The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Rone Rivendale]

Ziggler's one of those guys that has been on the verge of being a major player but never really got that boost he needed the way other heels have during this time period. The guy can work everyone knows that, I just wonder what it is that's been holding him back from his major main event push everyone seems to think is inevitable.

 

Vickie Guerrero.

 

Not that she is a bad character, she is a much needed entity (manager) in today's WWE where people like her are in short supply. Plus she is a heat magnet.

 

But that's the problem, too much focus on Vickie and not enough on Ziggler. Being in a group can elevate a superstar, just look at Orton and Batista in Evolution, but eventually to make it to the very top you HAVE to do it on your own.

[Hyde Hill]

Ziggler's one of those guys that has been on the verge of being a major player but never really got that boost he needed the way other heels have during this time period. The guy can work everyone knows that, I just wonder what it is that's been holding him back from his major main event push everyone seems to think is inevitable.

 

Personally I think he is over rated and just the IWC's favorite (midcard) heel atm along with Cody. Objectively I would say there are maybe still questions about his mik skills and look as it pertains to size, as he doesn't have the non mainstream look that Bryan and Punk have to compensate for that.

 

Edit: In response to Rone yes Vickie holds both guys back but she was put with them in the first place because management questioned both guys mik skills. With Ziggler that is debatable more then Swagger. So Vickie is more a symptom then a problem. Be glad they still see enough in both to put her with them instead of giving them up as lost causes.

 

Edit 2: Personally I think both are midcard for life but that doesn't have to be a problem. Make em strong midcarders, make the midcard mean something again. The 3 hour RAW move will be a real test. Will they use it to elevate the midcard more aka widen the spotlight, or will they just make the beam brighter on the ME guys. I am afraid it will be the latter.

[djthefunkchris]

Personally I think he is over rated and just the IWC's favorite (midcard) heel atm along with Cody. Objectively I would say there are maybe still questions about his mik skills and look as it pertains to size, as he doesn't have the non mainstream look that Bryan and Punk have to compensate for that.

 

Edit: In response to Rone yes Vickie holds both guys back but she was put with them in the first place because management questioned both guys mik skills. With Ziggler that is debatable more then Swagger. So Vickie is more a symptom then a problem. Be glad they still see enough in both to put her with them instead of giving them up as lost causes.

 

Edit 2: Personally I think both are midcard for life but that doesn't have to be a problem. Make em strong midcarders, make the midcard mean something again. The 3 hour RAW move will be a real test. Will they use it to elevate the midcard more aka widen the spotlight, or will they just make the beam brighter on the ME guys. I am afraid it will be the latter.

 

This. I honestly hate the hair cut on Swagger, and liked him a lot more in ECW Brand, but now he doesn't have that look I thought stood out before. In ECW, I remember the way he come to the ring, the way he smiled enough (and as a bad guy) made me think he was going to be great. Don't know what happened with that, as I thought he would always be Main Event material... but now... Bland.

 

With Ziggler, ever since he come out and ran his hands through his hair and flips the grease from his hair on others, I felt he had something. I never thought he was "Main Event", although I felt he could dabble in it. Far as in ring though, to me Swagger is better.

 

Both characters could be quite a bit more interesting though. That's something creative needs to be aware of.

 

The whole roster could be so much better, if they concentrated on the lower cards (The reason I bold'd the quote above). IF we followed some really good story lines in the lower ends of the cards, the top end would be even more interesting. Something I've always felt people forget about. The low end, the low levels, the low rated, etc... This is your foundation. Build from your foundation (in games, WWE, everything you can see this to be the case with), and the top end will be strong. Let the foundation weaken, and your top end could crumble. In this case, we have a foundation that seems to be getting stronger, but on the very top we find ourselves being bored from seeing the same people go at it again and again (over time). Strong foundations give plenty of choices to the table, and can freshen the whole thing up.

 

I can go on and on about that, but I think everyone basically feels the same way in some capacity. IF this guy makes ratings boost.... Having him in every segment is just going to bore people after a while, and then you don't have that "special" boost anymore from having him on. No matter if it's John, Brock, Rock, or Undertaker.

 

Ratings drop (unconfirmed, at least I haven't seen this officially yet) for some reason with Bryan and Punk, or at least when it's only them two. I think that's why Kane is now involved. That's the thing though... They over-used Punk a while ago, and seem to be on the verge of doing the same with Bryan. They could totally mess up with AJ by doing the same with her. However, I do see the lower card shaping up with all the additional players involved, Goldberg's son, Brodus, Albert, etc.

[bigtplaystew]

Dude I dug Cody ever since the "Dashing" gimmick. LOVED that.. thought he did some real creepy Patrick Bateman-esque stuff there. I enjoy the way he reinvents himself when he feels he's run stale. I feel like he's trying something different with each opponent. It doesn't always work, but it's not the same old ho-hum crap you get elsewhere.

 

Love Cody in the ring too.

[Teh_Showtime]

Personally I think he is over rated and just the IWC's favorite (midcard) heel atm along with Cody. Objectively I would say there are maybe still questions about his mik skills and look as it pertains to size, as he doesn't have the non mainstream look that Bryan and Punk have to compensate for that.

 

 

Edit 2: Personally I think both are midcard for life but that doesn't have to be a problem. Make em strong midcarders, make the midcard mean something again. The 3 hour RAW move will be a real test. Will they use it to elevate the midcard more aka widen the spotlight, or will they just make the beam brighter on the ME guys. I am afraid it will be the latter.

 

I don't see how he is overrated. He is over, and he constantly puts on great matches. What else do you want from someone who want to push?

[Hyde Hill]

I don't see how he is overrated. He is over, and he constantly puts on great matches. What else do you want from someone who want to push?

 

For me personally again so not objectively. Overrated matches, (hes good at selling and standard wwe moves whoopty do) not that over, mediocre look, bad mik skills. Mediocre character (although that may not be totally his fault). Mainly over with smarks who like their midcard heels who are not the standard look. Not too long ago The Miz was all the craze. Also midcard 4life. Before that Dibiase, before that Anderson etc.

 

Of the current midcarders Barret has the best shot and overall skill set objectivly. Better look, better mik skills, good enough wrestler, appeals to international viewers.

[moon_lit_tears]

Ewww... a sarcastic game show metaphor. Seriously dude?

 

You're making the thread uncomfortable again. At least other self-important, snide a-holes on this board are clever and funny once in a blue moon...

 

Thank you. That means a lot.

But you're not even funny, so I don't think he meant you...

 

I do think WWE pushing the anti-bullying thing is silly. It's pure hypocrisy by nature but whatever, at least it's honest, in-your-face hypocrisy. Not only that but I think it's kind of pointless. No matter what side of the fence you are on with this bullying issue, I think we can all agree that very few children are going to stop and think about their bullying ways because David Otunga and Stephanie McMahon tried to talk to them about it. I've never been much of a believer in PSAs.

 

Bullying is supposedly on the downslide but I think it has more to do with a conscientious effort to discipline actions perceived as bullying by parents and teachers.

 

Either way, it's really just a public image campaign by WWE more than anything because they're an extremely valuable brand with children worldwide. It makes the company look good basically. I think more often than not it probably doesn't affect their booking and angles and it really shouldn't. That would only serve to insult everyone's intelligence.

 

I don't see how it's silly. There are many kids who watch and have role models they look up to in the show. Why not attract attention to it. Bullying is very serious and has been going on for years. If you don't think it's a major issue you obviously are out of touch with reality. It's not just in kids though. As you can see below there are some a-holes on the internet who think it's cool to be a jock on the keyboard, and I"d not be surprised if half of them are wearing girlie panties...just sayin..

 

Oh no, don't be confused. I'm uncomfortable because you're an unfunny joke who destroys conversations and adds nothing intelligent to anything ever.

 

And now you're trying to blow off your horrendously ineffective insults as good-natured ribbing? Ewwwwww....

 

And this is a wonderful addition to this topic. I see. Why don't both of you keep quiet or take it to PMs and let the rest of us continue.

 

Mitsukaikira, thank you...these posts are why I don't read this thread much...I mean seriously it's the effing internet...if you want to fight meet up and beat the crap outta each other...just keep it off of my good reading material...

[Fantabulous]

And this is a wonderful addition to this topic. I see. Why don't both of you keep quiet or take it to PMs and let the rest of us continue.

You're right. I shouldn't have sunk to his level with a response.

 

Orton's out and ADR is down for a while; short-term title change between Ziggler and Sheamus? Beating Ziggler keeps Sheamus strong but does nothing for a guy like Ziggler who could really go places.

[bigtplaystew]

You're right. I shouldn't have sunk to his level with a response.

 

That sound you just heard was mitsukaikira's post going over your head.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how it's silly. There are many kids who watch and have role models they look up to in the show. Why not attract attention to it. Bullying is very serious and has been going on for years. If you don't think it's a major issue you obviously are out of touch with reality.

 

I'm not interested in starting a flame war of biblical proportions so I'll leave my thoughts on bullying out of this thread, as it's no place for it. Regardless of how either of us feel about bullying, my argument is that WWE's stance on the issue is kind of meaningless. I never really commented that anti-bullying is silly. I said it's silly coming from the WWE. When they made fun of a man with Bell's palsy on several occasions, including their most recent live broadcast, I don't really feel the need to illustrate this point further.

 

I do find it curious that WWE can rip on neuropathy and still have the audacity to run "Be a Star" promos. I also wonder if they had the courage to go after race and sexuality the way they do medical conditions if viewers would be equally comfortable about it.

 

And don't get me wrong. I don't want to see WWE be less offensive. I want people to be able to think critically and understand the difference between a rude joke and harmful behavior.

 

As you can see below there are some a-holes on the internet who think it's cool to be a jock on the keyboard, and I"d not be surprised if half of them are wearing girlie panties...just sayin..

 

I love wearing panties. And they happen to be extremely masculine for your information. Keep my underwear off the board, please. I'm trying to read important comments on wrestling and my undergarment choices don't belong in a thread like this.

 

P.S. - I like you alot, MLT. We've talked privately and publically and it's generally been either fun or intelligent conversation. But I literally cant help myself in pointing out that you passively allude to mine and Fantabulous' childish banter being related to "bullying", yet you went on to make a crossdressing reference in a negative and insulting manner in the same post...

[moon_lit_tears]

Yes, yes I did...if you consider me giving you credit for picking out rather sassy looking panties...rude...I humbly apologize..

 

I like you too. We have had a few interesting chats. Now I'm not saying your calling bullying silly, The WWEs stance is kind of important For the viewers and themselves.

 

The WWE has always had a habit of not worrying about what's going on in the world and they have taken some lashings from people for it. This is their way of helping kids not feel bullied, because lets face it Wrestling isn't as major as it was 10 years ago. The number of fans have dropped and those children who still watch do get bullied a lot.

 

 

So the WWE uses this to help themselves and their fans. I mean really you see a five minute skit about not being a bully...is it THAT big of a deal that it's causing you to vent about it?

[bigtplaystew]

Does the WWE's stance on bullying bother me? No. I just see it as what it is: essentially a political move. If they actually gave a crap about how people thought about and treated each other they wouldn't do some of the things they do.

 

That's my initial POV when I chose to weigh in on a previously existing conversation. It's not like I woke up and said, "I have to get to the Grey Dog Forums and tell these people my thoughts on bullying and WWE!"

[moon_lit_tears]

Does the WWE's stance on bullying bother me? No. I just see it as what it is: essentially a political move. If they actually gave a crap about how people thought about and treated each other they wouldn't do some of the things they do.

 

That's my initial POV when I chose to weigh in on a previously existing conversation. It's not like I woke up and said, "I have to get to the Grey Dog Forums and tell these people my thoughts on bullying and WWE!"

 

i understand that, but really...aren't most views done by social standards just that? Political?

[bigtplaystew]

i understand that, but really...aren't most views done by social standards just that? Political?

 

Exactly! You followed my moronic rabbit hole down far enough that you actually see my point!

 

When I made the comment about how WWE is comfortable going after medical afflictions while avoiding other more socially prominent taboos like race and sexuality this is exactly what I was getting at. It's not like I'm sitting here wishing they'd be a bunch of gay bashers or racists. I just think it should be seen for what it is.

 

CM Punk, working as a heel at the time, used a gay slur to a fan at a house show and WWE had to publically pander to gay rights activists for WEEKS afterwards. Officials had meetings with GLAAD. There were public apologies abound. They took it extremely seriously.

 

Something tells me Vince won't have to meet with a special interest group lobbying for the image of bell's palsy sufferers. And he shouldn't. My point is that I just wish people were more willing to look at whats happening right now and just THINK a little bit about all this bullying talk and the true motivations behind it.

 

Is it dark and evil? Not at all. Kids being nice to each other is a great thing. But is anti-bullying always coming from a place of genuine benevolence? Not in most cases.

[Jaysin]

I just think people are incredibly too sensitive these days. Getting bent out of shape because someone you're supposed to hate insults you? Ridiculous.

[Hive]

CM Punk, working as a heel at the time, used a gay slur to a fan at a house show and WWE had to publically pander to gay rights activists for WEEKS afterwards. Officials had meetings with GLAAD. There were public apologies abound. They took it extremely seriously.

 

That was dumb as pure hell. A heel is supposed to be a mean-spirited jerk and noone should apologize for it.

 

I mean, what? WWE are telling me that it's okay for someone to physically beat an opponent up with kicks, punches, chairs and the like - but that the world crumbles if he calls him gay? Please.

[Hyde Hill]

While I understand this is a valid discussion and that it pertains to the WWE this is coming close to general political/ social views imho. I am of the political correctness is BS camp and it is entertainment with exceptions here and there as it pertains to direct attack ( bells). For instance heel using gay slur fine, heel attacking Kanyon's lifestyle full shoot on screen in 2002 not ok.

[moon_lit_tears]

Racism and gay rights are very touchy situations. The WWE would be stupid to go after something like this. Too many groups fighting on both sides to even THINK about putting themselves in the middle. Seriously Bullying isn't right. There is no middle ground on saying...oh it's okay because....No.

 

You can't compare bullying to gay rights or racism. There is no way at all.

 

MANY people are against mixing races, while many others are for it...and the rest of us just don't care what you do.

 

Gay rights. Many people are for it...many are against it..

Many like me don't care who you wish to be with as long as you're happy.

 

These are subjects that the WWE has NO reason getting involved in. They are here for entertainment not politics. The bullying angle is splendid in the fact it draws the younger crowd to the wrestlers and helps them know that they don't have to feel alone or have to put up with being bullied.

[Arrows]

Racism and gay rights are very touchy situations. The WWE would be stupid to go after something like this. Too many groups fighting on both sides to even THINK about putting themselves in the middle. Seriously Bullying isn't right. There is no middle ground on saying...oh it's okay because....No.

 

You can't compare bullying to gay rights or racism. There is no way at all.

 

MANY people are against mixing races, while many others are for it...and the rest of us just don't care what you do.

 

Gay rights. Many people are for it...many are against it..

Many like me don't care who you wish to be with as long as you're happy.

 

These are subjects that the WWE has NO reason getting involved in. They are here for entertainment not politics. The bullying angle is splendid in the fact it draws the younger crowd to the wrestlers and helps them know that they don't have to feel alone or have to put up with being bullied.

 

*DIES LAUGHING*

 

Yeah, dahlin, thats what it does.

 

It's not a total crock at all.

 

WWE trying to make themselves involved in bullying is the biggest load I've ever heard. I honestly hope they get burned in a huge way publicly for trying to act like they care. It'd serve Vince right.

[moon_lit_tears]

*DIES LAUGHING*

 

Yeah, dahlin, thats what it does.

 

It's not a total crock at all.

 

WWE trying to make themselves involved in bullying is the biggest load I've ever heard. I honestly hope they get burned in a huge way publicly for trying to act like they care. It'd serve Vince right.

 

Shuddupyou!

 

Seriously the WWE can't just sit back in the shadows and do nothing. They are going down. With fans and talent. It's not what it was 10 years ago. You have to admit that. Getting them out there is a huge step in the right direction.

[Arrows]

Shuddupyou!

 

Seriously the WWE can't just sit back in the shadows and do nothing. They are going down. With fans and talent. It's not what it was 10 years ago. You have to admit that. Getting them out there is a huge step in the right direction.

 

Name one kid they've saved from bullying.

[Self]

WWE's anti-bullying campaign is certainly hypocritical and deeply ironic, but I agree with the sentiment behind it. A lot of kids watch the show, and like it or not, television shows will help form their beliefs and values. WWE has a certain degree of responsibility to educate what is good and what is bad. Right and wrong. Wrestling has been describes as 'morality plays' in the past. A certain level of morality (vague and subjective as it is) should be in place.

 

Which isn't to say I think heels shouldn't use racist or homophobic or sexist insults. They just have to be used very carefully, and be presented as 100% wrong. Not cool. Not funny. Wrong. With lots of comeuppance and lamp-shading. Which is hard when it comes to homophobia, and calling your peers 'gay' is a cool thing to do on the schoolyard... or was when I was a kid.

[lazorbeak]

Name one kid they've saved from bullying.

 

Can we not do this? Beyond the fact that this is now how you argue anything, this whole topic is such a non-issue.

 

I wish I could steer the topic back to actual wrestling, but we're in the summer doldrums where there's really nothing I care about going on.

[moon_lit_tears]

Can we not do this? Beyond the fact that this is now how you argue anything, this whole topic is such a non-issue.

 

I wish I could steer the topic back to actual wrestling, but we're in the summer doldrums where there's really nothing I care about going on.

 

How exactly isn't this on topic?

 

We are having a debate on how the WWE runs their show.

 

As for one kid it's saved...Well that you can't exactly say because have you ever MET every kid who watched WWE? No you haven't.

 

Seriously Self put it almost perfectly except he didn't say I was totally right. Other than that he's pretty spot on.

[lazorbeak]

How exactly isn't this on topic?

 

I didn't say it wasn't on-topic, I said it was a non-issue?

[Astil]

Name one kid they've saved from bullying.

 

They're raising awareness on the issue, which in my opinion is all a company can really do. Unless you want them to send Orton to school yards and RKO any kid who picks on an other kid.