The Official ROH Discussion Thread

[TakerNGN74]

It is Nigel McGuinness who set this whole thing up from a storyline standpoint. Though his goal is the same as Jim's he wants to get the belt off Steen so that he can bring honor back to the company.

 

Yeah Nigel set it up in storyline and yeah Nigel's goal is pretty much the same as Cornettes to take the belt off of Steen and bring Honor back to ROH.

[BHK1978]

I think the story being McGuinness bringing back Generico as one last throw of the dice is good.

 

Who is the last person to defeat Steen in ROH?

 

Also Kyle O'Reilly on the mic, he sounds like some teen drama actor.

 

Yeah I hate Kyle O'Reilly with a passion, that dude just bothers me. I think the main reason is because he is such a bad talker.

[TakerNGN74]

Yeah I hate Kyle O'Reilly with a passion, that dude just bothers me. I think the main reason is because he is such a bad talker.

 

I am with you on that as well, he's not a bad wrestler but he is a horrible talker and I almost always mute my TV whenever he is talking.

[The Final Countdown]

I don't know, do you guys watch ROH actively or do you just do the four or five PPVs a year thing? The only story that makes sense is Steen vs Generico. They actually don't do it all that often. They've got an incredible feud, they work well together, and it's got a long-term storyline fans can get into.

I agree with this. This isn't Cena/Orton or something like that where they've wrestled each other time and time again. Without looking it up, I can only think of three singles matches between Steen and Generico in ROH--if you crammed them all into a six month period in TEW, you wouldn't even get a booking penalty . In that epic year-long feud, they had exactly two one-on-one matches. Despite the fact that the FB2010 match will be extremely hard to top, this definitely doesn't have the feel of overkill or stale booking for me.

 

It also makes perfect sense to do this match on this particular show when you look at the past few Final Battles:

 

2009: Steen turns on Generico and bashes him in the head with a chair

2010: Generico beats Steen in Mask vs. Career, sends him away for a legit six months

2011: Steen beats Steve Corino to earn his way back into ROH. When Generico comes out after the match to try and stop him from injuring Cornette, he takes out Generico instead with the package piledriver.

 

So yeah, as a longtime ROH fan, this match makes perfect sense to me, and is the primary reason I will be ordering this show.

 

And here's another thought on Steen/Generico match. Think about the TV audience. Think about the people who were either totally new to RoH or only started watching the promotion closely since Sinclair came into the picture. Those of us who came in at that time aren't invested in Steen/Generico. Generico isn't on RoH TV enough for there to be an investment there. The TV audience would be much more into Steen/Lethal seeing that we've seen the Rahway match and the fallout from it. Whereas the Steen/Generico history all came before the TV audience was in the picture.

This is an interesting point. I understand where you're coming from, because if I had started watching ROH at the beginning of the Sinclair show, I'm not sure how I'd feel about a guy who I've hardly even seen headlining what is supposed to be the biggest show of the year. Steen and Lethal is a story that has definitely seen more development on the TV show. Even this past show, just a week out from Final Battle, seemed to be more focused on Lethal's frustration and his promise to "fight" the champion at Final Battle than it was on Steen vs. Generico. I thought the video package they did for the Steen/Generico history was really well done, but I can still understand why the TV audience, such as it is, would be more interested in Steen vs. Lethal.

 

Those were huge WTF moments but the biggest to me was when I heard Brodie Lee had signed a developmental contract with WWE. I just do not get that at all.

I didn't get that at all either. Maybe he improved post-ROH, but I found him quite dull as a member of Age of the Fall.

 

Yeah I hate Kyle O'Reilly with a passion, that dude just bothers me. I think the main reason is because he is such a bad talker.

I'm fine with O'Reilly when he's actually wrestling, but his promos are horrible. That dude should not be allowed to speak, ever.

 

Since I saw him mentioned: poor Rhett Titus! The ANX finally get the belts, and Kenny leaves like two weeks later. Kenny had to do what was best for him, but it sucks for Rhett, who kind of got left out in the cold. Whitmer's decent and all, but Kenny King he is not.

[BHK1978]

I am with you on that as well, he's not a bad wrestler but he is a horrible talker and I almost always mute my TV whenever he is talking.

 

I'm fine with O'Reilly when he's actually wrestling, but his promos are horrible. That dude should not be allowed to speak, ever.

 

To me there is nothing different about O'Reilly, yes he is pretty good in the ring, but he looks like any other weekend warrior Indy Wrestler. The fact that he cannot speak well hurts him even more in my opinion.

[TakerNGN74]

To me there is nothing different about O'Reilly, yes he is pretty good in the ring, but he looks like any other weekend warrior Indy Wrestler. The fact that he cannot speak well hurts him even more in my opinion.

 

I think he would be more accepted if he could talk but since he is awful at it he shouldn't even be handed a microphone (Seriously the ROH bookers should fine themselves for letting him talk) but yeah he does look very generic the only thing that sets him apart is the fact that he is a decent wrestler and I am being nice when I am saying that because if it wasn't for his decent wrestling skills he wouldn't even be able to be in the business.

[BHK1978]

I think he would be more accepted if he could talk but since he is awful at it he shouldn't even be handed a microphone (Seriously the ROH bookers should fine themselves for letting him talk) but yeah he does look very generic the only thing that sets him apart is the fact that he is a decent wrestler and I am being nice when I am saying that because if it wasn't for his decent wrestling skills he wouldn't even be able to be in the business.

 

There was one episode a couple of months ago where he sat in on commentary for a match. He said maybe twenty words during the entire match and it was just awful, that was when I first realized that he could not talk to save his life.

 

Okay that is enough Kyle bashing from me...for tonight.

[TakerNGN74]

There was one episode a couple of months ago where he sat in on commentary for a match. He said maybe twenty words during the entire match and it was just awful, that was when I first realized that he could not talk to save his life.

 

Okay that is enough Kyle bashing from me...for tonight.

 

That's funny because I know exactly what you are talking about because I remember the exact same thing.

[bigtplaystew]

Kyle def has that "something". I can't say he oozes with it (giggity) but it's there. I know he is not the best talker, but for whatever reason the live crowds do seem to get that slightly extra level of involvement with his matches.

 

Keep in mind that years ago and indy darling named Brian Danielson was considered by all in the IWC a man who was fantastic in the ring but simply could...not... talk :-)

 

Turns out some people can actually improve on their weaknesses if you give them time and the forum to do so.

[BHK1978]

Kyle def has that "something". I can't say he oozes with it (giggity) but it's there. I know he is not the best talker, but for whatever reason the live crowds do seem to get that slightly extra level of involvement with his matches.

 

Keep in mind that years ago and indy darling named Brian Danielson was considered by all in the IWC a man who was fantastic in the ring but simply could...not... talk :-)

 

Turns out some people can actually improve on their weaknesses if you give them time and the forum to do so.

 

When you are right you are right, when Brian Danielson was first signed to the WWE I did not get why they would do that. After all, I like many others felt that he could not talk. I was proven wrong and maybe with time I will be proven wrong about Kyle.

[The Final Countdown]

I didn't understand why Danielson still had that stigma attached to him when they signed him in '09. He was a poor talker and not very charismatic when ROH first began, no doubt, but I thought he really started to blossom somewhere around 2006 or so, during his world title reign.

 

As for O'Reilly, I think he's a far worse speaker than Danielson ever was. I don't think he's at Bryan's level in the ring either, be it Danielson in 2002 or Daniel Bryan in 2012. Like you said, though, there is still time and opportunity for him to improve. In the meantime, I think he could benefit from a mouthpiece. Maybe Truth Martini, since the HoT is gone?

[cappyboy]

 

 

I thought the video package they did for the Steen/Generico history was really well done, but I can still understand why the TV audience, such as it is, would be more interested in Steen vs. Lethal.

 

Definitely agree. They certainly did the best job they could with that video at filling people in as to why the Steen/Generico history was important. And just because I'm not invested in Generico doesn't mean I'm intractably unwilling to be. The few times he's been on Sinclair TV I've really liked Generico. Ray Stevens looking beard and all. If they'd put him on TV, I'd probably become a big fan of the guy and I'd like to think that goes for a lot of the new TV audience. Generico's good. He's just not around that much.

 

 

Since I saw him mentioned: poor Rhett Titus! The ANX finally get the belts, and Kenny leaves like two weeks later. Kenny had to do what was best for him, but it sucks for Rhett, who kind of got left out in the cold. Whitmer's decent and all, but Kenny King he is not.

 

Oh definitely. I like Titus. I see real potential in him. I just wish they had paired him with a Mike Sydal or a Chris Silvio. Someone who suits the personality he was projecting as part of the All Night Express better than BJ Whitmer. Whitmer has his place and in another context I could probably appreciate him. But they seem so mismatched. I'm not sure what I'd call Whitmer's ring style would be in TEW terms but I tend to think Titus would be deemed an Entertainer. And on the mic, say what you will about Titus' ability but he far overshadows Whitmer. Whitmer seems like he should be running more with somebody like The Briscoes or Grizzly Redwood. Someone countrified like that rather than a party animal like Titus. So much more could have been done when Kenny King left to keep Rhett afloat. But when they gave the tag titles to Corino and Jacobs and stuck Rhett with BJ Whitmer they pretty much sucked all the life out of any storyline he had going. His beef with Haas and Benjamin feels almost like an afterthought anymore. And I have to say I find that fact really annoying.

[bigtplaystew]

As for O'Reilly, I think he's a far worse speaker than Danielson ever was. I don't think he's at Bryan's level in the ring either, be it Danielson in 2002 or Daniel Bryan in 2012.

 

Kyle's 25 years old, dude lol. He's a friggin baby in this game. I'm not saying he's at Danielson's level or anything. Never even tried to make that point. I just used Danielson as an example of someone who had that extra level of "it" but was considered someone who didn't have enough of the pieces to really achieve great success at the next level. And look at him now.

 

Is Kyle going to be the next John Cena? Hell no :-)

 

But he definitely could be a viable main event player in ROH and throughout the indies in the next couple of years given he has the time and desire to improve. At least in my opinion.

[cappyboy]

Kyle def has that "something". I can't say he oozes with it (giggity) but it's there. I know he is not the best talker, but for whatever reason the live crowds do seem to get that slightly extra level of involvement with his matches.

 

I think I can explain that actually. And I don't know it's the "something" folks usually mean when people say things like you just did. He doesn't have charisma as far as I can see it. He certainly doesn't have great mic skills. What Kyle has that has made the storyline work for me is conviction. For whatever limits he has to his charisma and how much showmanship he lacks in saying it, he sounds like he truly believes every single word he's saying. It reminds me of listening to an Arn Anderson or Chris Benoit speak. Granted Arn was more skilled of an orator. But it was always Arn's conviction that made me take the time to listen to him more than it was the pretty word choice and acting skill. Ditto Benoit. The Crippler could only bring so much showmanship to his promos but when he spoke a word, you knew his character meant it. If Kyle can figure out how to make his mannerisms accentuate that convicton, the rest should sort itself out for him.

 

But again, RoH has been bugging me with this storyline lately. I agree with Final countdown that O'Reilly needs someone to play off of. But as with Rhett Titus, they seem determined to tear Kyle's story down. I mean Bobby Fish? Another random dullard from out of blue like Rhett got in BJ Whitmer? No thank you. And why oh why did Davey have to go and reference Kyle's wife? Mike Bennett could have been a good voice in Kyle's ear. Plying Kyle with promises of gold, advanced training from Bullet Bob, and more Kanellis sisters where Maria came from. But so much for that idea with Davey playing the Erica card.

 

I also like the Truth Martini idea Final Countdown had. Kyle needs a personality to help him expand his presentation of his own. Truth needs to rebuild his stable. And Kyle certainly could use a "life interventation expert." [ Love that phrase for Martini BTW ] Would be a perfect match and I'm sure Roddy wouldn't need to feel threatened by Kyle. Strong could focus on the world title while Kyle went for TV to build himself up and maybe cause trouble for ex-buddy Adam Cole. But it seems like they want to over-complicate the Davey-Kyle beef. So annoying.

[The Final Countdown]

Kyle's 25 years old, dude lol. He's a friggin baby in this game. I'm not saying he's at Danielson's level or anything. Never even tried to make that point. I just used Danielson as an example of someone who had that extra level of "it" but was considered someone who didn't have enough of the pieces to really achieve great success at the next level. And look at him now.

 

Is Kyle going to be the next John Cena? Hell no :-)

 

But he definitely could be a viable main event player in ROH and throughout the indies in the next couple of years given he has the time and desire to improve. At least in my opinion.

Danielson was 21 or 22 when ROH opened, which was why I mentioned 2002-era Danielson in comparison to O'Reilly. I think they're at completely different levels regardless, and evidently so do you, so I guess there's not much more to say about that.

 

I do agree that O'Reilly has the potential to be in the main event scene in the future. He's a good worker, and I enjoy his matches most of the time. I just think he'd have a better shot at making that leap if his strengths were emphasized and his weaknesses accounted for, which was why I mentioned the idea of him taking on a manager to handle the majority of the talking.

 

Oh, and cappy: you mentioned Kyle joining the HoT along with Roddy, but Roddy ditched Truth just like Elgin did. Maybe that changes at Final Battle, but if not, Truth is left with no one to manage--which is why I like the idea of him joining up with O'Reilly so much.

[Bosox]

My Thoughts

 

It's been a long time since I have paid any attention to ROH and it's product. I pretty much lost interest in not only ROH, but wrestling as a whole a few years ago. But like all you guys know, the itch came back. First I started watching my old WWE dvds and the fever took over. I became obsessed again. I was watching whatever I could from the E.

 

Then I really started focusing in on tag team wrestling, which has always been a favorite of mine, and here's where the WWE falls extremely short. It's well-documented that the E isn't a huge fan of tag teams. They have had some great amazing teams and fail to really use them properly, so I started thinking about where I could get my tag team fix and i recalled the last ROH show I went to, Honor Reclaims Boston, and it's terrific main event match of KENTA & Davey Richards vs. Austin Aries & Roderick Strong. So I began looking back into ROH and it took over. So much has happened since I stopped paying attention!

 

I first got into ROH right around the time of the first Epic Encounter. I saw the internet explode when Bryan Danielson and Paul London had their legit 5* 2/3 Falls match. I started following the promotion intensely and went to my first ROH show at the 2nd Anniversary Show, cheereing on AJ Styles as he won the tournament to be crowned the first Pure Wrestling Champion! I remained a huge fan until Final Battle 2006. For some reason I was never a huge fan of Homicide and when he won the title I became uninterested and didn't really follow ROH as closely.

 

Wrestling as a whole became very uninteresting for me and I stopped watching and caring, but the fire was still there just very very dim. That all changed recently when I stumbled across my old Bret Hart dvd and I had the biggest urge to watch his insanely good match against Mr. Perfect for the IC title. After that I was completely hooked again and have been since. I just recently purchased the two new Briscoe Brothers DVDs (I do love me some tag team wrestling) and the Punk vs Joe Trilogy DVD. I can't wait to watch them and really get back into Ring Of Honor!!!!

[cappyboy]

 

Oh, and cappy: you mentioned Kyle joining the HoT along with Roddy, but Roddy ditched Truth just like Elgin did. Maybe that changes at Final Battle, but if not, Truth is left with no one to manage--which is why I like the idea of him joining up with O'Reilly so much.

 

And I am aware of that. But I could see Roddy coming back to Truth if it became clear that he'd be the lead dog again. Strong's departure feels more like a fit of pique than a true desire to disassociate himself from The House of Truth. It's Elgin rise and the involvement of bigger names like Rhino and The Headbangers that he's upset about. Nothing that can't be ironed out now that everything's imploded.

[BHK1978]

I always find it so odd to see Brutal Bob on television. I can still remember when he and Justin Credible (At the time he went by the name of PJ Walker.) were on the local Indy scene back in the early to mid-1990’s. I used to talk to Bob all of the time at the various shows because sadly I would go to them all of the time.

 

I remember one time getting out of a WWF house show at the Providence Civic Center and he was handing out fliers for an event he was wrestling at. I am glad that he made it into a known promotion.

[cappyboy]

I always find it so odd to see Brutal Bob on television. I can still remember when he and Justin Credible (At the time he went by the name of PJ Walker.) were on the local Indy scene back in the early to mid-1990’s. I used to talk to Bob all of the time at the various shows because sadly I would go to them all of the time.

 

I remember one time getting out of a WWF house show at the Providence Civic Center and he was handing out fliers for an event he was wrestling at. I am glad that he made it into a known promotion.

 

Brutal Bob's a prime real world example of the kind of guy that I like to have main event my training feds in TEW. He toils in obscurity for most of his career. Then you finally catch him long after he's past his prime and wish like crazy you could have seem him much sooner than you did. Every time the storyline's called for him to wrestle, I've been really impressed with the guy. If he's as good as he is at this age, I can only imagine what I missed out on when he was working those local indies. A lot of guys Evans' age could have had it and lost it to age. But he still puts on a good solid match every time it's asked of him. RoH is very lucky to have him.

[The Final Countdown]

I won't spoil Final Battle for those who may plan on watching it later, but I definitely felt that I got my money's worth. Steen vs. Generico was an insane spectacle.

[michgcs]

LATEST ROH EVENT SPOILER:

 

Apparently, Jay Briscoe beat Kevin Steen for the title tonight.

[BHK1978]

LATEST ROH EVENT SPOILER:

 

Apparently, Jay Briscoe beat Kevin Steen for the title tonight.

 

I don't think it is a spoiler any longer so I quoted you without putting you post in white.

 

First off I thought you told me you do not watch ROH.

 

Way to go on another messed up IPPV ROH, yeah people would not want to see the end of that match.

 

I have to admit I did not see this coming. I am not sure how I feel about Jay holding the title. To me he is a tag team guy but then again every time I have said that in the past the "just a tag team guy" became a star (Bret Hart, Booker T., Scott Steiner, James Storm.) so maybe he is the right guy to give the title to.

 

Spoiler please do not quote this:I read at the television tapings that Steen was kicked out of SCUM which while it was painfully obvious that, that is what was going to happen. I still wonder what the heck they are going to do with him now.

 

Okay some ROH thoughts from me:

 

Is it me or is Jay Lethal's normal speaking voice annoying? I wish he would go back to doing his Macho Man impersonation.

 

Has anyone ever watched a match with Veda Scott wrestling? Is she any good?

 

I have a tough time thinking of her as a wrestler. She is a terrible color commentator but she is cute so she gets a pass.

 

Red Dragon? Seriously?

 

Come on nothing about either of them is intimidating. Could you find two more boring guys to put together into a team? They are like ROH's version Three Man Band in that they took the people that I dislike the most on their roster and put them into a team.

[The Final Countdown]

Border Wars is tonight. I'm not ordering, but I will say I'm sort of expecting Adam Cole to win the world title and join SCUM. I've never seen him as a heel, but he is supposedly great at it. And to me, him losing the TV title to Matt Taven makes zero sense unless he's either turning, or did not sign a contract extension because he thinks a WWE offer is imminent (I don't follow that sort of thing very closely.)

 

Either way, I don't see Jay being champ for very long. I like Jay and don't mind him having the belt, but I just don't think it's going to be a long term thing.

 

BHK: I totally agree about Lethal. The Macho (or Flair) impersonator gimmick is the only time I've found him interesting as a character. He's a very good wrestler, but I find him pretty bland otherwise.

 

I actually like Red Dragon (reDRagon?) The pairing with Fish has helped me overlook the things I don't like about Kyle. But you seem to dislike Bobby too, so I guess that doesn't work too well for you.

[Jaysin]

Jay Briscoe is an idiot.

 

Insanely talented guy, but wow, what an idiot.

[BHK1978]

<p>The following is a spoiler. Please do not quote what it said...</p><p> </p><p>

So I just read that <span style="color:#FFFFFF;">Jay and Mark Briscoe are gone from the company. They have been written off and it will happen sometime in July. I do not get ROH, why give the title to someone knowing that their contracts are about to expire. From what I read it seems like ROH did not want to extend their contracts which is fine and all but have Jay drop the title before his contract expires. This is like the Kenny King thing all over again and it really makes ROH look like a bush league promotion.</span></p>