the better man was. His Raw interview made zero sense as a babyface.

[lazorbeak]

Yes, because either Shawn or WWE or both saw no future in "1997 redux heel Shawn Michaels" and quickly turned face again. I just find it funny that he plays a character for a few weeks and people suddenly see it as "proof" that he's really like his character 8 years earlier, all the time.

 

And as far as "getting his way" at Wrestlemania 14? HBK thought his career was over after his Royal Rumble match with Undertaker, and was clearly just trying to last until March so he could hand the belt off to the guy that was obviously the top babyface in the company. His promos talked about not laying down for anyone and how he was going to game his way into keeping the title because he was a heel and as a heel he obliquely referenced his (legitimate and on-screen) beef with Bret Hart to get heat. But that was just to make it seem like less of a "well, duh" proposition that Austin was going over.

 

But yeah, almost every non-"company man" has played political games in the past. Guys like Hogan are/were masters of promising a return match and then conveniently disappearing to shoot a movie or take time off for injury before any rematch could happen. It's probably a result of growing up in the territories and seeing guys pull stunts like this on them. Austin, HBK, and everybody who grew up in the territory days tends to have at least one story about refusing to play ball.

 

Also, Beth Phoenix was on Colt's podcast today, and, to quote TEW, she really put over Molly Holly/Nora Greenwald as a great person. Not nearly enough talking about her CM Punk connections though. Cabana's whole show should just be talking about CM Punk, all the time (he has very brief cameos in the Zach Ryder and Chris Hero podcasts).

[Hive]

Yes, because either Shawn or WWE or both saw no future in "1997 redux heel Shawn Michaels" and quickly turned face again. I just find it funny that he plays a character for a few weeks and people suddenly see it as "proof" that he's really like his character 8 years earlier, all the time.

 

Right, so you believe that WWF told him to ruin the match by overselling Hogan's offenses, become a babyface right after the match, proceed to cut a shoot heel promo on the next RAW and then go babyface again the week after?

 

Besides, noone said the above was "proof" of anything. But some people, including me, see it as an example - together with a bunch of other stuff - of HBK not being as saved and improved as a person as he wants people to believe.

 

And as far as "getting his way" at Wrestlemania 14? HBK thought his career was over after his Royal Rumble match with Undertaker, and was clearly just trying to last until March so he could hand the belt off to the guy that was obviously the top babyface in the company. His promos talked about not laying down for anyone and how he was going to game his way into keeping the title because he was a heel and as a heel he obliquely referenced his (legitimate and on-screen) beef with Bret Hart to get heat. But that was just to make it seem like less of a "well, duh" proposition that Austin was going over.

 

Again you seem to base everything on what we see on RAW. The story about WM14 is that he initially refused to job to Austin, with some versions of the story saying that The Undertaker had to subtely threaten HBK in order to have him comply.*

 

But yeah, almost every non-"company man" has played political games in the past. Guys like Hogan are/were masters of promising a return match and then conveniently disappearing to shoot a movie or take time off for injury before any rematch could happen. It's probably a result of growing up in the territories and seeing guys pull stunts like this on them. Austin, HBK, and everybody who grew up in the territory days tends to have at least one story about refusing to play ball.

 

Indeed, there were/are tons of egoistical people in wrestling. But most of them kept the backstage politics from ruining the fans' experiences.

 

 

*The story I read says that the top dogs were in a creative meeting when HBK jobbing to Austin was being discussed. HBK refused, however. After a while, The Undertaker got tired of HBK's attitude and began taping his fists - advicing HBK to have agreed to do the job by the time he was finished taping his fists, or else he would make him do it.

 

I don't know if it's a true story, but it's entertaining nonetheless.

[Fantabulous]

The story about WM14 is that he initially refused to job to Austin, with some versions of the story saying that The Undertaker had to subtely threaten HBK in order to have him comply.*

 

*The story I read says that the top dogs were in a creative meeting when HBK jobbing to Austin was being discussed. HBK refused, however. After a while, The Undertaker got tired of HBK's attitude and began taping his fists - advicing HBK to have agreed to do the job by the time he was finished taping his fists, or else he would make him do it.

 

I don't know if it's a true story, but it's entertaining nonetheless.

 

Undertaker himself, on an episode Off The Record, confirmed the Wrestlemania 14 story that he had to 'suggest' to Shawn that it was in his best physical interest that he do the job for Austin. This was not Shawn playing up his past to add intrigue to the Austin match; this was Shawn not wanting to job.

[Hive]

Undertaker himself, on an episode Off The Record, confirmed the Wrestlemania 14 story that he had to 'suggest' to Shawn that it was in his best physical interest that he do the job for Austin. This was not Shawn playing up his past to add intrigue to the Austin match; this was Shawn not wanting to job.

 

Undertaker confirmed it himself? Well there we have it.

 

But... what exactly is "Off The Record"?

[20LEgend]

Don't know if this is where he's says it, but this is part one and you can find the other parts from there:

 

[lazorbeak]

Again you seem to base everything on what we see on RAW. The story about WM14 is that he initially refused to job to Austin, with some versions of the story saying that The Undertaker had to subtely threaten HBK in order to have him comply.*

 

 

Que?! How about the fact that he didn't wrestle a match after the Undertaker match (as I mentioned), and didn't work another match for 4 years? The fact that he was barely on TV and missed the February PPV tended to show he wasn't faking that particular injury.

 

 

I mean I'll give the wrist taping story the benefit of the doubt as far as something like that happening, but that doesn't connect to 'HBK refuses to job," it connects with "HBK was unhappy." His version, years after the fact, was that he was upset about the Tyson involvement, not putting Austin over. Maybe that's 100% not true either, but I really don't see enough evidence either way to go "a-ha, that proves it!" Especially since the version where he thinks he's going over makes HBK sound like an insane person. Everybody knew Austin was going over from January on. The entire show was already built around him by that point, and he'd never been champ. Compare that to the guy that needed two months off just to be in position to not come to the ring on crutches. Would a guy who believed his career was over really going to try to put himself over at the expense of the biggest babyface in the company, who's already worked with him in the past? Maybe he just hadn't noticed that the entire build-up going in was focused on Austin/Tyson?

 

 

It just seems like a slightly biased viewpoint to look at two weeks of programming several years ago and say "a-ha, I knew he hadn't changed!" Especially when he was clearly and self-consciously doing a version of his own on-screen heel act from almost a decade earlier. And, as mentioned, he made a Hulk Hogan match entertaining in 2005, which in of itself probably deserves a medal.

[Fantabulous]

 

The question gets asked at 4:51.

[Hive]

Que?! How about the fact that he didn't wrestle a match after the Undertaker match (as I mentioned), and didn't work another match for 4 years? The fact that he was barely on TV and missed the February PPV tended to show he wasn't faking that particular injury.

 

 

I mean I'll give the wrist taping story the benefit of the doubt as far as something like that happening, but that doesn't connect to 'HBK refuses to job," it connects with "HBK was unhappy." His version, years after the fact, was that he was upset about the Tyson involvement, not putting Austin over. Maybe that's 100% not true either, but I really don't see enough evidence either way to go "a-ha, that proves it!" Especially since the version where he thinks he's going over makes HBK sound like an insane person. Everybody knew Austin was going over from January on. The entire show was already built around him by that point, and he'd never been champ. Compare that to the guy that needed two months off just to be in position to not come to the ring on crutches. Would a guy who believed his career was over really going to try to put himself over at the expense of the biggest babyface in the company, who's already worked with him in the past? Maybe he just hadn't noticed that the entire build-up going in was focused on Austin/Tyson?

 

I don't think anyone claimed that he was faking his injury. And whether or not HBK was unable to see the match outcome coming is not for me to know, but if Undertaker says that HBK didn't want to lose to Austin, then I have no hard time believing that.

 

It just seems like a slightly biased viewpoint to look at two weeks of programming several years ago and say "a-ha, I knew he hadn't changed!" Especially when he was clearly and self-consciously doing a version of his own on-screen heel act from almost a decade earlier.

 

Oh... so if you're self-concious about being a jerk, it doesn't count? Gotcha.

 

Anyway, I'll buy that as the reason for being a prick in build up promos selling the match (like the one where he dressed up as Hogan and mocked him on a near-shoot level). But it still doesn't explain his promo from the RAW after the match, where the storyline was over and Hogan had left, and where HBK was supposed to be babyface.

 

And, as mentioned, he made a Hulk Hogan match entertaining in 2005, which in of itself probably deserves a medal.

 

I'm fairly sure that they could have had an entertaining match without HBK selling like it was clown school.

[Hive]

Don't know if this is where he's says it, but this is part one and you can find the other parts from there:

 

 

 

The question gets asked at 4:51.

 

Thanks guys, I'll watch them in a bit.

[BHK1978]

I have no problem with Hogan not wanting to job to HBK. The fact of the matter is Hogan is the bigger star and made more money for the WWF than HBK could ever dream about making. No matter if you like him or hate him (And trust me I hate him, actually I hate both him and HBK equally.) Hulk is a household name whose name trancends the wrestling industry. Whereas outside of wrestling HBK is probably not going to be known by many people.

 

Why should Hogan have jobbed for him? Shawn was already a superstar so the rub would not have mattered.

[Teh_Showtime]

It was the mid 200s though, I dont think Hulk was putting 80,000+ in seats anymore