The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ZMAN]

Also, you see that list of World Champion's who weren't treated as top stars - what's the link? Easy - they're all talented wrestlers. And that's why they aren't "treated" as top stars. They don't have to dominate like Cena or Orton to remain relevant, because their skills do that. If Cena or Orton lost as much as Punk has this year they'd slip down into the midcard pretty quickly, but Punk's avoided that, because his talent has kept him up. And like it or not, Orton and Cena sell more PPV's than Punk (although Punk's doing his bet to disprove that), so you need them established in the Main Event. And you do that by putting them over people like Beniot, Guerrero, Jericho and Punk. It's a mark of respect to those wrestlers that WWE know they can have them lose often and remain relevant (or have the ability to re-establish themselves really quickly), whereas they can't afford to do that to Cena and Orton. They are extremely valuable, but in a Sports Entertainment company Cena and Orton are also valuable, and their value needs more work to keep up.

 

Totally agree, and that's why I threw CM Punk into the category, because he is linked to them. And that's why I can't see Punk coming back, because he just seems like the type of person who doesn't want to be just a reliable midcard guy. I think Raven had the same issues way back when they only let him run around on Heat and throw trash cans at people on Raw. I guess it could be a Jericho-like hiatus and we see him back in a couple of months, but I don't remember Jericho's departure being that vocal.

 

But yeah, I get the whole put the ****ty guy over the talented guy thing(well, for the past 1-8 years anyway). Punk, Danielson, Lowki, and all those guys should know what they are getting into when they sign the contract, though.

 

Yeah, Orton and Cena sell more PPVs but i'm pretty sure anyone above 6' could have done the same thing if given the opportunity. Why Vince doesn't hire someone who can play the role and wrestle better is beyond me. There really is nothing that special about these two and that's why people want to give them **** all of the time.

 

I'm cool with it all though, I don't think there's anything Vince and his Paul-in-law can do that would make me turn the TV off. Have Jackson squash Bryan in a 3 minute submission match and i'll probably still watch it. I'm just a sucka like everyone else.

[Gabbo]

Been watching a few shoots recently. Enjoyed the Russo one, seems a nice guy. Like to hang out with him. Hard to get past the fact he just loves the business, seems a cool guy with it. I know people will want to contend the 'loving the business' comment but eh, watch the shoot.

 

Watched a few others including a Billy Gunn one. That was alright, he didn'ty seem to talk much. Maybe he can't remember, maybe he didn't wanna say too much for some reason, secrets and whatnot I dunno. Came across a decent guy too. Never liked him though. Inside or outside the ring.

[Stennick]

Totally agree, and that's why I threw CM Punk into the category, because he is linked to them. And that's why I can't see Punk coming back, because he just seems like the type of person who doesn't want to be just a reliable midcard guy. I think Raven had the same issues way back when they only let him run around on Heat and throw trash cans at people on Raw. I guess it could be a Jericho-like hiatus and we see him back in a couple of months, but I don't remember Jericho's departure being that vocal.

 

But yeah, I get the whole put the ****ty guy over the talented guy thing(well, for the past 1-8 years anyway). Punk, Danielson, Lowki, and all those guys should know what they are getting into when they sign the contract, though.

 

Yeah, Orton and Cena sell more PPVs but i'm pretty sure anyone above 6' could have done the same thing if given the opportunity. Why Vince doesn't hire someone who can play the role and wrestle better is beyond me. There really is nothing that special about these two and that's why people want to give them **** all of the time.

 

I'm cool with it all though, I don't think there's anything Vince and his Paul-in-law can do that would make me turn the TV off. Have Jackson squash Bryan in a 3 minute submission match and i'll probably still watch it. I'm just a sucka like everyone else.

 

You honestly truly can't believe that John Cena and Randy Orton are no better at what they do than anyone else right? John Cena has been the biggest merchandise mover for the last seven years. If he wasn't that good and there was nothing special about him people wouldn't care about him. How many people have they tried to push into the main event that have never gotten the reaction or made them money like Cena?

 

I'm not going to go into this in depth because honestly its just a silly idea that Cena isn't that good at what he does. Cena is the best in the world at doing what he does. Orton's crowd reactions are what turned him face in the first place. I might not like the guy and might not understand his appeal but its very apparent that the casual WWE fan loves this guy a ton.

 

If you want Danielson and Low Ki to go over Orton and Cena then watch ROH because thats not what you're going to get in the WWE and honestly its not what I want. And although its not like Punk is on the level of Cena and Orton in the eyes of the company the guy is a triple crown champion, three time world champion and a two time MITB winner the only two time winner and the only guy to do it back to back. So yeah Punk has had a toooooon of success there way more than other guys coming from similar backgrounds.

[Teh_Showtime]

Fun Fact: CM Punk has not been World Champion since he dropped the title at HIAC 2009 to Undertaker, after an infamous incident where Taker told him he needed to dress more appropriately since he was a World Champ, and representing WWE.

 

After that, CM Punk formed the SES which would be epically buried by Big Show.

 

another fun fact: Big Show buried Jack Swagger and put him back in the midcard.

 

2 fun facts that are unrelated, but at least it seems ADR has survived Big Show.

[masterded]

You honestly truly can't believe that John Cena and Randy Orton are no better at what they do than anyone else right? John Cena has been the biggest merchandise mover for the last seven years. If he wasn't that good and there was nothing special about him people wouldn't care about him. How many people have they tried to push into the main event that have never gotten the reaction or made them money like Cena?

 

I'm not going to go into this in depth because honestly its just a silly idea that Cena isn't that good at what he does. Cena is the best in the world at doing what he does. Orton's crowd reactions are what turned him face in the first place. I might not like the guy and might not understand his appeal but its very apparent that the casual WWE fan loves this guy a ton.

 

If you want Danielson and Low Ki to go over Orton and Cena then watch ROH because thats not what you're going to get in the WWE and honestly its not what I want. And although its not like Punk is on the level of Cena and Orton in the eyes of the company the guy is a triple crown champion, three time world champion and a two time MITB winner the only two time winner and the only guy to do it back to back. So yeah Punk has had a toooooon of success there way more than other guys coming from similar backgrounds.

 

I am not a Cena fan, but I don't think it is fair to put Cena and Orton together. Cena is someone who caught on with the fans and that is what lead to him being where he is. Though once he got there they changed his character quite a bit, which is something I understand to some extent (though not as far as they went). In the end what matter is the fans pushed Cena to the main event. Orton on the other hand has been pushed constantly to be a maineventer staring in like 2002. I really do think a lot of people given the same consent pushes that Orton has gotten over the last 9 years would have been just as big as Orton is now, except it would of happened a lot earlier.

[Teh_Showtime]

Orton does have talent, though and has for a long time. It was a whole SEVEN years ago when he had an epic match with Taker at WM21. At that point it was the best match Taker had at WM since 4 years ago with HHH at WM17. Orton got over fast when he was in Evolution and subsequently after he turned face. But I would disagree that anyone who would be pushed like that would be where he is now. Orton's face run as champ was a MAJOR flop. Most people would have been shot back down to the midcard. Remember guys like Matt Morgan, or Carlito, or Chris Masters who were pushed pretty hard, but they eventually fell back down.

[masterded]

Orton does have talent, though and has for a long time. It was a whole SEVEN years ago when he had an epic match with Taker at WM21. At that point it was the best match Taker had at WM since 4 years ago with HHH at WM17. Orton got over fast when he was in Evolution and subsequently after he turned face. But I would disagree that anyone who would be pushed like that would be where he is now. Orton's face run as champ was a MAJOR flop. Most people would have been shot back down to the midcard. Remember guys like Matt Morgan, or Carlito, or Chris Masters who were pushed pretty hard, but they eventually fell back down.

 

That is my point. No one else seemed to get as many chances to get where Orton is now. Also I never said he wasn't talented.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think we are stating the same thing, but you attribute it to Orton getting too many chances, while I think it is due to the other guys who were in his position not being able to get over in that way again. Orton was more over at WM21 than he was at SummerSlam when he won the WHC, though.

 

Orton got passed over after he lost the WHC though. He still had to work a few levels below the main event (but still well above the midcard) it was still a dropdown. I don't remember exactly what he went into after that, but he did rebound rather quickly since he had a high profile match at WM while HHH and Batista had a World Title match.

[shawn michaels]

I'm not gonna quote, or i'd have a lot of responses to do. Cena and Orton are not on the same ship. Orton is actually talented, while Cena is a product of people's stupidity. Yes, the majority of pop culture is built upon ignorance. Regardless of it, Cena and Orton are not irreplaceable! No one is! They don't need to keep guys like CM Punk down the drain just because they need worker A or B to stay on top. It's ridiculous to assume that. Vince doesn't need that, the E doesn't need that! It happens because Vince wants to! He could EASILY find more talented guys to replace Cena! Those guys would be better or at least at the same level than Cena. I can agree that not everyone would be successful on getting at that level, but a lot of people would pull it off. And i mean a lot, not just one or two! So please don't you guys tell me that CENA has to be there, or Orton has to be there, or even Punk has to be there! No one has to necessarily be there because no one is untouchable. The wwe existed before Cena and will keep existing after him.

 

As for Cena beeing good...he's not! The only thing he's good at (besides some decent mic skills, i'll give him that much.) is not screwing up pushes. He got over because people were crazy about rappers and rap culture back on the day he got his push. He got over because Vince likes to push big untalented guys. After that kind of push, the only thing he really had to do was not screwing it up a la Kofi Kingston (for example) and it's easy for him to keep selling. How wouldn't he sell??? He keeps beeing shuved down the kids and the marks throats! If i was a kid or a pure mark, i'd love the guy. Occasional fans, or regular mark fans will eat nearly everything thrown at them. So...no...Cena is not a merchandise phenom. He's a not a phenom...period.

As for CM Punk....what would you guys consider a proper treatment to him?? 13 world championships?? Please, i like him, and i'd love to see him have half of the pushes Cena had in the last half a dozen years, but he hasn't been treated unfairly! He's a 3 time WHC, a two time money in the bank winner and all the other things that someone pointed out a few posts ago...and he's acheived more than i expected he would when he started beeing jobbed to holly. I never even thought he'd make it to WHC. So...i'd love to see him achieving more...but he hasn't been treated as a bastard, as some seem to think.

 

Ps: When i say i like Punk, i mean he's my favourite WWE wrestler now that HBK is retired and his successor (Edge) followed the same way.

 

Edit: I'm not saying that Cena lovers are stupid, nor am i trying to insult anyone. I was just criticizing the cheap pop culture itself.

[brashleyholland]

So...no...Cena is not a merchandise phenom.

 

Well a quick Google tells me that Cena's holds third place in single year gross merchandising sales in WWF/WWE history behind Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin....so unless you have numbers that prove otherwise, I'd say that he is.

[Teh_Showtime]

while Cena is a product of people's stupidity.... He could EASILY find more talented guys to replace Cena! Those guys would be better or at least at the same level than Cena. I can agree that not everyone would be successful on getting at that level, but a lot of people would pull it off. And i mean a lot, not just one or two!

 

As for Cena beeing good...he's not! The only thing he's good at (besides some decent mic skills, i'll give him that much.) is not screwing up pushes. He got over because people were crazy about rappers and rap culture back on the day he got his push. He got over because Vince likes to push big untalented guys. After that kind of push, the only thing he really had to do was not screwing it up a la Kofi Kingston (for example) and it's easy for him to keep selling.

 

*Miz Voice* Really?...Really?

 

"Cena is a product of people's stupidity" - I really don't get this statement.

 

"He could EASILY find more talented guys to replace Cena! Those guys would be better or at least at the same level than Cena." - You do know that Cena probably sells more merch in a year than 98% of the WWE roster gets paid, right? This is like saying it will be easy to replace Rey Mysterio, and if you haven't noticed, Sin Cara doesn't look like he will be bigger than Rey in the WWE.

 

"a lot of people would pull it off. And i mean a lot, not just one or two!"- So why has nobody done it? Cena didn't become SuperCena until 2006. Who was in his position before then? Rock and Austin were gone by then. Who was on Cena's current level from 2004-2006? Angle? NO. Jericho? NO. Michaels? NO.

 

"As for Cena beeing good...he's not! The only thing he's good at is not screwing up pushes." -Trust me, people didn't suddenly love Cena only for his promos. He had great matches during his SD run, and has shown the ability to have more as of late. This is a fallacy with no evidence.

 

"He got over because people were crazy about rappers and rap culture back on the day he got his push. He got over because Vince likes to push big untalented guys" - Did people really love rap back in 2003/4? Id say it was the opposite. Around that time Eminem had all of that publicity with the Michael Jackson jazz, and it wasn't good publicity. Many people called Cena an Eminem wanabee. He still got over due to his matches and promos, not because he was the flavor of the week. If that was the case, why hasn't Rob Eckos blown up in TNA? (Robbie E)

[Hive]

Cena has way better mic and acting skills than Orton, and possibly a better dedication to the business (though Orton strikes me as being extremely dedicated as well). Everything else, I think Orton does better than Cena.

 

Punk is better on the mic than both Cena and Orton combined and far better in the ring. Without question. But... and this is a big "but": he lacks the "WWE look", which both Cena and Orton has. He doesn't look like he could walk into a bar and beat up everyone in it. And his "non-WWE build" is often mentioned as a key reason why he has not been pushed as much as so many others, and why he has often been wasted in stupid and irrelevant storylines and surrounded by career midcarders... and I can see the reason behind this, somewhat.

 

But still... a guy like Shawn Michaels, who became one of their biggest stars ever, proved that smaller guys with a different look and great in-ring skills can be as huge, if not even bigger, than most "big guys". What did HBK have that CM Punk lacks? The only thing I liked better about HBK was his finisher, other than that I find Punk at least as good, if not better, than him. He could be the future "Mr. Wrestlemania".

 

Anyway, I'm not quite sure what my point with this rambling was (if I ever had one)... except that I think WWE is dropping the ball BIG TIME if they really end up letting Punk leave. While I can see why WWE doesn't think having the main event filled with guys that has Punk's "puny" look, there's certainly room for one or two: and since HBK left, there's a void for that kind of guy... a void that can, in my opion, only be filled by either Punk or Morrison within the current WWE roster. And Punk would by far be the best choice.

[Hive]

If that was the case, why hasn't Rob Eckos blown up in TNA? (Robbie E)

 

Seriously, that guy should not be on tv. He has the dumbest gimmick paired with the most boring look and in-ring presentation I have seen for a very long time.

[brashleyholland]

 

He doesn't look like he could walk into a bar and beat up everyone in it.

 

But still... a guy like Shawn Michaels, who became one of their biggest stars ever, proved that smaller guys with a different look and great in-ring skills can be as huge, if not even bigger, than most "big guys".

 

 

And if memory serves, didn't HBK on a couple of occasions explicitly prove that he couldn't walk into a bar and beat everybody up? :-p

[shawn michaels]

*Miz Voice* Really?...Really?

 

"Cena is a product of people's stupidity" - I really don't get this statement.

 

"He could EASILY find more talented guys to replace Cena! Those guys would be better or at least at the same level than Cena." - You do know that Cena probably sells more merch in a year than 98% of the WWE roster gets paid, right? This is like saying it will be easy to replace Rey Mysterio, and if you haven't noticed, Sin Cara doesn't look like he will be bigger than Rey in the WWE.

 

Maybe i didn't explained myself properly: Cena does sell it, but he could easily (maybe not that easily, but easily enough) be replaced by someone that also did. Someone more talented.

 

"a lot of people would pull it off. And i mean a lot, not just one or two!"- So why has nobody done it? Cena didn't become SuperCena until 2006. Who was in his position before then? Rock and Austin were gone by then. Who was on Cena's current level from 2004-2006? Angle? NO. Jericho? NO. Michaels? NO.

 

Why has nobody done it? Because once Vince creates a money cow (even a replaceable one), he sticks to it, no matter what. He's to scared to risk losing it with a failed replace attempt.

 

"As for Cena beeing good...he's not! The only thing he's good at is not screwing up pushes." -Trust me, people didn't suddenly love Cena only for his promos. He had great matches during his SD run, and has shown the ability to have more as of late. This is a fallacy with no evidence.

 

Actually, it's not a fallacy. It is my valid opinion. His best all time matches were with the man that can put on a good match even with a broom stick. (Yes, shawn) and his other good matches happen when someone carries him. He is uncapable of carrying someone to a decent or good match. That's beeing untalented. If i get carried through as much as him, i'll also be a freaking merchanfise phenom, as long as i have a good set (Not a great one) of mic skills.

 

"He got over because people were crazy about rappers and rap culture back on the day he got his push. He got over because Vince likes to push big untalented guys" - Did people really love rap back in 2003/4? Id say it was the opposite. Around that time Eminem had all of that publicity with the Michael Jackson jazz, and it wasn't good publicity. Many people called Cena an Eminem wanabee. He still got over due to his matches and promos, not because he was the flavor of the week. If that was the case, why hasn't Rob Eckos blown up in TNA? (Robbie E)

 

Ok, maybe i'm wrong about the rap part, i'll give you that much. But he still got pushed because Vince loves to push the big untalented guys. He got over because JBL did a great heel job and even a pigeon would have gotten over facing a guy with that much heel heat. (Yes, truly. I remember some of my friends and colleagues reactions back then, so i'll be sticking to this one.) HE got over because Vince wanted him too. At the time there were a lot better guys to be pushed. Heck, there still are.

 

My answers are in bold, in case anyone is wondering. Though i guess not.

 

Ps: Dude...i might be a Cena hater, but you definitely mark for Cena. I don't mean it as an insult. Afterall, we've been working fine within the E together. lol

[Teh_Showtime]

no I dont, but that is plain wrong to call him a terrible worker.

 

He put on a good showing with Dave FREAKING Batista.

 

I dont think Batista was carrying that match in any shape, form, or fashion

[Hive]

And if memory serves, didn't HBK on a couple of occasions explicitly prove that he couldn't walk into a bar and beat everybody up? :-p

 

ZING!

[Teh_Showtime]

I would also like to point out that Cena has that rare ability to make people raise their game. Truth, Edge, Miz, and Batista all saw their work improve when they were working with Cena. He has "it"

[shawn michaels]

I would also like to point out that Cena has that rare ability to make people raise their game. Truth, Edge, Miz, and Batista all saw their work improve when they were working with Cena. He has "it"

 

Arguable, to say the least. To say that Edge raised his game with Cena... i'd rather say that Cena raised his game with Edge. Let's not even talk about Truth. Are you really going that way with someone like Ron Killings? As for the Miz, give him some time and you'll change your mind. I won't argue about Dave though...i mean... Batista needs to be carried by everyone. But why don't you talk about Cena's terrible performance vs JBL on Wrestlemania! Really...Cena sucked in that match. I think my dislike for his work was established there. I mean, it already existed, but that match helped cultivating it.

 

And yes, you do mark a little for him. YOu have to admit it. But hey, i'm pretty sure he's not the worst worker in the world, but the way he was shoved down people's throats made it impossible to like him professionally. (Can't criticize him as a person, as i don't know the man) And i know i'm not alone in it, right CM Punk?

 

Edit: I rememer HBK entering the arena and kicking the hell out of evolution, and lots of security guards. How is that not beeing able of "beating everyone in a bar?"

[Stennick]

My answers are in bold, in case anyone is wondering. Though i guess not.

 

Ps: Dude...i might be a Cena hater, but you definitely mark for Cena. I don't mean it as an insult. Afterall, we've been working fine within the E together. lol

 

 

Honestly your opinion on John Cena is completely irrelevant (no offense intended) because you've shown in the past (several times) you are unable to admit to yourself and therefore to no one else that John Cena is the best at what he does of a generation. For whatever reason you not only don't care for the guys character (I don't know how you couldn't like the guy as a person I've never heard even a hint of a bad thing about the guy). You have a blind, illogical hatred for the man and you live in a delusional world where you could plug guys into Cena's role and have them be BIGGER.

 

So let me ask you name me these guys that could be bigger than John Cena. Are they currently employed by the WWE? Are they in ROH? TNA please tell me these guys that could gain the mass appeal, popularity and huge business profits for the company that John Cena has garnered for them in the past six years.

 

Also I think you might be alone in it. Punk's problem wasn't with John personally or professionally. It was with the WWE front office and their refusal to market this guy on the same level as Orton and Cena. He was upset that it was The Rock at next years Wrestlemania he never once said John didn't deserve or wasn't good enough for the push he's deserved. So why to completely mis interpret what he was saying. I always wonder how people can hear one thing and then blindly come to a completely unrelated conclusion.

[shawn michaels]

Honestly your opinion on John Cena is completely irrelevant (no offense intended) because you've shown in the past (several times) you are unable to admit to yourself and therefore to no one else that John Cena is the best at what he does of a generation. For whatever reason you not only don't care for the guys character (I don't know how you couldn't like the guy as a person I've never heard even a hint of a bad thing about the guy). You have a blind, illogical hatred for the man and you live in a delusional world where you could plug guys into Cena's role and have them be BIGGER.

 

So let me ask you name me these guys that could be bigger than John Cena. Are they currently employed by the WWE? Are they in ROH? TNA please tell me these guys that could gain the mass appeal, popularity and huge business profits for the company that John Cena has garnered for them in the past six years.

 

I never said i dislike him personally. Also, i don't need to admit he's the best of his generation when he is not. And i bet a lot that the people agreeing with me are more than the ones that don't agree. I don't have a blind hate for him, i know he's not the worst woker alive or close to it. But excuse me for not liking everything that vince shoves down people's throats, such as him and hogan. Was Hogan the best of his generation?NOOO! I think what we should say is that Cena is portrayed as the best of his generation and that worked out. It doesn't mean he is the best. He is not the best. As for names that could do the same...i'd rather have you taking pics, cause a lot of people would go far with that kind of push.

 

Edit: My opinions are as relevant as anyone else's. I'm not offended, but you should rephrase that.

[cappyboy]

I would also like to point out that Cena has that rare ability to make people raise their game. Truth, Edge, Miz, and Batista all saw their work improve when they were working with Cena. He has "it"

 

You know this is a very useful point. How often do you hear guys mention in sports telecasts that some guy they are praising is so good because he makes those around him better? Be it a megastar or some run of the mill guy you have to know the game to appreciate. That's a very valuable skill and you don't hear about it nearly as much in wrestling circles. Sure you may hear stuff like "Eddie Guerrero could wrestle a broom and pull a three star match out of it. Even if he were forced to put the broom over." But that's more about the ability to cover the weaknesses of others than it is inspiring guys to bring their A game. The problem is this skill is essentially an intangible and so often IWC types try to break wrestling down into its tangible parts.

 

In an ideal promotion, or at least my ideal promotion, you'd have both your Cenas and your Punks and both would get to play to their strengths. It's not workrate over entertainment or vice versa. It's about balance. That's how you maximize talent.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Fun Fact: CM Punk has not been World Champion since he dropped the title at HIAC 2009 to Undertaker, after an infamous incident where Taker told him he needed to dress more appropriately since he was a World Champ, and representing WWE.

 

After that, CM Punk formed the SES which would be epically buried by Big Show.

 

another fun fact: Big Show buried Jack Swagger and put him back in the midcard.

 

2 fun facts that are unrelated, but at least it seems ADR has survived Big Show.

 

Pretty sure that dress code story was a hoax. But yeah, Punk's been on a terrible decline since his title loss.

 

I'm not gonna quote, or i'd have a lot of responses to do. Cena and Orton are not on the same ship. Orton is actually talented, while Cena is a product of people's stupidity. Yes, the majority of pop culture is built upon ignorance. Regardless of it, Cena and Orton are not irreplaceable! No one is! They don't need to keep guys like CM Punk down the drain just because they need worker A or B to stay on top. It's ridiculous to assume that. Vince doesn't need that, the E doesn't need that! It happens because Vince wants to! He could EASILY find more talented guys to replace Cena! Those guys would be better or at least at the same level than Cena. I can agree that not everyone would be successful on getting at that level, but a lot of people would pull it off. And i mean a lot, not just one or two! So please don't you guys tell me that CENA has to be there, or Orton has to be there, or even Punk has to be there! No one has to necessarily be there because no one is untouchable. The wwe existed before Cena and will keep existing after him.

 

Finding someone who could do it better than Cena is already a stretch, but flat-out replacing Cena is a no-no. You can't replace what is booming, and Cena has been booming for years like a.. well, a goldmine. They need to keep Orton and Cena on top, especially with all the veterans who peace'd out recently. "A lot of people would pull it off" sounds so naive, you act like Cena's current status is a dime a dozen which is just laughable. As much as I dislike Cena's character, there's no denying he had that something special which allowed him to transcend the main-event scene. The WWE will exist after him, big draws like that won't keep popping up like lottery tickets though.

If i was a kid or a pure mark, i'd love the guy.

 

Well there you go.

 

Occasional fans, or regular mark fans will eat nearly everything thrown at them.

 

That's what you wanna believe bro. Plenty of things the WWE have pushed with considerable hype only for said angle/superstar to fall flat on its face.

 

So...i'd love to see him achieving more...but he hasn't been treated as a bastard, as some seem to think.

 

He's just been treated questionably lately, rather than overall. It's to note nearly all of those accomplishments date to like two years ago minimum. Ever since he lost the belt to Taker, he's been dwindling around the upper-midcard scene, just being "that guy" in "that position".

[lazorbeak]

Wow there's a lot of ridiculous statements in this thread right now.

 

Yes, who could forget how 6'1", 225 pound HBK proved what a success little guys could be when he became one of the worst drawing champions in WWF history. Meanwhile, that giant, lumbering oaf John Cena, at 6'1", 240 pounds, is only pushed because Vince loves huge guys and is only one of the most successful champions ever and easily their most successful champion in the past ten years.

 

Granted, their style is very different, but I love the idea that HBK is somehow a "little guy" and Cena's a "big guy." Also, the bar comments are about HBK's real life lack of toughness, not how he was portrayed one time on a TV show.

 

The statements about Cena being dead weight or needing to be carried are pretty hilarious, considering he's had excellent matches with Batista, Umaga, Miz, and others who generally aren't considered huge workrate guys.

 

Also one opinion is not just as valid as another, especially when one opinion is backed by mounds and mounds of evidence and one is based entirely on hypotheticals and delusions.

 

Also, totally disagree with Punk being "buried" after his run with Hardy. He was given the ball as a top heel on Smackdown and had high profile feuds with Rey Mysterio and the Big Show, two top names who are both former world champions, then got hurt, and after his injury was immediately plugged into the New Nexus as a top heel, this time on Raw. MVP losing to local talents is getting buried, not Punk losing 2 out of 3 matches to Rey Mysterio.

[Teh_Showtime]

Im very indifferent to Cena, and I will admit that I only watched SD from about WM XX until just before WM23. It was because I prefer SD. I dont prefer him, nor hate but I still give credit where due.