The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Hyde Hill]

Because he wasn't as successful as they hoped him to be given the push he was getting or as you perceived him to be, would be my short form answer.

[Jaysin]

The thing is they HAD the next Cena in The Miz. They pushed him to the moon and the fans loved to hate the guy. He had the big title. He held onto it for a while. He beat Cena at WM. He was on the talk shows and was doing all the other promotional stuff and was doing an excellent job at it. He has tons of charisma to spare.

 

And then they just stopped pushing him. And I don't know WHY. And he has now lost every single bit of momentum he had back then. And I don't see the Marine 3 being the way to bring him back up either.

 

I always read it's because once he got to the top, he stopped working hard.

[Hyde Hill]

Another factor is the general tendency for WWE to but someone into the main event scene for a while, see how he does, bring him down again, see how he reacts, push him up again, and possibly repeat. Punk had to go through that like 3 or 4 times.

[Renegade MMA 037]

one of my biggest problems in my mind with WWE is not realizing exactly what they have in their talent, Ziggler(although things for him are getting better), Jack Swagger and Zack Ryder come to mind

[Jaysin]

Another factor is the general tendency for WWE to but someone into the main event scene for a while, see how he does, bring him down again, see how he reacts, push him up again, and possibly repeat.

 

Miz got lazy at the top and even lazier after the depushed him. So I think if anyone is to blame for him not being at the top anymore, it's himself.

 

I'm a huge Miz fan though, so I wish he'd do whatever it took to get back to being a focus of the show.

 

I'm pretty bored of a slew of the main eventers at the moment though. Mainly Sheamus and Del Rio though.

 

I love Sheamus, but I'm just bored of his character.

 

Del Rio just hasn't done anything new since he debuted. His character is beyond stale. I think he'd make a great face, but I just want him to do some evolving or something to change it up.

[BurningHamster]

The thing is they HAD the next Cena in The Miz. They pushed him to the moon and the fans loved to hate the guy. He had the big title. He held onto it for a while. He beat Cena at WM. He was on the talk shows and was doing all the other promotional stuff and was doing an excellent job at it. He has tons of charisma to spare.

 

And then they just stopped pushing him. And I don't know WHY. And he has now lost every single bit of momentum he had back then. And I don't see the Marine 3 being the way to bring him back up either.

 

From what I heard, nobody can stand the Miz. He was fine in a tag team with R Truth when they were causing trouble but nothing else he has ever done has been any good. He's crappy in the ring, his charisma is way overrated. He's pretty meh.

[moon_lit_tears]

From what I heard, nobody can stand the Miz. He was fine in a tag team with R Truth when they were causing trouble but nothing else he has ever done has been any good. He's crappy in the ring, his charisma is way overrated. He's pretty meh.

 

I wish there was a like button...I'd push it a billion times...

 

The guy was way too c0cky. Seriously. He thought he could just ride the tide of being on that show Real world? I guess before hand...I thought he sucked..he's a douche and doesn't really come off as anything worth watching.

[Jaysin]

I wish there was a like button...I'd push it a billion times...

 

The guy was way too c0cky. Seriously. He thought he could just ride the tide of being on that show Real world? I guess before hand...I thought he sucked..he's a douche and doesn't really come off as anything worth watching.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Miz is actually fairly underrated. Yes, he does have a fair amount of fans, but the dude busted his ass to get them. He was put in crap roles over and over again until him and Morrison started teaming up. There was nothing for them and they ran with the ball anyway and forced people to look at them.

 

Cocky though? That's part of his character. Every person I know that's met him has said nothing but good things about his personality. Yeah, he was on a reality show, but so was Morrison.

 

*EDIT*

 

Smackdown's MITB members. I think this actually looks far more interesting than Raw's.

 

Highlight below

-Damien Sandow

 

-Christian

 

-Santino Marella

 

-Tensai

 

-Tyson Kidd

[Hyde Hill]

Uuugh they could have done much better.

[Guest codey]

There's less overness there, but more talent to work a ladder match well, I think. Not to mention (highlight):

 

 

Tyson f'ing Kidd getting a prominent spot! I know it won't lead to a push, but more exposure is always good.

[BurningHamster]

I find that line up kinda interesting really, It's not the expected crew which to me is a good thing but then I do tend to prefer a bit of variety.

[milamber]

The thing is they HAD the next Cena in The Miz. They pushed him to the moon and the fans loved to hate the guy. He had the big title. He held onto it for a while. He beat Cena at WM. He was on the talk shows and was doing all the other promotional stuff and was doing an excellent job at it. He has tons of charisma to spare.

 

And then they just stopped pushing him. And I don't know WHY. And he has now lost every single bit of momentum he had back then. And I don't see the Marine 3 being the way to bring him back up either.

 

That's when they should have turned him face, which they did with Punk a few months later. Probably what they'll do with Bryan down the track. Miz is still young so I have faith he'll have another main event run in the next few years.

[Moe Hunter]

When I started to reply to this I ended up with one of my famous huge posts, that my actual reply would have been lost in. So I'm trying to simplify it best I can.

 

You can't force someone down people's throats to make others like them more.

 

This thing about Cena is unique, and it's a shame no one wants to see it. He rises above all the hate for him, and kids eat it up. The more people boo him, the more the "next" generation will love him for being able to take it. It's not "cool" to like him, yet it's "very cool" for the next generation to like him. The more aggressively people are against him, the more he proves himself. It's a losing battle trying to de-throne him, at least in that sense. He is and always will be the biggest spectacle in modern wrestling, the most talked about (by far), and yes, the most "interesting". Resistance if futile.

 

You want to dethrone him, quit booing and start cheering for the people you want over him. Be silent when he's on live, cheer for others when they are on live. The more reactions he gets, good or bad, will just make him thrive. The louder, the bigger he becomes. Every time there is a "Let's go Cena/Cena Sucks" battle in the crowd, it becomes clear how important he is... as one tries to be louder then the other, it becomes even bigger.

 

That literally had nothing to do with my question at all. Do you think Cena would have had the same success if he got the push that Sheamus is getting right now? Same amount of wins, but opening every card instead of closing, while Triple H fights a string of opponents, including Bischoff, in the Main Event?

 

JBL just come off a 10 month reign, before Cena's 9 month reign, and he didn't blow up like Cena.

1. Cena blew up before his WWE Title win, and started being hated when he went to Raw.

2. JBL was a mega old-school heel. It wasn't his job to blow up, it was his job to make the crowd hate him on all levels. He did interviews outside WWE where he ranted against internet fans saying we were all the kids he stuffed in lockers, etc.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Cena gets a full decade more in as Main Eventer, before retirement, or falling down the card occurs. It's not like he's a decade over the others... I mean, Punk and Daniels are 31, sheamus is 34, and Cena is 35. He can do this til' he's 45 without a problem, if he doesn't have too many injuries. He hasn't even had the title half as long as Hulk Hogan had it... but he's had it longer then both Rock and Austin.

 

Which again, leaves the others where? Another ten years of playing second fiddle and never getting a chance to prove otherwise?

 

I'm not saying Cena is the best guy for the job for you, or even for me... but he is for the rest of the people, so it doesn't matter what we want, we aren't going to get it unless something changes.

Which brings me to a similar question... If Cena is so over that he doesn't need the belt, is he not also so over that he doesn't need to be the Main Event of every show? Will his fans really stop buying PPVs and merch just because he's not on last?

 

I'm actually enjoying this debate, I don't know why... I honestly would like nothing more then Punk or Bryan to go over Cena in a big way (I mean, OVER, not necessarily a match, but in overness)... but I would like it to happen without Cena actually dropping the ball or something. I want it to be them reaching even higher levels, if that makes sense.

Punk absolutely went over him last year, but they have not treated him as the champion he is. He broke out and they said "here's another ceiling". Same thing on a smaller scale with Ryder. He made himself way over, but because it wasn't Creative's doing, he doesn't get to reap the benefits of it, instead he's back to constantly jobbing and occasionally having a brief appearance backstage.

[milamber]

Old article but relevant to the Miz debate. One thing he's got going is that he's a natural promoting WWE outside the ring. Shame he's rubbing people up the wrong way backstage.

 

http://www.cagesideseats.com/2012/2/11/2792581/alberto-del-rio-buries-the-miz-in-a-public-interview

[Hive]

You have to youtube it. The match was great.

 

I did, and you were right - watching how the crowd roared as he called for the Powerbomb was awesome. And he's in a pretty impressive shape as well, doesn't look his age. He wasn't quite as good as Vader, but no worse than half of WWE's current roster. I like what they're doing bringing in legends at the moment, it's fun.

[djthefunkchris]

That literally had nothing to do with my question at all. Do you think Cena would have had the same success if he got the push that Sheamus is getting right now? Same amount of wins, but opening every card instead of closing, while Triple H fights a string of opponents, including Bischoff, in the Main Event?

 

 

1. Cena blew up before his WWE Title win, and started being hated when he went to Raw.

2. JBL was a mega old-school heel. It wasn't his job to blow up, it was his job to make the crowd hate him on all levels. He did interviews outside WWE where he ranted against internet fans saying we were all the kids he stuffed in lockers, etc.

 

 

 

Which again, leaves the others where? Another ten years of playing second fiddle and never getting a chance to prove otherwise?

 

 

Which brings me to a similar question... If Cena is so over that he doesn't need the belt, is he not also so over that he doesn't need to be the Main Event of every show? Will his fans really stop buying PPVs and merch just because he's not on last?

 

 

Punk absolutely went over him last year, but they have not treated him as the champion he is. He broke out and they said "here's another ceiling". Same thing on a smaller scale with Ryder. He made himself way over, but because it wasn't Creative's doing, he doesn't get to reap the benefits of it, instead he's back to constantly jobbing and occasionally having a brief appearance backstage.

He beat him, he wasn't "over" him, as in more overness, more popular, etc. Cena is known by people that don't know the difference between TNA and WWE is, don't know what Smackdown or Raw or Impact is, don't know who Undertaker, Triple H, or CM Punk is, but they know him.

 

Punk could beat him 10 times in a row, and it might not matter, far as that goes though, to be fair about it.

 

Cena will sell the merchandise no matter where he is on the card.

 

Wasn't the Royal Rumble the main event for the Royal Rumble? Wasn't Cena vs. Kane the third match of the night? Elimination Chamber was Cena vs. Kane again, in an Ambulance match (gimmick match). This was heading into Wrestlemania, and so I felt it understandable, as Kane tried to bring something out of him, building up to Rock vs Cena. Rock vs. Cena at Wrestlemania... A long build-up, etc. This has to be acceptable doesn't it? Extreme Rules he faced Brock Lesnar... Another high profile match. Over the Limit was a John Laurinaitis gets fired thing, a Big Show surprise, etc. Had to be on last IMO. Same with No Way Out, because Laurinaitis did get beat, and was fired, to me, had to be last. I don't know what's going to happen at Money in the Bank, since he's in that match. Depends on what they have planned for the match, to be honest.

 

In other words, every PPV this year made sense to have him Main Event, given the circumstances of what was going on with the match ups. This was brought up after almost every PPV though, so I didn't bother bringing it up before.

[Astil]

Jul 2011 - Punk over Cena - ADR Cash in right after

Aug 2011 - Night of Champions - HHH over CM Punk - Cena semi main over ADR

Sep 2011 - Hell in a Cell - ADR over Cena and Punk

Oct 2011 - Vengeance - ADR over Cena

Nov 2011 - Survivor Series - Cena and rock vs. Miz and Truth

Dec 2011 - TLC - Punk, ADR, Miz - Cena off show

Jan 2012 - Royal Rumble -Sheamus wins Rumble - Cena over Kane in Midcard

Feb 2012 - Elimination Chamber - Cena over Kane

Mar 2012 - WrestleMania - Rock over Cena

Apr 2012 - Extreme Rules - Cena over Lesnar

May 2012 - Over the Limit - Johnny Ace over Cena

June 2012 - No Way Out - Cena over Show

 

WWE's last 12 months. Cena puts over Punk and ADR, puts over Rock, gets wins back vs. Kane, Lesnar and Show

 

Works for me to be honest...

[bigtplaystew]

Jul 2011 - Punk over Cena - ADR Cash in right after

Aug 2011 - Night of Champions - HHH over CM Punk - Cena semi main over ADR

Sep 2011 - Hell in a Cell - ADR over Cena and Punk

Oct 2011 - Vengeance - ADR over Cena

Nov 2011 - Survivor Series - Cena and rock vs. Miz and Truth

Dec 2011 - TLC - Punk, ADR, Miz - Cena off show

Jan 2012 - Royal Rumble -Sheamus wins Rumble - Cena over Kane in Midcard

Feb 2012 - Elimination Chamber - Cena over Kane

Mar 2012 - WrestleMania - Rock over Cena

Apr 2012 - Extreme Rules - Cena over Lesnar

May 2012 - Over the Limit - Johnny Ace over Cena

June 2012 - No Way Out - Cena over Show

 

WWE's last 12 months. Cena puts over Punk and ADR, puts over Rock, gets wins back vs. Kane, Lesnar and Show

 

Works for me to be honest...

 

But...no...That destroys everything we know about wrestling...

 

 

are u sayin cena is...gasp... a good worker???

 

::mindblown::

 

 

:-)

[djthefunkchris]

Depends on what you are judging "good worker" by. If it's solely about win/loss, he's up there with Hogan.. Here's a comparison with %, from IWD.

 

Hulk Hogan

 

Type Win % Draw % Loss %

PPV 55 (63.95%) 4 (4.65%) 27 (31.40%)

Non-PPV 200 (61.92%) 30 (9.29%) 93 (28.79%)

 

John Cena

Type Win % Draw % Loss %

PPV 65 (61.32%) 2 (1.89%) 39 (36.79%)

Non-PPV 324 (66.53%) 41 (8.42%) 122 (25.05%)

 

Steve Austin

Type Win % Draw % Loss %

PPV 49 (51.58%) 5 (5.26%) 41 (43.16%)

Non-PPV 132 (57.14%) 34 (14.72%) 65 (28.14%)

 

The Rock

Type Win % Draw % Loss %

PPV 39 (51.32%) 2 (2.63%) 35 (46.05%)

Non-PPV 206 (58.52%) 36 (10.23%) 110 (31.25%)

 

 

Now, to me looks like The Rock deserves more credit then any of them. I'm not a fan, but like I said, you have to see what's in front of you to be able to see anything else... Or you won't get a good overall picture.

 

Looking at this, and seeing how close he is to Hogan, and as many people said Hogan wouldn't "job" out to others, or that was the complaint (he did lose obviously, looking above). Hogan himself claims he only used the "creative control" one time, and it was in WCW. I honestly find that hard to believe myself, but I have a feeling it wasn't as huge as people lead on too either.

 

Anyways, thought I would put it up there. I'm not trying to dump on Cena, but I wasn't really trying to defend him either... at least not him personally. I was trying to defend the rational thinking that COULD be behind the complaints of him being in the Main Event.

 

But a good worker... as I said, depends on what your rating good worker on.

[djthefunkchris]

Thought someone might be interested in these as well, possibly.

 

The Undertaker

Type Win % Draw % Loss %

PPV 91 (56.52%) 5 (3.11%) 65 (40.37%)

Non-PPV 350 (68.63%) 60 (11.76%) 100 (19.61%)

 

 

Triple H

Type Win % Draw % Loss %

PPV 77 (50.33%) 6 (3.92%) 70 (45.75%)

Non-PPV 305 (53.14%) 62 (10.80%) 207 (36.06%)

 

 

In my opinion it doesn't prove anything though... because you have to look at the match's themselves. Was there a reason they won? Was there a reason the opponant lost? Do PPV's matter more then Non-PPV match's?

 

You can make any of these guys look bad, or good... Depending on what you want to use as a base.

[Teh_Showtime]

Also missing that the Rock left pretty much when he was on top. His career was much shorter than Hogan or Cena.

 

Although he did put over Goldberg/Lesnar/ etc

[Hyde Hill]

Plus I guess these are all their matches and not just once they where a main eventer? But like you said its really interpretation etc. Ah well I felt like this debate had been explored fully a while back so didn't chime in.

[Stennick]

I think the Miz thing is pretty silly. The guy was by far the best heel they had for roughly six months to a year before he got the championship. The fact that people don't like him because he was a "D Bag" means he was doing his job. Crowd reaction is crowd reaction and he got some of the biggest reactions there was.

 

Seriously I love how people just create "this person was never that good or that person was never that good" in their head. I could pull up ten videos of the Miz getting booed out of the building. Nobody from Cena, to Miz to the Rock is drawing these days. The Rock wrestling at Survivor Series and competing in a ring for the first time since 2004 drew about 270 thousand buys that was up from 250 the year before. And since the year before that was 230 I wouldn't say that twenty thousand more buys is a big deal since they increased by the exact same amount the year before that. CM Punk's Summerslam match with Cena the Summer of Punk if you will? It had 14 percent LESS buys than the year before. So we can't use numbers as any indication of how good someone is. Because if thats the case nobody is any good and the WWE could put on a show with crippled midgets and most likely still draw the same amount.

 

The reason Miz was demoted is because they did the same thing to Sheamous , they do the same thing to Henry every single year, Jack Swagger anyone? CM Punk had it happen four times or so. Kane has it happen on a regular basis. Big Show anyone? There is John Cena and everyone else. It used to be Triple H, John Cena, Batista and Orton but these days its mostly Cena and everyone else so being up or down in the card is just a crap shoot. They have their WWE Champion in the middle of the shows these days so clearly nobody is looked upon as value except Cena. Its just the way it is and will be for a very long time.

[djthefunkchris]

Plus I guess these are all their matches and not just once they where a main eventer? But like you said its really interpretation etc. Ah well I felt like this debate had been explored fully a while back so didn't chime in.

/nod. It will be re-hashed again after the next PPV though, or the one after it. I don't really mind it, because I think most the time we have fun with it. My opinion's suck sometimes, sometimes change, etc.. but I try to be as objective as possible with them.

 

Also /nod to interpretation... That's ALL their match's, not just since they been Main Event, and the longer Cena lasts, the more I would figure his loss percentage will go down. You have to win more then you lose at that level, so... only a matter of time till the percentage goes down.

I think the Miz thing is pretty silly. The guy was by far the best heel they had for roughly six months to a year before he got the championship. The fact that people don't like him because he was a "D Bag" means he was doing his job. Crowd reaction is crowd reaction and he got some of the biggest reactions there was.

 

Seriously I love how people just create "this person was never that good or that person was never that good" in their head. I could pull up ten videos of the Miz getting booed out of the building. Nobody from Cena, to Miz to the Rock is drawing these days. The Rock wrestling at Survivor Series and competing in a ring for the first time since 2004 drew about 270 thousand buys that was up from 250 the year before. And since the year before that was 230 I wouldn't say that twenty thousand more buys is a big deal since they increased by the exact same amount the year before that. CM Punk's Summerslam match with Cena the Summer of Punk if you will? It had 14 percent LESS buys than the year before. So we can't use numbers as any indication of how good someone is. Because if thats the case nobody is any good and the WWE could put on a show with crippled midgets and most likely still draw the same amount.

 

The reason Miz was demoted is because they did the same thing to Sheamous , they do the same thing to Henry every single year, Jack Swagger anyone? CM Punk had it happen four times or so. Kane has it happen on a regular basis. Big Show anyone? There is John Cena and everyone else. It used to be Triple H, John Cena, Batista and Orton but these days its mostly Cena and everyone else so being up or down in the card is just a crap shoot. They have their WWE Champion in the middle of the shows these days so clearly nobody is looked upon as value except Cena. Its just the way it is and will be for a very long time.

For us, yep. For them, I'm certain they look at numbers.

[Moe Hunter]

He beat him, he wasn't "over" him, as in more overness, more popular, etc. Cena is known by people that don't know the difference between TNA and WWE is, don't know what Smackdown or Raw or Impact is, don't know who Undertaker, Triple H, or CM Punk is, but they know him.

 

Punk could beat him 10 times in a row, and it might not matter, far as that goes though, to be fair about it.

So because Cena has 7 years of being on top, movies, media appearances, etc... That means CM Punk shouldn't get the chance to forge his own legacy? Again, this is not the way of things historically. Hogan, Austin, Rock - they all had to step aside, and let others have their time in the spotlight. Otherwise we would not have Triple H, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels...

 

Never mind that Punk outsold Cena in merch, in fact completely sold out of his "Best in the World" shirt before it was even released. Never mind that Punk has been doing a ton of media appearances over the past year and doing a lot of Make-a-Wish stuff too. Because Cena's #1, apparently there can never be another #1, ever, even in the present-term forgetting "of all time".

 

Cena will sell the merchandise no matter where he is on the card.

Perfect. Let's put him elsewhere on the card, and let the Champions get their due.

 

I heartily disagree that Kane, Lauranitis and Big Show were worthy of going on last. Is an Elimination Chamber match not big enough? Is the AJ angle not dramatic enough? Are Daniel Bryan and Chris Jericho not good enough wrestlers?