The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

[Stennick]

pretty much yes. He even compared each guy in Fortune to a Horseman member and then told them how they weren't as good as those guys ha ha. Just what you want from your elite stable (at the time) you guys remind me of these guys but not near as good ha ha.

[Bigpapa42]

diden't flair flat out say this is the horseman but he just could not call it that because wwe owned the copyright's to the four horsemen?

 

Yeah, pretty much. On the formative promo - after they started flashing the hand signal prior - he talked about how they would embody the spirit of the Horsemen but they couldn't use the name. A couple weeks after, he cut a long promo where he compared each of them to a member of the original Horsemen... and not that favorably.

 

Edit - Stennik beat me. And like I mentione before, if TNA clearly did everything possible to play up the comparisons.

[-laz-]

i used to watch TNA but after the crap they have been spewing out of hogans anus for the last month im done

[PeterHilton]

So we're all in agreement, then? This..

 

Fourtune is not like the old 4 Horseman at all. It is just a group of guys who are young and taking after their mentor.

 

When people compare Immortal to nWo I don't see it to be honest. nWo was something built up slowly actually and originally was very small but had the top stars.

 

..didn't make a whole lotta sense?

[Stennick]

Yeah again if people like it thats fine. I've expressed my dislike of them. Usually even when I'm not watching it I'll read the spoilers but for me even thats a waste of time.

 

However if I said a group of heel wrestlers that came together after Hogan turned heel in Daytona Beach on one of the biggest pay per views of the year also led by Eric Bischoff as they try to take over the professional wrestling company...by using gang attacks to finish matches, using black and white vignettes and coming out to a tune that sounds like "Rockhouse". What would you say that is? Going off of that definition thats the nWo amiright?

 

I could do the same for Flair's group but he did it for me by SAYING they can't be the Horsemen because he can't legally call them that so their Fortune.

 

Like it if you want, don't like it if you want, but don't try and pretend like I haven't see this 14 years ago.

 

The biggest question is this how many years SINCE then has there not been some nWo version or knock off version. 96,97,98,99,2000 all had atleast some nWo version for a little while if not the whole year. They came back in 02, Then didn't TNA run the "kings of wrestling" with JJ, Hall and Nash in like 2005? Then we had the MEM, Then Nexus, then we had The Band and now we have Immortal. Best I can tell there is about a four or five year gap where we haven't had some brutal knock off of the nWo.

 

It just goes to show you how completely unoriginal pro wrestling can be. Business has been in decline for atleast half a decade now and still they can't come up with something original. I would say their going to keep doing the nWo until it doesn't make any money but it hasn't made any since what? 1998?

[PeterHilton]

It just goes to show you how completely unoriginal pro wrestling can be. Business has been in decline for atleast half a decade now and still they can't come up with something original. I would say their going to keep doing the nWo until it doesn't make any money but it hasn't made any since what? 1998?

 

What bothers me is that they're doing a rip-off of what is, to me at least, the LEAST interesting version of the nWo: when every heel in the WCW was a member and Eric was in a position of power and every single match ended in a run-in mess. That was the version that eventually turned people off because there was NEVER a pay-off where the heels got their comeuppance.

 

I mean...with all the "WWE names" that came in early on, you could have easily booked the Outsiders aspect of the storyline too and had guys like Anderson, Hardy, RVD as the invaders and then do a giant turn with AJ..but whatever.

 

Now..in story terms...the next few weeks is where we see the Immortals establish themselves as the THE force to be reckoned with. So they should go over as much as possible. But Eric's problem was that he NEVER pulled the trigger on letting the 'good guys' go over the nWo (and whether he did it for personal ego or because he thought the nWo was the moneymaker in WCW we'll never know) so that's what would worry me as a viewer.

 

That - 6 months from now - The Immortals are still running wild and everyone not in the group is made to look like a huge joke.

[SaySo]

I found this on the forum boards on WrestleZone about Desmond Wolfe.

 

===

 

Here's what he (apparently) told Alex Marvez in 2009 in a telephone interview:

 

"I'm not making fun of it, but I do forget a lot of times. I remember sometimes earlier in my career where I would get into a car at night and see bright lights in the sky. After one match with Aries, I had to take the next night off and for a good week or so I couldn’t walk without stumbling. ... The weird thing is you don't know how many you can take before you suffer serious, permanent damage. ...

 

It's something I need to worry about. Unfortunately in this business, there's only so much you can do."

 

If true, it seems like some sort of neurological disorder. Which can lead to the end of his wrestling career.

 

===

[juggaloninjalee]

Ok if Immortal is the = to the nWo

 

Hollywood Hogan = Jeff Hardy (Doesn't fit really)

Hall and Nash = Abyss and ???

 

Abyss was kinda ringing the bell around TNA like Hall was in WCW. Nobody backed him up though like Nash backed Hall up. Plus Abyss is nothing like any of those guys. The closest comparison would be to compare him to the Giant.

 

The 4 Horseman never would have joined the nWo as they were out to prove they were the best in WCW. Fortune joined Immortal to get in on the action basically. While some similiarities are there I still wouldn't call this an nWo rip off at all.

 

I see some things that are like the old WWF Corporation though too.

 

As for the "gang tactics"... it is a heel stable and almost every heel stable sinceearly 90s did this before the nWo was doing the run in finish by DQ's.

 

to be continued...

[Bigpapa42]

It sounds like you expect TNA to be recreating it exactly before you would consider it a redo. Its like saying that Hogan, Angle, AJ, and Hebner doing the screwjob angle in January wasn't a rip off of the Montreal incident because the roles and circumstances were slightly different.

 

The truth is that TNA cannot absolutely recreate the genesis of the NWO with for-like workers in each role. Its just not possible - partly because they don't have workers who could have the same impact in the roles given to Nash, Hall & Hogan. But if you don't think they are trying to recreate it, again, I have to think its wishful thinking. Short of having for-like workers in the same roles, how much more similar would you need it to be to the NWO?

 

Its not just the fact that Hogan and Bischoff are playing major roles in a heel stable that makes it similar to the NWO. Its... everything. Its a major heel stable comprised of a great amount of the top talent who are collectively trying to "take over" a promotion. Its "outsiders" taking control with the help of those already inside the promotion. Its one worker warning of their coming, leading to a swerve finish to a PPV that includes a notable worker turning to join the heel stable.

 

You might see a few elements of The Corproation in there... but the Corporation was a fundamentally different heel stable. The entire intent of the stable was for the legal owner of the promotion exert control over the roster, with his corrupt exercise of power being more a focus than gang mentality. Moreover, McMahon and his Corporation were never trying to be the "cool guys" the way the NWO were, and McMahon understood that the payoff is the bad guy getting what he has coming.

 

Put it this way... If someone was trying to book a modern NWO recreation in TEW and the major points of similarity they managed were the same as what TNA has managed, I would probably say they did a pretty good job in recreating it. You wouldn't?

[alden]

in the tna remake of the nwo i would look at it like this. Hogan = hardy. The mega face turn heel. abyss would be hall.......the role bringing news of the group. hogan and eric well they fill somewhat of the same role *well atleast eric* jerret was a member of the nwo at one point so there you go .

[stratusfaction]

nice to see Katie Lea on Impact! Not sure what to make of her character or what she wants with Angelina. Guess we will find out soon enough. She is going by Winter...interesting. any thoughts on where this is going?

[djthefunkchris]

nice to see Katie Lea on Impact! Not sure what to make of her character or what she wants with Angelina. Guess we will find out soon enough. She is going by Winter...interesting. any thoughts on where this is going?

 

She's totally uninteresting to me, or has always been in the past. Hopefully TNA can do something with her, but then again... I feel like they have too much going already.

 

I still say this is going to be a ratings increase, for a good while.... Not just a couple of weeks. I don't think it's going to do what they are hoping for, but I do think they could use the extra viewers right now, and as time goes on, try to turn this into something alot more interesting then the Hogan/Flair/Bischoff show.

[stratusfaction]

She's totally uninteresting to me, or has always been in the past. Hopefully TNA can do something with her, but then again... I feel like they have too much going already.

 

I still say this is going to be a ratings increase, for a good while.... Not just a couple of weeks. I don't think it's going to do what they are hoping for, but I do think they could use the extra viewers right now, and as time goes on, try to turn this into something alot more interesting then the Hogan/Flair/Bischoff show.

 

She had a rather boring character in WWE but she is pretty amazing in the ring. I'm hoping now with Mickie and Katie signing that the Knockouts division goes back to the Kong/Kim days. But knowing TNA they will probably run this storyline where Winter is an invisible friend for a couple of weeks and then totally just forget about it and then she will just be lost in the shuffle some where like Hamada, Taylor and Sarita usually is.

 

Speaking of lost in the shuffle....where the hell is Daffney? I haven't seen her for months. Is she still healing from that injury from Rosie Lottalove like 5 months ago?

[Hyde Hill]

I think I saw Daffney on Xplosion before I stopped watching. So she is around just way at the bottom of the KO rsoter.

[PeterHilton]

Ok if Immortal is the = to the nWo

 

Hollywood Hogan = Jeff Hardy (Doesn't fit really)

Hall and Nash = Abyss and ???

 

Abyss was kinda ringing the bell around TNA like Hall was in WCW. Nobody backed him up though like Nash backed Hall up. Plus Abyss is nothing like any of those guys. The closest comparison would be to compare him to the Giant.

 

The 4 Horseman never would have joined the nWo as they were out to prove they were the best in WCW. Fortune joined Immortal to get in on the action basically. While some similiarities are there I still wouldn't call this an nWo rip off at all.

 

I see some things that are like the old WWF Corporation though too.

 

As for the "gang tactics"... it is a heel stable and almost every heel stable sinceearly 90s did this before the nWo was doing the run in finish by DQ's.

 

to be continued...

 

This is a joke, right?

 

Even the people involved (Hogan and Flair) are admitting that the new groups are supposed to be similar. That's why Fourtune uses the hand signs. That's why The Immortals use the black & white vignettes. The fact that you don't see it is only because you don't want to see it.

 

You're wrong and you're just being argumentative to prove a point.

 

Which is too bad because it's a stupid point to make. Nothing you say is going to disprove the similarities. Again..if you like TNA and the current story, there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. But denying that these two groups are Horsemen/nWo knock-offs when it's clear that they are SUPPOSED to be Horsemen/nWo just makes you look entirely unreasonable.

[20LEgend]

Where is Shawn Hernandez?

 

Is he not being used or is it something else?

[Slagaholic]

I think I saw Daffney on Xplosion before I stopped watching. So she is around just way at the bottom of the KO rsoter.

I read somewhere that she's working as a trainer.

[Anderz]

Where is Shawn Hernandez?

 

Is he not being used or is it something else?

 

hes still on loan to AAA as far as I know..

[20LEgend]

hes still on loan to AAA as far as I know..

 

Anyone got any ideas as to when he''l be back?(i'd imagine no one reakky knows)

[thommohawk]

I strongly disagree with the people saying TNA are copying the nWo and that Immortal is a nWo rip off, reason being is that the original nWo (circa 1997)itself was a copy job of an angle/stable that New Japan ran prior to WCW. However it was Bischoff/Hogan's brilliant idea to take something Vince had overlooked and run with it frankly because both parties were in different positions creatively with their respective companies. And the same rings true now with Jeff Hardy's heel turn. Whether you're coming from 1997 or jumping to 2010 it highlights the fact that pro wrestling is and has been in a state of flux creatively where true originality is difficult to come by, even ECW struggled in that aspect after 1998, except nowadays it's a lot more difficult to come up with original stuff because ask yourselves, what can one do that truly hasn't all been done before in some capacity or another ? And yet these angles come across as rehashes of a bygone era, some more so than others, yet while the blueprint is the same the content is different. I sometimes just think wrestling fans need to start getting realistic sometimes. That even in the 90s/early millennium originality was hard to come by and that's even more so now.

 

I truly believe that there's nothing new that can be done at this point, outside of turning key wrestlers and concocting new match types, and not all of them good, and creating a show with great writing and presentation I don't think there's anything more that can be done, but then that's what it always was during the best years. Nothing more.

 

In my opinion, the company that gets lots of momentum is the company that writes the best product in terms of presentation....for me most of the reason the original ECW worked so effectively (at least when it was in business) as an entertainment platform was because it was not only well written but it was presented smartly and intelligently. Like for example referencing Smarks and the IWC in mid promo and taking jabs at the competition. It set them apart and it was so different. That hasn't been done as effectively since. I know Hogan's tried it recently with TNA but frankly it works so much better when a Cyrus or Shane Douglas in their prime does it.

[Bigpapa42]

I strongly disagree with the people saying TNA are copying the nWo and that Immortal is a nWo rip off, reason being is that the original nWo (circa 1997)itself was a copy job of an angle/stable that New Japan ran prior to WCW. However it was Bischoff/Hogan's brilliant idea to take something Vince had overlooked and run with it frankly because both parties were in different positions creatively with their respective companies. And the same rings true now with Jeff Hardy's heel turn. Whether you're coming from 1997 or jumping to 2010 it highlights the fact that pro wrestling is and has been in a state of flux creatively where true originality is difficult to come by, even ECW struggled in that aspect after 1998, except nowadays it's a lot more difficult to come up with original stuff because ask yourselves, what can one do that truly hasn't all been done before in some capacity or another ? And yet these angles come across as rehashes of a bygone era, some more so than others, yet while the blueprint is the same the content is different. I sometimes just think wrestling fans need to start getting realistic sometimes. That even in the 90s/early millennium originality was hard to come by and that's even more so now.

 

I truly believe that there's nothing new that can be done at this point, outside of turning key wrestlers and concocting new match types, and not all of them good, and creating a show with great writing and presentation I don't think there's anything more that can be done, but then that's what it always was during the best years. Nothing more.

 

So your logic is that because the original NWO was not an original idea, its therefore impossible for someone to try to rip it off and recreate it? I don't see the logic there...

 

As for "no new ideas left", this has been discussed a few times of late in this thread. There is nothing wrong with reusing old ideas... if you are updating them and doing things to make them feel fresh. And that is where TNA fails, in my opinion. They not only fail to make things feel fresh for the most part, but go out of their way to keep the connection as strong as possible.

 

Evolution was not really an original idea when the WWE put the stable together. Although there were some obvious differences, it could have been seen as another Four Horsemen ripoff. Especially if they had started throwing out the hand signal and comparing themselves to the Horsemen off the start. Instead, the WWE was smart enough to emphasize what made the stable different and it became something that stood on its own. Same with the whole Nexus group - the basic ideas behind the group are nothing new. By choosing who they used and how it was presented, the WWE made it feel fresh. I'm not trying to claim that the WWE always gets things right in this sense, simply pointing out that it is entirely possible to reuse old ideas without making it blatantly clear and obvious that you are trying to ripoff the old idea.

[cappyboy]

I'm not trying to claim that the WWE always gets things right in this sense, simply pointing out that it is entirely possible to reuse old ideas without making it blatantly clear and obvious that you are trying to ripoff the old idea.

 

Indeed. There's an old line and I wish I could remember who said it. "Those who are most creative conceal their sources the best." That's TNA's problem when it comes to this topic. They aren't concealing their sources. They are broadcasting them for the world to see. When that happens, the old idea is always going to look better for the simple matter that it was. The old idea will have had its origins hidden and surprised people where the new one surprises nobody because they know where it came from.

[Hyde Hill]

Also there is no problem referencing the old stable in this case or saying you are carrying out it's legacy as long as you make CLEAR that you are a MODERN and FRESH incarnation of it.

 

Flair: "Fourtune is an Evolution of the Four Horseman and Fourtune is going to be better then both combined"

 

AJ: "And there is no doubt about it because we are so fourtunate in talent and skill and looks that we all are simply Phenominal"

 

ONE freaking promo and it's clear and done. Instead TNA doesn't even try.

[Candyman]

So your logic is that because the original NWO was not an original idea, its therefore impossible for someone to try to rip it off and recreate it? I don't see the logic there...

 

I'm glad you responded first, because you said it a lot nicer than I would have. That really makes no sense whatsoever. If I steal an idea from you, who cares where you got it? I still stole it from you. Sure, WCW stole the nWo idea from Japan. But TNA is doing it because WCW did it, not because they did it in Japan.

[Stennick]

I strongly disagree with the people saying TNA are copying the nWo and that Immortal is a nWo rip off, reason being is that the original nWo (circa 1997)itself was a copy job of an angle/stable that New Japan ran prior to WCW. However it was Bischoff/Hogan's brilliant idea to take something Vince had overlooked and run with it frankly because both parties were in different positions creatively with their respective companies. And the same rings true now with Jeff Hardy's heel turn. Whether you're coming from 1997 or jumping to 2010 it highlights the fact that pro wrestling is and has been in a state of flux creatively where true originality is difficult to come by, even ECW struggled in that aspect after 1998, except nowadays it's a lot more difficult to come up with original stuff because ask yourselves, what can one do that truly hasn't all been done before in some capacity or another ? And yet these angles come across as rehashes of a bygone era, some more so than others, yet while the blueprint is the same the content is different. I sometimes just think wrestling fans need to start getting realistic sometimes. That even in the 90s/early millennium originality was hard to come by and that's even more so now.

 

I truly believe that there's nothing new that can be done at this point, outside of turning key wrestlers and concocting new match types, and not all of them good, and creating a show with great writing and presentation I don't think there's anything more that can be done, but then that's what it always was during the best years. Nothing more.

 

In my opinion, the company that gets lots of momentum is the company that writes the best product in terms of presentation....for me most of the reason the original ECW worked so effectively (at least when it was in business) as an entertainment platform was because it was not only well written but it was presented smartly and intelligently. Like for example referencing Smarks and the IWC in mid promo and taking jabs at the competition. It set them apart and it was so different. That hasn't been done as effectively since. I know Hogan's tried it recently with TNA but frankly it works so much better when a Cyrus or Shane Douglas in their prime does it.

 

In this entire post you never once state now Immortal is different than the nWo. You don't even go the obvious (the roles don't fit) argument that has been weakly applied in the past.

 

You gave us four or five paragraphs there and all you said was I strongly disagree with Immortal being a ripoff. If you strongly disagree then state why you strongly disagree. My guess is that because they didn't do it exactly how WCW did it then its not a rip off.

 

I've laid it out several times. Hogan turns heel in Daytona, he's calling himself Hollywood Hogan, its a giant heel stable of guys that want to take over control of TNA via gang attacks and internal power with Eazy E. They film their vingettes in black and white and even their music is a direct knock off of "Rockhouse" the nWo music. Again if you LIKE Immortal thats one thing but please oh please don't try and justify them as not the nWo because they are exactly that. Even Ed Leslie who as you know is Hogan's BEST friend said days beforehand that Hogan wanted to recreate the nWo in TNA. Immortal is the nWo that statement is as close to fact as you'll come across in the fake world of pro wrestling.

 

That being said I will strongly disagree with you're "everything has been done before".

 

You really think people didn't believe this in 1930 before Nuclear Fission became possible? You really don't think people believed this before television, computers, planes, etc.?

 

Same thing holds true for pro wrestling. There has been plenty of new ideas tossed around in wrestling over the years. You say the nWo was a rip off of something in Japan but it wasn't even close. The nWo was mostly simulated by a certain German regime thats name is filtered here. With the propaganda, the evil dictator, the gang blitzkrieg attacks, the recognizable hand signal, the uniform colors, etc.

 

Again though it doesn't matter if its new as long as its fresh. The X Division despite their monkier was CLEARLY an evolution of the cruiserweight division but it was fresh, it was modern it was new for all intents and purposes.

 

You know whats not fresh? Four or five fifty year old men standing in a ring screaming non sense about a pro wrestling promotion none of them work for and they all had a hand in killing over a decade ago. Thats not fresh. You know what else isn't fresh? Doing the SAME thing with ECW an even less important promotion with even less name value stars doing the opposite and professing to beat each other up to make sure ECW lives on.

 

You know whats fresh? Displaying women like Awesome Kong, Gail Kim, Alissa Flash, Sarita, even ODB and presenting them as equals to the men. Giving them nearly as much hype and air time as the men. Bragging and really putting over just how talented they are and really allowing them to display their atheltic ablities.

 

You know whats not fresh? Firing all of these women when they got upset with their low pay grade in comparison to the types of ratings they were drawing. You know whats not fresh? Replacing those young, exciting, athletic, original looking women with bleached blonde, fake implanted, spray on tan, uncoordinated bimbos....and then continuing to try and brag about your elite women's division while paying your announcer ten times the amount in a year that you're paying nearly the entire women's division.

 

So please don't talk about how things can't be done and how we should just accept that we're forced to watch the same things over and over again for the rest of our pro wrestling watching days. Frankly speaking its people like you that allow TNA to get away with this junk. Its that exact mentality. "Well what can they do that hasn't been done, this is good enough for me". Instead of demanding that they do better and talking via your television remote and wallet you become their enabler. You know how I told the WWE I wasn't happy with their shows? I stopped watching them, stopped buying pay per views and stopped wasting my time with their products. Thats exactly how I have let TNA know that I'm not happy with their product.

 

People want to "give them the benefit of the doubt" with the Immortal story but the truth is their out of chances. I gave them the benefit of the doubt when I bought two tickets to Lockdown, bought a t shirt. I gave them the benefit of the doubt by watching their television show for months at a time. They responded to my patience by bringing back ECW, and WCW and now the nWo and the Four Horsemen. TNA doesn't get the benefit of anything from me anymore.