The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[sebsy]

Because this storyline has not fully played out yet and for all we know Christian will be champion again by Summerslam.

 

Just assuming he is going to end up the same way as Punk/Barrett etc is a bit foolish. Just wait and see what happens first, and if it ends with Christian having been completely dominated like Punk etc then by all means berate the way the way it has played out.

[shawn michaels]

Because this storyline has not fully played out yet and for all we know Christian will be champion again by Summerslam.

 

Just assuming he is going to end up the same way as Punk/Barrett etc is a bit foolish. Just wait and see what happens first, and if it ends with Christian having been completely dominated like Punk etc then by all means berate the way the way it has played out.

 

No one's berating. I'm assuming. I'd certainly love to be wrong. But i'm just talking about my impressions, doesn't mean it's a done deal. I sure as hell hope not. I too have the hopes of seeing him reign by summerslam. Let's wait and see. But nothing prevents us from discussing it.

[Fantabulous]

Because this storyline has not fully played out yet and for all we know Christian will be champion again by Summerslam.

 

Just assuming he is going to end up the same way as Punk/Barrett etc is a bit foolish. Just wait and see what happens first, and if it ends with Christian having been completely dominated like Punk etc then by all means berate the way the way it has played out.

 

A champion that would mean nothing having been beaten on three or four consecutive main event-level PPV matches and treated in a comically bad fashion by the GM of his brand.

 

I love the "wait and see where it goes" line because it gets trotted out every time WWE book a feud like this. Which is a lot, which is exactly why people are complaining, because they know how it usually goes and they're not happy with that.

[shawn michaels]

A champion that would mean nothing having been beaten on three or four consecutive main event-level PPV matches and treated in a comically bad fashion by the GM of his brand.

 

I love the "wait and see where it goes" line because it gets trotted out every time WWE book a feud like this. Which is a lot, which is exactly why people are complaining, because they know how it usually goes and they're not happy with that.

 

This.

[eayragt]

I'd be massively surprised if Christian beat Randy Orton. I'm a big Christian fan (I'm an even bigger Punk fan), but in WWE as it is today Christian should not be beating Orton. I believe the aim of this feud was to try and make sure Christian doesn't slip back into the midcard after losing the title. If that happens, WWE have fulfilled there aim.

 

I think it's wrong to accuse the WWE of dropping the ball every time they build up a new challenger well and tehn don't give them the title. There's a lot of difference between being a legitimate title threat and World Heavyweight / WWE Champion. Christian is the former, he doesn't have to be the latter.

[Teh_Showtime]

How can you view him as a serious challenger if every week Orton talks about how hw will beat Christian and then he does it, cleanly over and over again. Sure the dumb refs might help, but really?

[Hive]

Really not sure how you can say they've dropped the ball on the whole Christian thing. Sure, I was pissed when he lost the title 5 days after winning it but I'm happy enough with how things have gone since then. He is still in the main event a few months later on his own merits rather than off the whole Edge retirement angle and I believe that he is getting the title again soon enough. Even if he doesn't he is in a much better position now than say 6 months ago. I like the way the whole story has developed so far and am looking forward to where it is heading.

 

Yeah I agree, Christian is in a better place now than he has been in years in WWE. Maybe even his best position there ever. When else has he been consistently main eventing and feuding with a world title holder who also happens to be one of their current top guys?

[eayragt]

How can you view him as a serious challenger if every week Orton talks about how hw will beat Christian and then he does it, cleanly over and over again. Sure the dumb refs might help, but really?

 

After he loses again he wont be. But he has been for a few months, and he could be again in the future (rather than a forever midcarder like he was before he got injured).

[sebsy]

To my recollection Christian has lost 3 title matches so far.

 

Match 1: The first defense 5 days after winning it: Was a really good match, both getting in even offense won by a RKO out of the blue.

 

Match 2: Over The Limit. Again a very good match, won again cleanly although could have gone either way.

 

Match 3: Capitol Punishment. Orton again pins Christian after an RKO but has a legitimate complaint as his foot was well under the rope.

 

Not really sure how he has been made to look a joke. He has shown he can hang in the main event and perform more than adequately. The wait and see line as you call it is more than relevant here as the story clearly has a good bit left to be told. Yes WWE get it wrong more than right, but that doesn't mean it is going to happen here. It might and it might not. If it does end simply as him being buried half a dozen times then by all means I will agree on the point but not until it's over.

 

As for him being treated in a bad fashion by the GM. Again I don't see it other than your typical 'gm makes the right and fair call but the heel sees it from a different perspective and feels he has been wrong done by him and the fans' kind of way. I'm certainly not 'trotting out' an old line for the sake of it, I would just rather wait and see what happens rather than jump on something for what people generally believe is going to happen.

[Linsolv]

To my recollection Christian has lost 3 title matches so far.

 

Match 1: The first defense 5 days after winning it: Was a really good match, both getting in even offense won by a RKO out of the blue.

 

Match 2: Over The Limit. Again a very good match, won again cleanly although could have gone either way.

 

Match 3: Capitol Punishment. Orton again pins Christian after an RKO but has a legitimate complaint as his foot was well under the rope.

 

Not really sure how he has been made to look a joke. He has shown he can hang in the main event and perform more than adequately. The wait and see line as you call it is more than relevant here as the story clearly has a good bit left to be told. Yes WWE get it wrong more than right, but that doesn't mean it is going to happen here. It might and it might not. If it does end simply as him being buried half a dozen times then by all means I will agree on the point but not until it's over.

 

Because in the WWE, it's not like in MMA. The better man ALWAYS wins, if the finish is clean. The difference is magnified a lot. If you're always losing clean it means you're BAD. Not "unlucky." You might not see it that way, but that's the way that the company has been trying to condition you to see it, and I'm willing to go with them on it if that's the lesson they want to teach.

 

Having 3 clean losses in a row means you're a chump, not a victim of circumstance.

[milamber]

What makes no sense to me about Orton face feuds is, he beats the heels cleanly time and time again and the heels don't ever get anywhere in the feud besides beating him down randomly.

 

I didn't like Orton beating Punk so many times (and RKOing every heel who annoyed him) either but I can see why they did it timing-wise. They were building Orton up to be as strong as Cena before his draft to Smackdown. Thank goodness Punk has come out of it okay. And this feud with Cena really is the best push Punk could ever hope for. He's getting massive heat and pop.

[milamber]

They didn't do it just to Punk though, they're doing it to Christian as well.

 

Again, I understand this. At first I was p***ed when Orton took the title off Christian. But it cemented Orton as top dog on SD, gave Christian a heel turn with an interesting storyline where he's actually being hard done by, providing him with motive. Plus, they've had some good matches.

 

But they have to make it a triple threat match with Sheamus at MITB because another Christian v Orton 1-on1 would be overkill. I hope they slap the belt on Sheamus and then have Christian beat Sheamus down the track.

 

As for Orton beating Barrett repeatedly. Well, I heard Vince wasn't happy with the Nexus storyline after the Cena feud ended so they de-pushed Barrett.

[milamber]

IMO, Heath Slater has no bussiness being a Heel. He doesn't have the talent for it, can't pull it off realistically, and well.... It's obvious he is a good guy that would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it, in real life.

 

Turn him face, he might go a little farther, but again, it's going to be hard to get past that look. He just looks like someone I wouldn't bet winning anything, lol.

 

I don't dislike him though.

 

Gabriel and Slater should both be faces but then they'd have to create a new heel tag team.

[Jaysin]

WWE should just abandon tag teams completely if they're not going to do it right...

 

Aren't the Uso's the only real tag team in the company? Unless you include Slater and Gabriel which they come across as two singles wrestlers thrown together.

[Teh_Showtime]

they failed HARD when they broke up the Hart Dynasty. It's not like there aren't good teams on the roster though. Hawkins and Ryder could team up again, Nexus, Slater/Gabriel, Usos, bring up Husky Harris' brother from FCW so they can team again. Steamboat and Seth Rollins too.

 

The potential is there, they just don't use it.

[DaMegaFish]

Having 2 clean losses in a row means you're a chump, not a victim of circumstance.

 

Fixed that for you. A match ending that has been made out as a bad call isn't a clean loss.

 

Also, as said before, the other matches he looked very much like a threat in and there is no way you can project him as being weak. When you lose to a flash move like the RKO in a very competitive match, it doesn't take away your heat right away. When you lose the second time in a competitive match, you have to be careful, because too many more times will start to make him look like he is unworthy. The third time however, he had the reason he lost as the foot under the rope was called incorrectly which leaves him looking fine after the match. If Christian loses a possible 3 way, then he still looks fine because he can claim he never got his one on one chance like he should have after being screwed.

 

He'll be fine.

[Jaysin]

Primo is still signed to WWE right? How come he's able to work WWC dates?

[Teh_Showtime]

I know that they (Him and Carlito, maybe even Orlando too) have been working for WWC sometimes over the past few years while on contract. I guess they allot them to do it

[Gabbo]

they failed HARD when they broke up the Hart Dynasty. It's not like there aren't good teams on the roster though. Hawkins and Ryder could team up again, Nexus, Slater/Gabriel, Usos, bring up Husky Harris' brother from FCW so they can team again. Steamboat and Seth Rollins too.

 

The potential is there, they just don't use it.

 

They aren't good tag teams though. They may have a gimmick what lends itself to a tag team but as far as wrestling goes they leave alot to be desired. Tag wrestling is completely different from singles wrestling. So putting two singles guys together doesn't mean you have a good tag team. No-one has any chemistry. When was the last time a tag-team had a joint finisher? How often do you see double team moves and even when you do it's a generic suplex or whatever.

 

These teams need a while to develop and grow together, a promise of time to work on moves and steps. With the rapid turnover of literally weeks to months (if they're lucky) how can any two guys develop chemistry and a moveset that lends itself to tag team wrestling?

 

Not to mention the fact that the psychology is completely different to singles wrestling.

 

Agree with whoever said, they may as well suspend the division if they aren't going to do it properly.

[Hive]

Proper tag team wrestling is a forgotten art in WWE.

[Fantabulous]

Because in the WWE, it's not like in MMA. The better man ALWAYS wins, if the finish is clean. The difference is magnified a lot. If you're always losing clean it means you're BAD. Not "unlucky." You might not see it that way, but that's the way that the company has been trying to condition you to see it, and I'm willing to go with them on it if that's the lesson they want to teach.

 

Having 3 clean losses in a row means you're a chump, not a victim of circumstance.

 

Christian has also been treated as a joke by the supposed babyface-GM. He had a legitimate complaint on losing the third match because his foot was under the ropes. Logically, he should get a rematch but no, the GM makes him jump through hoops to get it. Then, on Raw, Christian pins Orton clean. He beats the World Heavyweight Champion right in the middle. Again, logically he should get a title match because he PINNED THE CHAMPION. Once again, though, the babyface GM makes him jump through more hopes to get a title match he rightfully deserves. Not only does this make the GM come off as either a prick or a clueless idiot without the first grasp of logic, but you're booking THE HEEL of the feud like he's a wronged BABYFACE.

 

There's also the small matter that you're making a clean win over the champion mean nothing when achieving such a feat no longer means a title shot but instead it gets you a match where you have to beat contenders to get a shot at the champion you JUST PINNED. If you're going to beat your champion, clean no less, it should lead to a title match so that it gives the people the idea that beating the champion actually means something tangible. That beating the champion gets you a title match so if it happens in the future, they know it's something big. Here, all it means is the babyface GM just makes you jump through more hoops to get a title shot most people think you've already earned.

[sheepy]

The problem for the WWE tag teams is that to build new tag teams you need the established teams to put them up against of which there are exactly 0 at the moment.

 

It's hard to imagine if there is anyway the WWE could build a successful tag division in under 5 years max. You can call up X, Y and Z but as good as they may be, the fans just won't care.

 

The only hope for the WWE would be if they signed Beer Money / MCMG / Dudleys and made a big deal out of their time in TNA (not gonna happen) but at least that way you're establishing a dominant tag team. You'd need to put them over someone big (BOD might be decent candidates) to really establish them but it could be done.

 

The problem you've then got is where do you go with them afterwards? You're trying to establish them as the face of your division but you also need to build new teams so you can't put the less established teams over without destroying your new faces of the division. Flip side, you can't have them dominated the next team you're trying to bring up or they seem like jokes.

 

I honestly don't see any easy options for the WWE in building tag teams again. Maybe when trips takes over they may (see the start of his career for launching him) but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[shawn michaels]

Again, I understand this. At first I was p***ed when Orton took the title off Christian. But it cemented Orton as top dog on SD, gave Christian a heel turn with an interesting storyline where he's actually being hard done by, providing him with motive. Plus, they've had some good matches.

 

But they have to make it a triple threat match with Sheamus at MITB because another Christian v Orton 1-on1 would be overkill. I hope they slap the belt on Sheamus and then have Christian beat Sheamus down the track.

 

As for Orton beating Barrett repeatedly. Well, I heard Vince wasn't happy with the Nexus storyline after the Cena feud ended so they de-pushed Barrett.

 

Yeah, i read that somewhere too. Wich makes me think that the main purpose ot creating them in the first place was getting Cena (even more) over. No Cena in the storyline, no use for the nexus. Classic Vinnie Mac booking in the last years.

[Gabbo]

The problem for the WWE tag teams is that to build new tag teams you need the established teams to put them up against of which there are exactly 0 at the moment.

 

That's not a problem at all. You build 5 or 6 real teams that can beat each other. You build one team to be the best, even if they're midcards guys put them against Cena and Orton and have them win. Put over the fact that a real tag-team with real chemistry can beat two singles guys forced together. That's how you get a tag-team over, by putting the idea of a tag-team over first.

 

Then you have one properly established tag team. The argument of 'where do you go next' is also invalid. Where do you go next with Cena? You keep coming up with new and interesting ways to keep him relevant - so do the same with tag teams. Treat them as the different division that they are. Not a rung on the climb up a singles ladder. Then you end up with the lifelong tag teams that you had in before 1992.

 

Building it as a separate division also gives it prestige and people will want to form tag teams. Less talented guys will realise they can reach the top by being in a good solid team. Now they can't, because tag teams are only used to keep guys relevant before the WWE pushes the trigger on a singles push.

 

The entire system is bull**** and it won't get sorted unless someone really looks at it and gives a damn about rectifying it.

[Hive]

That's not a problem at all. You build 5 or 6 real teams that can beat each other. You build one team to be the best, even if they're midcards guys put them against Cena and Orton and have them win. Put over the fact that a real tag-team with real chemistry can beat two singles guys forced together. That's how you get a tag-team over, by putting the idea of a tag-team over first.

 

Then you have one properly established tag team. The argument of 'where do you go next' is also invalid. Where do you go next with Cena? You keep coming up with new and interesting ways to keep him relevant - so do the same with tag teams. Treat them as the different division that they are. Not a rung on the climb up a singles ladder. Then you end up with the lifelong tag teams that you had in before 1992.

 

Building it as a separate division also gives it prestige and people will want to form tag teams. Less talented guys will realise they can reach the top by being in a good solid team. Now they can't, because tag teams are only used to keep guys relevant before the WWE pushes the trigger on a singles push.

 

The entire system is bull**** and it won't get sorted unless someone really looks at it and gives a damn about rectifying it.

 

I completely agree.

 

These days, tag teams in WWE are basically used as an excuse for setting up a fed between two former partners later on - and most often, it's sooner rather than later.

 

Back in the old days we saw people get extremely over as a teag team with chemistry, matching attires and gimmicks and double team moves. Look at how huge The Road Warriors got, for example. Individually, they weren't really main eventers (though did occationally dabble into the main event for singles matches)... but together, they were at the very top of things.

 

I don't think a proper tag division would be that hard to get in WWE. Let's say they're able to sign The Motor City Machine Guns and Beer Money Inc from TNA and re-form The Hart Dynasty as well as keep The Usos around, the foundations would be there. They could throw Swagger and Danielson together in matching patriotic attire, having them work under a patriotic gimmick as hard-working American wrestlers who use skills to get ahead in life and live the American dream. Corny, I know, but USA never seems to get tired of patriotism. They could also try to put together a couple of big guys lacking charisma to make it on their own and throw some paint and funny costumes on them in a Road Warriors/Demolition/Ultimate Warrior gimmick amalgram. It worked before, it might work again. I would personally tune in to see this tag division on WWE television each week.