bigtplaystew Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Um, Cena-Michaels from a few years ago was very well received. Then again, it did happen in the UK (which is a much more sophisticated fanbase than stateside). Yes, I'm aware there are one or two matches per year that are long and are praised by fans, but in no way is Ryback going to NEED to be wrestling hour long epics. It's simply not done in today's WWE main event scene by and large, outside of a few rare examples of course. If anything, you kinda made my point for me having to reach back three years to find the one exception to my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Don't worry in about 3 months Ryback will be an afterthought as Cena tramples through him as the latest up and coming heel to feel his wrath. John Cena: "You attacked me from behind, you have no balls" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickymex Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Don't worry in about 3 months Ryback will be an afterthought as Cena tramples through him as the latest up and coming heel to feel his wrath. John Cena: "You attacked me from behind, you have no balls" This has been one of my biggest pet peeves about the WWE and the Cena character. Sorry for linking to a TVTropes page but this explains it very well http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makhai Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 This has been one of my biggest pet peeves about the WWE and the Cena character. Sorry for linking to a TVTropes page but this explains it very well http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality To be fair, this has been the model of just about every Sports Entertainment company ever. The definition of a "Karma Houdini" is literally the definition of a "turn." For example: Hulk Hogan's offense consisted of 2 varients of eye manipulation.( a poke, a rake) And his actions at Wrestlemania VI go beyond words. Nobody ever called him, in kayfabe, on any of it. He was as pure as the driven snow. Not an attention whore, who isn't out for anybody but himself as was laid bare for any legit storytelling to turn him against the viewer. Instead Tugboat comes on screen asking you to send postcards for him to read on air about how sad you are for Hulk, and how much you miss him. He'll send them to his buddy, and MAYBE JUST MAYBE, HULK WILL COME BACK! Protagonist-Centered Morality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 To be fair, this has been the model of just about every Sports Entertainment company ever. The definition of a "Karma Houdini" is literally the definition of a "turn." For example: Hulk Hogan's offense consisted of 2 varients of eye manipulation.( a poke, a rake) And his actions at Wrestlemania VI go beyond words. Nobody ever called him, in kayfabe, on any of it. He was as pure as the driven snow. Not an attention whore, who isn't out for anybody but himself as was laid bare for any legit storytelling to turn him against the viewer. Instead Tugboat comes on screen asking you to send postcards for him to read on air about how sad you are for Hulk, and how much you miss him. He'll send them to his buddy, and MAYBE JUST MAYBE, HULK WILL COME BACK! Protagonist-Centered Morality. Yeah that always bothered me when I went back and watched all old Hogan stuff. He fought dirty...all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickymex Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 There was an interesting article somewhere where it describes the Iron Sheik vs Hulk Hogan match without using names. One person cheats the entire match and at the end it is revealed that the Good Guy Hogan was the one that cheated the entire match with chokes and eye rakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milamber Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The Fandango segment on Raw was painful. After hyping his appearance, then playing a long hype video to show how much of a thing "Fandangoing" is (essentially telling the crowd what to do), Fandango made his entrance to... Deafening Silence. He came out, spoke to King (*silence*), gave a lesson on pronouncing his name (*crickets*), encouraged the crowd to Fandango - a small group participated, the rest didn't care, then he went away again. Pointless. Fandango is not over. His music got over with last week's insane crowd, but I'm pretty sure they were being ironic. Fandango himself is not over. I doubt that's going to change if they're going to continue trying to push the Fandangoing thing. You'd probably get it over more, given he's a heel, if you had him hate it and order the crowd not to sing his music. If they force it, it's not going to catch on and we're going to be forced to sit through more terrible segments like that one. Totally agree. Instead of using last week's positive reception to Fandango and twisting it into a segment to draw more heat (something they probably would have attempted if it were someone more important like Punk) they shoved their social media crap down our throats to make the company look good. Using Lawler made it even more embarrassing. Props to Curtis for his commitment to the character. If I didn't like him from his first season on NXT I probably wouldn't give a crap about Fandango. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 To be fair, this has been the model of just about every Sports Entertainment company ever. The definition of a "Karma Houdini" is literally the definition of a "turn." For example: Hulk Hogan's offense consisted of 2 varients of eye manipulation.( a poke, a rake) And his actions at Wrestlemania VI go beyond words. Nobody ever called him, in kayfabe, on any of it. He was as pure as the driven snow. Not an attention whore, who isn't out for anybody but himself as was laid bare for any legit storytelling to turn him against the viewer. Instead Tugboat comes on screen asking you to send postcards for him to read on air about how sad you are for Hulk, and how much you miss him. He'll send them to his buddy, and MAYBE JUST MAYBE, HULK WILL COME BACK! Protagonist-Centered Morality. Don't forget that a couple years later, after tossing other babyfaces out to win the Royal Rumble in previous years, Hulk's reaction to Sid tossing him out of the rumble is to get Sid eliminated himself (which the crowd rightly booed, although in replays they edited that out), then Sid turns heel because... I don't know, he's mad Hogan cost him the world title by being a poor sport? There was an interesting article somewhere where it describes the Iron Sheik vs Hulk Hogan match without using names. One person cheats the entire match and at the end it is revealed that the Good Guy Hogan was the one that cheated the entire match with chokes and eye rakes. I think you're talking about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moe Hunter Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 WHO CARES HOW LONG RYBACK CAN WRESTLE FOR??!?! IT's such a dumb argument. In today's WWE stamina means nothing. They don't wrestle hour-long masterpieces anymore. Why? No one wants to see it that's why. The guy's over whether he wrestles for 20 minutes or wrestles for 5. He's over. IS he going to headline Wrestlemania soemday? Probably not. IS he going to make WWE some money for a couple years? Already has and will probably do so for some time. I don't know why you're bringing up hour-long matches, except in an attempt to obscure the argument. No one said Ryback should be in an hour-long match. We do have a right to 20 minute main event matches however, and there's no evidence thus far to suggest that Ryback can perform at that level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Stop acting like Ryback is the first or last guy with no stamina to main event a PPV. They're not going to be putting the company on his shoulders any time soon. So my only point is and ever was about Ryback's stamina : Who cares??? It shouldn't be a question of if he can wrestle for 20 minutes. If Andre could do it, I assure you Ryback can do it. The question is: What kind of pace could that match have? And to those all worried about "There must be so many minutes in a match to properly tell a story!" then i also would like to calmly and rationally ask you if you think a slow paced match couldn't possibly tell a story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Are we really even having a conversation about WWE main eventers needing stamina when The Rock headlined this past PPV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Black Phenom Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 ^That and besides, they had the same issue with Batista, who they let hold the World title multiple times, including his first one being a nine-month title reign which only ended because of him wrestling through injury and got his body real banged up at the end of it. But since the beginning the guy's been blowing chunks five minutes into the match - if they went through all that with Batista, it really shouldn't be an issue with Ryback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 and Ryback's better in the ring than Batista ever was. Plus, this is the same company who put a world title on Great Khali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 It's just an archaic thing to argue about at this point. Wrestler's stamina literally means nothing in today's wrestling world. Especially WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makhai Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Are we really even having a conversation about WWE main eventers needing stamina when The Rock headlined this past PPV? Who went for 25 against Cena after having worked once in a year prior. Ryback can't go 1/5th that long. I thought the match sucked to, but it was booked slow on purpose. Supposed to be a Hulk-Rock call back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makhai Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 and Ryback's better in the ring than Batista ever was. Plus, this is the same company who put a world title on Great Khali I loathe Batista, but you flatter Ryback. And Khali's run went so well. Let's rerun No Mercy 07.... A great time in wrestling history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Who went for 25 against Cena after having worked once in a year prior. Ryback can't go 1/5th that long. I thought the match sucked to, but it was booked slow on purpose. Supposed to be a Hulk-Rock call back. He went for 25 minutes with AT LEAST 15 minutes being between finisher reversals and submission rest holds. Seriously man, stamina does not matter in any way and being a gimmicked PPV they will have stipulations to help anyways so it hardly matters. For a guy with crap stamina he certainly has been a big part in some pretty enjoyable matches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtplaystew Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Who went for 25 against Cena after having worked once in a year prior. Ryback can't go 1/5th that long. I thought the match sucked to, but it was booked slow on purpose. Supposed to be a Hulk-Rock call back. BTW 1/5 of 25 minutes would be.... 5 minutes. And Rybacks exceed 5 minutes in the ring on multiple occasions... just saying... Regardless of pacing, you think Ryback can in no way be in a wrestling ring for 25 minutes? You think the guys never had one 25 minute long workout in his life? For real?? So you think Andre the Giant could be in a match that long.... but not Ryback? Seriously? Like I said, I'm not 100% confident the guy could keep a breakneck pace for that long, but I assure you they could throw together a 25 minute long match that Ryback could perform that would tell a story. Has he done it yet? No. But is it impossible? Of course not. Makhai REALLY hates Ryback lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Makhai REALLY hates Ryback lol. I think he hates everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSelfDestruct Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I don't see Ryberg ever winning the title after they killed his momentum afgter beating a million jobbers and then losing (not to mention himself nearly dropping Tensai..) If he does, they need a serious overhaul on his ring work or that title will be in the garbage a lot like the WHW title, and don't get me wrong, I love Ziggler, but that title has always been second-tier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remianen Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 If he does, they need a serious overhaul on his ring work or that title will be in the garbage a lot like the WHW title, and don't get me wrong, I love Ziggler, but that title has always been second-tier No, it wasn't. When it was introduced, the top worker (specifically the top heel) carried it and since it was featured on what was considered the A show, a case can be made for it being more highly regarded than the Smackdown (WWE) title. It's been second tier for the last few years perhaps, but that isn't 'always'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSelfDestruct Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 No, it wasn't. When it was introduced, the top worker (specifically the top heel) carried it and since it was featured on what was considered the A show, a case can be made for it being more highly regarded than the Smackdown (WWE) title. It's been second tier for the last few years perhaps, but that isn't 'always'. well yeah, thats what I meant. When Trips was awarded it back in the day, it quickly beat out the WWE title. but it seems the Smackdown title is never as serious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 The last time I remember the SD title being equal or above the Raw title was in 09 when CM Punk and Jeff hardy had their amazing feud where they main evented over a Cena/Orton feud during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 The last time I remember the SD title being equal or above the Raw title was in 09 when CM Punk and Jeff hardy had their amazing feud where they main evented over a Cena/Orton feud during the summer. They had to-they wanted to make Orton/Cena the Rock/Austin of this era, but they utterly failed considering Orton and Cena have no in-ring chemistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 They had to-they wanted to make Orton/Cena the Rock/Austin of this era, but they utterly failed considering Orton and Cena have no in-ring chemistry. I think it had a lot more to do with a new, big feud taking precedence over Orton/Cena take 30 or whatever that was. But since the brand split quietly ended what, a year ago, for all intents and purposes, the Smackdown title is basically holding the position of the IC title pre-brand split. Which, in turn, means they don't even put the IC and US titles on PPVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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