The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ChrisKid]

Superstar of the year

Holy **** moment of the year:

Despicible Me Moment of the year:

[dvdWarrior]

WCW has been dead for almost ten years now and Vince still has to get his cheap shots in at their expense. I guess you cannot expect anything less from a man who made a music video called Stand Back which was his warning to the other promoters.

 

I'm just glad I apparently wasn't the only one who felt that way when they seemed to go out of their way to mention that David Arquette was a former WCW champion.

[Hyde Hill]

I agree with this. There are certain heels that I don't really care for it when they are booked as weak or always needing to run away or get help to retain a title (I didn't really care for Sheamus in that role for instance) bt a lot of the time it works.

 

I mean..I don't think I EVER saw Honky Tonk Man beat someone clean unless it was on a Saturday morning against a total jobber.

 

And I am always shocked people forget how much time Ric Flair spent as 'the Dirtiest Player in the Game'...Barry Windham, Sting, Lex Luger, Dusty Rhodes all essentially made their names by almost beating Flair for a belt.

 

JCP did the same thing for years and got tons of success out of it: Face chases Flair, Flair cheats for months, Flair FINALLY loses belt, fans go wild, face, gets over, Flair wins belt back, rinse & repeat...

 

There is a difference here though. Flair did beat the midcarders and undercard workers and was not taken to the limit by them. He would then be taken to the limit by the Sting's etc and that would be an accomplishment.

 

Miz being taken to the limit in his first defence and needing two interferences is akin to Flair being taken to the limit by a WCW version of Barry Horrowitz/ Brooklyn Brawler in his first defence.

[PeterHilton]

There is a difference here though. Flair did beat the midcarders and undercard workers and was not taken to the limit by them. He would then be taken to the limit by the Sting's etc and that would be an accomplishment.

 

Miz being taken to the limit in his first defence and needing two interferences is akin to Flair being taken to the limit by a WCW version of Barry Horrowitz/ Brooklyn Brawler in his first defence.

 

I disagree. Because TV was different back then. They would actually allow Flair on TV against a true jobber which would never happen today.

 

Someone like the Brooklyn Brawler would come out in a comedy bit, but the final segment on a live edition of Raw? It would never happen. Miz beating a guy like Lawler (who's not a draw and would never headline a PPV) serves the same purpose (showing us what 'a cheater' The Miz is) without wasting a match against a headliner like Orton or Cena. It gets the character over and -hopefully - creates heat for The Miz because people are going t think the same thing you did: man what a cheap win I can't wait to see him get what he deserves.

 

You're picking nits.

[crownsy]

So why was Cena rehired?

 

It was stupid.

 

Barret Rehired him so he could take out Otunga in a match.

 

The only way that gets salvaged is if David "im pitiful as a professional wrestler" otunga is gone to FCW or from the company.

[crownsy]

There is a difference here though. Flair did beat the midcarders and undercard workers and was not taken to the limit by them. He would then be taken to the limit by the Sting's etc and that would be an accomplishment.

 

Miz being taken to the limit in his first defence and needing two interferences is akin to Flair being taken to the limit by a WCW version of Barry Horrowitz/ Brooklyn Brawler in his first defence.

 

Se i completely disagree there. They have always played lawler up as some sort of ex super wrestler (Despite reality on that) and as the stand in for the old school, they weren't going to job him to Miz and that was actually an ok match.

[juggaloninjalee]

Se i completely disagree there. They have always played lawler up as some sort of ex super wrestler (Despite reality on that) and as the stand in for the old school, they weren't going to job him to Miz and that was actually an ok match.

 

Lawler was a great wrestler in his time. He isn't Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, or Andre the Giant but he really was great.

[Kovic]

It was stupid.

 

Barret Rehired him so he could take out Otunga in a match.

 

The only way that gets salvaged is if David "im pitiful as a professional wrestler" otunga is gone to FCW or from the company.

 

I don't think that Barrett would have demanded a match versus Cena at TLC if he would not have something in mind. If it is that way, then... well.. I'm really disappointed. But saying it was stupid is really stupid... of course Barrett don't want to say why he did rehire Cena, that would ruin his plans. I think that Otunga thing was just ending of that Otunga side storyline they've been building for couple of months (at least the short bacgstage segment with Otunga and Barrett would indicate that).

[PeterHilton]

Lawler was a great wrestler in his time. He isn't Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, or Andre the Giant but he really was great.

 

I'm going to go ahead and re-post what i said after this happened originally.

 

Lawler was a junk wrestler. He booked his own territory and -SURPRISE - stuck himself at the top for year and years and YEARS past the time anyone cared and basically killed off his own territory. And then he stuck his son at the top of the card, even when it was obvious he wasn't over with the fans.

 

He insulted the 'new generation of stars' repeatedly and specifically ECW despite the fact Memphis was generally garbage wrestling and crappy joke gimmicks (seriously, wrestlecrap.com is absolutely loaded with entries from Memphis). He called out guys like Taz for being too small when Lawler himself was *maybe* 5'8" -5'9"

 

If you take out the Andy Kaufman stuff, Jerry Lawler didn't do one significant thing in his entire wrestling career outside of the territory he ran. The only reason he's famous now is for acting like a perverted 16 year old and for having the good sense to kiss Vince's a** for a job when Verne Gagne and Jerry Jarrett refused.

 

Take him out of Memphis and he's the most overrated "star" of the modern wrestling era.

 

If you're a 'work rate' guy, Lawler was a garbage wrestler whose matches were slightly more interesting than the 'punch-kick' matches of the 80s WWF.

 

If you're an SE guy, Lawler was above average on the mic, but he booked himself in the same feud for a decade.

 

Take away his run on Raw as JR's comic relief, and fans today would have no idea who he is.

[juggaloninjalee]

I'm going to go ahead and re-post what i said after this happened originally.

 

 

 

If you're a 'work rate' guy, Lawler was a garbage wrestler whose matches were slightly more interesting than the 'punch-kick' matches of the 80s WWF.

 

If you're an SE guy, Lawler was above average on the mic, but he booked himself in the same feud for a decade.

 

Take away his run on Raw as JR's comic relief, and fans today would have no idea who he is.

 

Can't say I have seen a lot of his work because I haven't. I have read about him online (obviously not the most credible sources 100% of the time). Hasn't he had something like 150 title reigns of some sort in his career? That is a lot. Not all were for his promotion either.

[PeterHilton]

Can't say I have seen a lot of his work because I haven't. I have read about him online (obviously not the most credible sources 100% of the time). Hasn't he had something like 150 title reigns of some sort in his career? That is a lot. Not all were for his promotion either.

 

LOL. Then why did you talk about how 'he really was great.'

 

He was the head of a promotion. Of course he had a lot of title reigns. Lawler is an example of the WWE propaganda machine working in reverse of the way they operate with guys like Bruno.

 

He was a fairly bad wrestler, a fairly ordinary promoter, and a questionable person (based on the amount of times he was accused of things like hitting women and statutory rape) who got famous because of a publicity stunt with Andy Kaufman. And he was a complete jerk to younger workers.

 

Verne Gagne was ten times the wrestler and businessman Lawler was but Verne had too much pride to go work for Vince (and waaaaay too much pride to sit on screen and yell 'PUPPIES!'

 

I know this is overkill,but it makes me nuts that of all the stars of the territory era to leave their mark, it's this yahoo.

 

Nobody remembers Kevin Sullivan or Eddie Gilbert, but bring up Lawler and the WWE has convinced fans he was some genius.

[Self]

Making people believe you're a big deal, despite being a fake. Some would say that makes Jerry Lawler one hell of a worker.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm going to have to say I agree with PH more then anything. I mean, Memphis was probably the worse thing I ever watched on TV, and King as champion was only one of the really good reason's not to like it.

 

The WWE has done a great job making him out to be better then he was, as well as turning him into the star he is today. I know I wasn't impressed with him back then... I DO like him now. I do like that he got a pretty decent match with Miz, and I like old guys in general....

 

However, this all doesn't really surprise me (his fame). After all, to me Vince/WWF was almost as bad as Memphis was to me. IF not for the wrestler's he hired and Wrestlemania in general, I wouldn't have ever been a fan. I followed Wrestler's back then, and when my favorites ended up on WWF, it made me watch WWF.

 

I was never inspired to watch Memphis though... although I watched wrestling in general, so I did watch it. It was one of those "there is no other wrestling show on at the moment" type things though.

[Hashasheen]

Nobody remembers Kevin Sullivan or Eddie Gilbert, but bring up Lawler and the WWE has convinced fans he was some genius.

 

I'm not sure about Hotstuff, but Sullivan gets a bad rep for the Dungeon of Doom versus Hogan, his issues with Benoit and the Radicalz leaving WCW.

[PeterHilton]

Making people believe you're a big deal, despite being a fake. Some would say that makes Jerry Lawler one hell of a worker.

 

That's not a bad point. He's like Jeff Jarrett in that sense. The fact he killed off his own territory is what bugged me most about Lawler though.

 

I'm not sure about Hotstuff, but Sullivan gets a bad rep for the Dungeon of Doom versus Hogan, his issues with Benoit and the Radicalz leaving WCW.

 

Totally true. But Sullivan's 'cult leader' deal and the 'hardcore' feuds Gilbert created were really innovative imo. Sullivan - along with guys like Billy Graham and Adrian Street - were ahead of their time in taking wrestling from being a carny thing to being live-action drama.

[Fantabulous]

I'm looking at the TLC card and I'm wondering how they intend to give the crowd time to calm down between the crazy spots in the three-way ladder matches, the chair shots in the chair matches, the diva's going through tables spots and still have the crowd with something left to give for the two main title matches. At least with the MitB PPV they only had two MitB matches and one cage match. This one is virtually all gimmick bouts with the main event being a combination of half of the six gimmick matches before it.

[juggaloninjalee]

Every wrestler from the territory days was hard on young wrestlers. They all held them down. Every promotor pushed their family members down our throats too. Those aren't good arguments as to why not to think a guy was a good wrestler or whatever when it comes to the territory days.

 

From the books I have read Memphis sounded like it was a hotbed of good wrestling. I don't know a lot about how many promotions were run there or anything.

 

Lawler has always been entertaining when I have seen him. 90s his feud with Bret Hart was good and I thought he wrestled a few times during that.

[Hyde Hill]

Making people believe you're a big deal, despite being a fake. Some would say that makes Jerry Lawler one hell of a worker.

 

More the constant pounding of the WWE machine then Lawler's work in this case though imho.

[BHK1978]

I mean, Memphis was probably the worse thing I ever watched on TV, and King as champion was only one of the really good reason's not to like it.

 

Yeah Memphis was some of the worst crap I ever saw wrestling wise. I mean they always tried to push the likes of Eric Embry and Bill Dundee. Nothing against those two and I know Memphis could not afford to keep their superstars around for any length of time. However, one tended to grow tired of Eric Embry vs. Jerry Lawler for the 200th week in a row.

[The Two]

I'm looking at the TLC card and I'm wondering how they intend to give the crowd time to calm down between the crazy spots in the three-way ladder matches, the chair shots in the chair matches, the diva's going through tables spots and still have the crowd with something left to give for the two main title matches. At least with the MitB PPV they only had two MitB matches and one cage match. This one is virtually all gimmick bouts with the main event being a combination of half of the six gimmick matches before it.

I'm still wondering what the hell a "Chair Match" is.

[PeterHilton]

Every wrestler from the territory days was hard on young wrestlers. They all held them down. Every promotor pushed their family members down our throats too. Those aren't good arguments as to why not to think a guy was a good wrestler or whatever when it comes to the territory days.

 

you're taking one comment and acting as if that's my whole argument.

 

He was bad in the ring. BAD. If you want to talk about why he's not a 'good wrestler' you can start right there.

 

He ran the same feud so often that he never created any new fans and the traditional fans stopped coming to his show. He never created any new stars (unless they were related to him) while somehow driving his established stars away. And yes, other people did the same thing and those people - Gagne and the Von Erichs for instance - are generally laughed at now and seen as examples of 'promoters who failed because they couldn't keep up with the

times.'

 

From the books I have read Memphis sounded like it was a hotbed of good wrestling. I don't know a lot about how many promotions were run there or anything.

 

OK..but it's not like this is just MY opinion..

 

I'm going to have to say I agree with PH more then anything. I mean, Memphis was probably the worse thing I ever watched on TV, and King as champion was only one of the really good reason's not to like it.

 

I was never inspired to watch Memphis though... although I watched wrestling in general, so I did watch it. It was one of those "there is no other wrestling show on at the moment" type things though.

 

Yeah Memphis was some of the worst crap I ever saw wrestling wise. I mean they always tried to push the likes of Eric Embry and Bill Dundee. Nothing against those two and I know Memphis could not afford to keep their superstars around for any length of time. However, one tended to grow tired of Eric Embry vs. Jerry Lawler for the 200th week in a row.

 

Again...the guys who did the wrestlecrap site devoted an entire chapter in their book to Memphis. The promotion Lawler ran was awful.

 

Lawler has always been entertaining when I have seen him. 90s his feud with Bret Hart was good and I thought he wrestled a few times during that.

 

 

So you're not that informed, never really saw the company we're talking about, have limited knowledge of what Lawler was like in his prime, and your only point of comparison is a short feud he had where he worked matches against one of the best in-ring workers ever?

 

But you're insisting he's 'great' based on ....?

[dvdWarrior]

I've always believed Lawler was at least good in the ring... but most of that came from his feud with Bret Hart in WWF. Most of my opinion on him quite frankly comes from things I've heard, rather than things I've seen, most notably the whole Andy Kaufman thing.

 

I missed out on most of the Memphis stuff during the 80s, and only saw a little of the USWA whenever it came to pass, but surprisingly I can't seem to remember anything about it.

 

Lawler doesn't seem to pop up all that often on WWE Classics On Demand either.

 

So maybe his legend is mostly hype.

 

Just my insignificant contribution to the conversation.

[PeterHilton]

Again...it's mainly that I think it's unfair that he gets brought up as a 'legend' of the territory era when there were so many more talented and more deserving workers.

 

...if Col DeBeers had ended up calling Raw for the last decade would we be talking about how he's a legend too?

[Hyde Hill]

Again...it's mainly that I think it's unfair that he gets brought up as a 'legend' of the territory era when there were so many more talented and more deserving workers.

 

...if Col DeBeers had ended up calling Raw for the last decade would we be talking about how he's a legend too?

 

Yep we would or at least the E would have done its best to convince us to do so.

[PeterHilton]

Probably right. WHich is sad. Which is why i get on here and harass poor JNL when he posts how great Lawler is...the fans who remember first hand have an obligation to tell younger fans the truth and not 'the truth as the WWE tells it.'