The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[BHK1978]

It was the mid 200s though, I dont think Hulk was putting 80,000+ in seats anymore

 

Very true but at a certain point in sports people seem to earn the right to live off their past glories. Case in point, in 1973 Willie Mays made the NL All-Star team. This was not the Say Hey Kid who wowed the baseball world in the 1950 and 60's. It was a broken down old man (Well in real life 42 isn't old but in sports it is ancient.) who could bearly play the Outfield.

 

Should he have been on the team? Going by stats probably not. However, he made the team because of what he once was and the same applies to Hogan.

 

Hogan should have the right of refusal to job to Shawn because of all the things he did for the industry. Without Hogan becoming big, Shawn would have never been able to make the kind of money that he made.

[Fantabulous]

I wouldn't have had Hogan lose to Shawn either, but not because of the idea that because he drew more it means he shouldn't have to lose to Shawn. I wouldn't have had Hogan lose because, for one thing, people generally don't like to see the big returning legend lose. It can be a major downer for people who are drawn in by the return of the guy they knew from years gone by and then watch as they lose. You don't need to do that to people unless there is a damn good reason for the legend to lose. And I think the only two reasons are because he's facing the next major star and it's to make statement that the other guy is the real deal and you should treat him as such, or if he's facing another legend and,well, unless you can come up with a non-finish that won't piss people off, one of them has to go down.

[Imarevenant]

Very true but at a certain point in sports people seem to earn the right to live off their past glories. Case in point, in 1973 Willie Mays made the NL All-Star team. This was not the Say Hey Kid who wowed the baseball world in the 1950 and 60's. It was a broken down old man (Well in real life 42 isn't old but in sports it is ancient.) who could bearly play the Outfield.

 

Sounds like a certain Yankee shortstop doesn't it

[BHK1978]

Sounds like a certain Yankee shortstop doesn't it

 

You know I actually was going to use him as the example but Willie on the Mets was a joke at the end of his career. Jeter has not entered into that realm...yet.

[bigtplaystew]

I think some of you are overexaggerating what happened in the match. It's a character flaw among smarks, we think we know everythign when all we know is what's been given to us.

[Fantabulous]

I think some of you are overexaggerating what happened in the match. It's a character flaw among smarks, we think we know everythign when all we know is what's been given to us.

 

Some don't even know that much...

 

Shawn's selling in that much was comical in its ridiculousness. But hey, when he a does one of the most absurdly over-the-top bumps of all time...

 

http://youtu.be/XyN5sAShqOA

 

skip to 02:08 of this video which showcases all of Shawn's silly bumps....

 

it's over exaggerating to call it ridiculous.

[Guest codey]

I don't know if anyone watches Superstars or not, but the tag champs, Otunga and McGuilla...Guilla...McGill...Perfect's kid have jobbed two weeks straight. First, it was to the Usos, which I thought would lead to a title match, but the next week they faced Ryder and Santino, whom they also lost to.

[bigtplaystew]

I dont know that anyone claimed Shawn WASNT overselling. It's fairly obvious. The match overall really isn't that bad. It's been featured on several WWE DVDs so I mean it's not like it's this big deal I feel liek some make it out to be.

 

My problem with this entire discussion is the behind the scenes fantasy talk and the absolute certainty some guys have when discussing it.

[Hive]

My problem with this entire discussion is the behind the scenes fantasy talk and the absolute certainty some guys have when discussing it.

 

Who are you to be able to dismiss it all as "fantasy" talk? Do you know stuff the rest of us don't? The rest of us base our statements and opinions on what we read and/or see, like the video of The Undertaker saying that HBK didn't want to do the Austin job untill he "encouraged" him. Are you saying he's a liar? Are you saying you know better than him?

[Moe Hunter]

Oh right. So because he feels that Hogan is unprofessional BACKSTAGE, it's a totally acceptable response to be even more unprofessional IN THE RING, in front of millions of paying fans?

 

Okay, so let's say Shawn didn't oversell anything in the match. It just plays out straight. Shawn falls over every time legitimately acting as if Hogan's super weak punches are doing real damage, not comically blowing them out of proportion. The biggest move of the match is when Hogan can *barely* pick him up on to the announce table.

 

We're left with HBK, one of the best wrestlers of all time (and *currently* a fantastic worker), apparently truly having a very difficult time getting any offense in on an old, broken man, and getting beaten badly by attacks with no force behind them.

 

Now... You say "acted unprofessional", I say "saved the match from being a terrible, boring, paint-by-numbers Hogan match".

 

Hogan has a rumor for being quite the jerk backstage, and I believe pretty much every word of it. But I cannot recall ever having seen him behave unprofessionally in front of the fans.

 

You've never seen him refuse to jump for Taker's chokeslam?

 

Also, with Hogan a lot of his unprofessionalism comes from simply NOT being in front of the fans. Tell me, where was he during the WHOLE feud with Orton? And who HAD to win that match?

[Hive]

Okay, so let's say Shawn didn't oversell anything in the match. It just plays out straight. Shawn falls over every time legitimately acting as if Hogan's super weak punches are doing real damage, not comically blowing them out of proportion. The biggest move of the match is when Hogan can *barely* pick him up on to the announce table.

 

We're left with HBK, one of the best wrestlers of all time (and *currently* a fantastic worker), apparently truly having a very difficult time getting any offense in on an old, broken man, and getting beaten badly by attacks with no force behind them.

 

Now... You say "acted unprofessional", I say "saved the match from being a terrible, boring, paint-by-numbers Hogan match".

 

Okay... after reading this, I must conclude one of the following:

 

1) You are blinded by your love for Michaels.

 

or

 

2) You are blinded by your hatred for Hogan.

 

or

 

3) You apparantly watched a whole different match than I did.

 

You've never seen him refuse to jump for Taker's chokeslam

 

I've seen that, yes. I had forgotten about it though. He made the Chokeslam look like crap, and it pissed me off when watching it. But I'm not sure whether he did it on purpose or whether he just messed up. If he did do it on purpose though, it is indeed unprofessional and bad taste both towards the fans but also towards The Undertaker.

 

I'd like to point out though that I'm no Hogan fan but I just I don't see how Hogan acting up is a carte blanche for HBK doing so as well. It cannot be justified towards the paying fans.

 

Also, with Hogan a lot of his unprofessionalism comes from simply NOT being in front of the fans. Tell me, where was he during the WHOLE feud with Orton? And who HAD to win that match?

 

I did not watch WWE back then and have no idea how much he was featured leading up to the match. I only saw a few clips pre-match, like the one where Orton RKO'ed him on a car. But I fail to see how Hogan not being a lot on RAW for a storyline says anything about his professionalism. Blame Vince for not booking him for those shows.

 

I will say though that I agree Orton should have gone over, it could have been a giant boost to him at that time (though it can be argued that he probably wasn't read for it, but that's another issue). But again: that's something he did backstage, not in the ring where all the fans can see it.

[Candyman]

I think some of you are overexaggerating what happened in the match. It's a character flaw among smarks, we think we know everythign when all we know is what's been given to us.

 

Well said. There's no other group in the world who knows so little and thinks they know so much. Well, maybe sabermatricians and baseball...

 

Very true but at a certain point in sports people seem to earn the right to live off their past glories. Case in point, in 1973 Willie Mays made the NL All-Star team. This was not the Say Hey Kid who wowed the baseball world in the 1950 and 60's. It was a broken down old man (Well in real life 42 isn't old but in sports it is ancient.) who could bearly play the Outfield.

 

Should he have been on the team? Going by stats probably not. However, he made the team because of what he once was and the same applies to Hogan.

 

Hogan should have the right of refusal to job to Shawn because of all the things he did for the industry. Without Hogan becoming big, Shawn would have never been able to make the kind of money that he made.

 

Bad comparison. Did they bat Willie Mays leadoff? Or when MJ made the all-star game in his last season under the same scenario, did he take the last shot? Willie Mays (or MJ or Jeter or any number of undeserved all-stars) being on the all-star team is analogous to Hulk Hogan being IN the match, in the SummerSlam main event, not winning it.

 

But that's besides the point. Arguing over whether or not Hogan should've won is pointless. The bottom line is Hogan agreed to lose a rematch and backed out. That's why HBK did what he did, and that's why Hogan deserved it. To say it was unprofessional or that HBK was wrong in any way is laughable. He should be applauded for his actions, not criticized.

 

Yeah Michaels is indeed a real man who would never dream of going behind someone's back himself. He would never dream of backstabbing someone, burying someone, lying to someone... he's a true hero. All hail Michaels, who may or may not be Jesus in disguise.

 

Right, because that matters. Nevermind the fact that HBK did all of those things before his injury, and none of them after his return, which is when the Hogan incident took place...if you've ever done anything bad in your life, you have to accept it with a smile on your face if it happens to you. That's logical.

 

If Hugo Chavez shot Fidel Castro, the world would still be a better place for it.

 

Okay... after reading this, I must conclude one of the following:

 

1) You are blinded by your love for Michaels.

 

or

 

2) You are blinded by your hatred for Hogan.

 

or

 

3) You apparantly watched a whole different match than I did.

 

It's funny, I was just about to ask if you were blinded by your hatred for Michaels or your love for Hogan. Or is it both?

[Linsolv]

Okay... after reading this, I must conclude one of the following:

 

1) You are blinded by your love for Michaels.

 

or

 

2) You are blinded by your hatred for Hogan.

 

or

 

3) You apparantly watched a whole different match than I did.

 

I apologize for being about to get all philosophical up in in this joint, but I'd say it's #3. We ALL see whole different matches every time we see a match. The reason we like wrestling is different for each of us. The people we like, we like for different reasons. Sometimes they're similar, but the subtle differences that we bring to the table mean that for me, airing grievances publicly is called "being a man," while for you, it's called "being a child."

 

For him, overselling wasn't a big deal. It's no different than any Ric Flair match I've seen. For you, it's a huge deal! Wrestling is all about the suspension of disbelief, and nobody jumps up after being kicked down so they can flop around like a fish out of water!

[BHK1978]

Bad comparison. Did they bat Willie Mays leadoff? Or when MJ made the all-star game in his last season under the same scenario, did he take the last shot? Willie Mays (or MJ or Jeter or any number of undeserved all-stars) being on the all-star team is analogous to Hulk Hogan being IN the match, in the SummerSlam main event, not winning it.

 

How so? How does Willie Mays leading off the All-Star game matter? My point was that Hogan (much like Willie Mays) has earned the right to refuse who he was going to lose to because of his past glory. Much like Willie Mays, he was broken down and probably should have lost to HBK but because of who he was he did not.

 

I am saying he earned the right to win the match because of what he had done in the past. Willie Mays, Derek Jeter, etc. earned the right to play in All-Star games because the earned it no matter how far past their prime they are.

[BHK1978]

Well said. There's no other group in the world who knows so little and thinks they know so much. Well, maybe sabermatricians and baseball...

 

Wanted to add that I think Sabermetrics is bull crap. You just look at the stats that have worked for 130 some odd years. They have worked for that long so why change it.

 

Now in regards to the comment of, “There is not other group in the world who knows so little and thinks they know so much.”

 

Well as Hive said most of the time smarks (which I do not consider myself to be one) go by what they have read and by accounts of the actual wrestlers. Granted there could be lying involved but the fact of the matter is until other evidence comes up to the contrary we have to go by what was said.

 

I guess you are right, going by information that was put out there by people that were actually involved in the situation makes us ill informed. Not sure what kind of bizarre logic that is.

[Hive]

if you've ever done anything bad in your life, you have to accept it with a smile on your face if it happens to you. That's logical.

 

No but if you have a habbit of punching random people on the street, you have no right bitching when someone decides to do it to you. Karma and all.

 

It's funny, I was just about to ask if you were blinded by your hatred for Michaels or your love for Hogan. Or is it both?

 

Oh my effing God... are you seriously going there? When on earth did I EVER hint a love for Hogan? On the contrary, I stated that I do not particularly like the guy. But apparantly, that didn't go through. So I'll try again: I do NOT like Hulk Hogan. I think he's a selfish egomaniac who throughout his career has done a lot of stuff that was hurtful to other wrestlers' careers and to the business as a whole (like refusing to job to Bret Hart). I do NOT like Hogan. I respect his achievements, just like I respect HBK's achievements, but that doesn't mean I have to like either.

 

But... and I repeat this, because either it doesn't go through to people or they instead just disagree and thinks it's perfectly okay to flip the paying fans the bird: I just don't see that it in any way makes it okay for Michaels to act up and try to ruin the match for paying fans who expected a serious bout. And it doesn't matter how much crap Hogan has pulled backstage throughout the years, even if he may have pulled more than HBK (which depends on how you look at it, I guess): it still is NEVER okay to let your ego triumph over the fans. If I want to watch a comedy match, I'll watch Chikara and not WWE. Was the match good? For a lot of people, yes. But I'll still claim that it could have been a lot better, had Michaels acted like a professional.

 

But yes, I have a strong dislike for HBK as a person (and for Hogan as a person as well). But I respect HBK as a performer, and usually enjoy his matches. That is, when he doesn't decide to ruin them with clown antics.

[Hive]

I guess you are right, going by information that was put out there by people that were actually involved in the situation makes us ill informed. Not sure what kind of bizarre logic that is.

 

Well said, good sir.

[Gabbo]

If that match happened in WCW and the overselling was done by someone else, maybe DDP or Nash it would be wrestlecrap, but HBK kinda gets a free pass because everyone loves him.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right, and wrestling has to be treated as a marks game so exposing the business like HBK did does nothing to help anyone. I really don't like Hogan and understand the situation HBK was placed in, but it all comes down to two egotistical men that shouldn't have been placed in that position in the first place.

[Hive]

If that match happened in WCW and the overselling was done by someone else, maybe DDP or Nash it would be wrestlecrap, but HBK kinda gets a free pass because everyone loves him.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right, and wrestling has to be treated as a marks game so exposing the business like HBK did does nothing to help anyone. I really don't like Hogan and understand the situation HBK was placed in, but it all comes down to two egotistical men that shouldn't have been placed in that position in the first place.

 

Exactly. Much more elequently put than my own ramblings. Thumbs up.

[Fantabulous]

I can see it didn't sink in the first few times so I'll repeat myself; Hogan never agreed to lose the rematch to Shawn, which would have been a cage match. He insisted on winning, and he had the contractual right to do so which is something else that doesn't appear to have registered, but he was willing to do a photo-finish ending where he would escape the cage seconds before Shawn did.

 

Shawn's promo on Raw was all about Hogan refusing to lose the first match, something he had the contractual right to do, and Shawn not getting Hogan to change his mind despite trying his best to do so. If Shawn was frustrated at having to lose to Hogan when he didn't want and had no way to avoid it, too damn bad on him for agreeing to the match without making sure he had a chance at getting to win in the first place. If Shawn had cut the same speech he did on Raw to just his friends, that would be one thing. But doing it on live TV when Hogan wasn't coming back and he knew it and it wasn't going anywhere and served no purpose but to rip into a guy no longer around, at best it was acting like a spoiled brat who couldn't get his way. However you want to paint it, it was unprofessional.

[Teh_Showtime]

Is anyone forgetting Halloween Havoc when mentioning Hogan never cheating the fans?

[Fantabulous]

Is anyone forgetting Halloween Havoc when mentioning Hogan never cheating the fans?

 

Ah, vintage Russo.

[bigtplaystew]

Who are you to be able to dismiss it all as "fantasy" talk? Do you know stuff the rest of us don't? The rest of us base our statements and opinions on what we read and/or see, like the video of The Undertaker saying that HBK didn't want to do the Austin job untill he "encouraged" him. Are you saying he's a liar? Are you saying you know better than him?

 

 

People lie, people get things wrong, people get misinformed. I've seen videos of guys telling me they killed a sasquatch. Video of a guy talking doesn't make it reality.

 

Is Undertaker telling the truth? Most likely. We all get a pretty good sense of how things are. It's no secret from various sources that HBK and HHH tried to bury just about everyone there was.

 

So I don't know where you come off jumping to conclussions puting words in my mouth.

 

That's ONE video and it has nothing to do with the Hogan match in question for starters. Anything the fans get as backstage info is probably carefully planned, especially from a long term employee like the Undertaker. Another thing is that I hope if you've been a fan of this buisness long enough that you should know that no one really tells the truth in pro wrestling. It's all one guy's side versus the other guys side.

 

So when you start going into what Shawn Michaels was thinking and behaving like backstage like you KNOW... not like you think or like you heard but like you KNOW... it's uncomfortable for me to read. Speculation is one thing. Thats what boards like these are for. But there's been people who are CORRECTING other people as if they know for a FACT exactly what was going on backstage during the Hogan / Michaels match. Thats when you go wrong in my book.

[Hive]

Is anyone forgetting Halloween Havoc when mentioning Hogan never cheating the fans?

 

Is this the "fast" count in the Sting match?

 

If so, I definately agree that Hogan was a major ass, if the rumor about him having the ref do a regular count instead of the agreed fast count is correct. And I have no reason to believe it isn't, since iirc both Bischoff and Hogan pretty much confirmed them doing it on purpose.

 

But he didn't take any liberties with Sting in the ring, he didn't oversell, he didn't phone the match in... he screwed Sting, which I (with Sting being my favourite all-time wrestler) definately is not okay with. But there's still a difference between burying other workers through backstage stuff and ruining a match for the fans (the fake fast count does fall into the latter category imo).

 

Though I have to say, Sting being insanely out of shape and deciding to stay prone after the "fast count" didn't exactly help the match in question either. And I say this as a major fan of Sting.

 

But again... and I don't get why I have to repeat this: Hogan being a jerk towards the fans does not justify HBK being a jerk towards the fans as well. It's amazing how so many people think it's great when HBK does it just because it's Hogan. What if he had oversold like that against, say, CM Punk? How many people would then defend HBK?

[Hive]

People lie, people get things wrong, people get misinformed. I've seen videos of guys telling me they killed a sasquatch. Video of a guy talking doesn't make it reality.

 

So your solution is to never believe anything people say, ever?

 

Please tell me you see a difference between an outlandish claim as the sasquatch one and saying someone, who has a bad repetoire in the first place, refused to lose a wrestling match.

 

Is Undertaker telling the truth? Most likely. We all get a pretty good sense of how things are. It's no secret from various sources that HBK and HHH tried to bury just about everyone there was.

 

Then why are you so determined to rule these backstage stories as fantasy lies? Don't you think there's a fair chance that at least some of the stories hold merit?

 

That's ONE video and it has nothing to do with the Hogan match in question for starters.

 

Uhm yeah but the video highlights from the Hogan match pretty much speaks for themselves.

 

Anything the fans get as backstage info is probably carefully planned, especially from a long term employee like the Undertaker. Another thing is that I hope if you've been a fan of this buisness long enough that you should know that no one really tells the truth in pro wrestling. It's all one guy's side versus the other guys side.

 

It depends on the claims made. Let me ask you: why would a guy like The Undertaker lie about the incident? Would he even become the kind of locker room leader he is if he was prone to telling lies?

 

So when you start going into what Shawn Michaels was thinking and behaving like backstage like you KNOW... not like you think or like you heard but like you KNOW... it's uncomfortable for me to read. Speculation is one thing. Thats what boards like these are for. But there's been people who are CORRECTING other people as if they know for a FACT exactly what was going on backstage during the Hogan / Michaels match. Thats when you go wrong in my book.

 

And stating that they are all naturally fantasy lies is better than stating they are fact? Besides, I don't think anyone stated those things as facts. I'm pretty sure I myself merely mentioned that I had read multiple reports and that I see no reason not to believe them, given HBK's reputation and the fairly trustworthy people behind the statements (like Undertaker).

 

Is there a chance that the story about HBK refusing to job to Austin is false? Sure, I guess. Is there a chance that the story about HBK being mad about jobbing to Hogan is false and him just happening to act like a spoiled brat in the ring being him having an off day? Well... maybe. But I refuse to believe that ALL stories about HBK being a jerk are 100 % fantasy. Heck, I watched an interview with his good pal Triple H yesterday in which he himself said that while HBK had definately improved after being "born again", but that he still showed his old self every now and then - and also that before HBK became "born again", Triple H hadn't talked to him for 2-3 years because he got fed up with him. And this from one of his closest friends in the business.