The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[Daffanka]

With Maia presumably getting destroyed in a week who do people feel are the most credible challengers to Anderson?

 

I'm seeing Sonnen, Henderson, Okami and Palhares in roughly that order. Sonnen is a great wrestler who can continually put Anderson on his back for five rounds and pound out a decision. Henderson put Anderson on his back but he's not terribly effective from the top and he has that tendency to start madly throwing his fists around. Okami can take him down but like Henderson he's not terribly efficient from the top and while his stand up looked good against Linhares it's not going to save him. We might see a fantastic Okami now that he's got access to a proper US training camp but judging him from his last performances I don't think he's more likely to beat Anderson than the other two good wrestlers.

 

Palhares has a great chin, is really strong and is a guy who takes huge risks for huge rewards. He'll pull mount just to get a shot at a heel hook. If anything I feel like this is the kind of BJJ player who can threaten Anderson because him, Maia, Jacare, or anyone is at huge risk when it's standing (Jacare in particular) but while they might have an advantage on the floor it's not overwhelming, certainly not to the point where it'll be a quick guard pass into an easy submission. I might eat my words but it feels like that kind of strategy won't do anything but stall, while Toquinho's going to do all kinds of crazy things where if they work will submit Anderson. I don't think it'll happen but I feel like that's the best shot anyone who's not a powerful wrestler.

[ACCBiggz]

I feel like this is the kind of BJJ player who can threaten Anderson because him, Maia, Jacare, or anyone is at huge risk when it's standing (Jacare in particular)

 

He's completely safe... they've been training together so they aren't going to fight even if he entered the UFC in the future. >_>

[Daffanka]

He's completely safe... they've been training together so they aren't going to fight even if he entered the UFC in the future. >_>

 

Jacare's in Black House? That explains why his striking improving so fast but still

[RingofHonorGuard]

Jacare isn't with Black House full time. He's just friends with a lot of fighters there, and has been training there as of late. Think of it like Sakuraba when he went to train with Chute Boxe for a while.

 

Jacare, to my knowledge, is still associated with that triad of camps the Couture bunch has going on in Vegas. Wand Team, Xtreme Couture, and Team Thompkins. They may not be under the same name, but they're all closely related, and jump between gyms.

 

But yeah, Jacare pretty much said he wouldn't fight Silva, and said Silva's jiu jitsu game is vastly underrated after rolling with him. Silva and Jacare have been sparring somewhat exclusively, which yes, Daff, as you eluded to is why his striking has improved.

 

As far as challengers for Silva go... There's really nobody left. There are no challengers in the Middleweight division that would have more than 30% of the people buying into a chance of a win for the challenger. Sonnen is always improving and he's way better than the fighter he was in the two Filho fights... But come on... Sonnen can probably take Anderson down, but Silva's triangle guard is so ridiculous and Sonnen's sub defense is so bad that he'd most likely end up getting beat on from the bottom ala Silva/Lutter and submitted.. And on the feet it's no contest, Anderson would maul him.

 

It's annoying that everyone keeps pointing to these weaknesses in Anderson's jiu jitsu game, like he's been having trouble since he's been in the UFC(which is all that's relevant since you know... fighters evolve and all). Okay, we get it... Silva got subbed by a flying heel hook in PRIDE. He trains with Nogueira, and Jacare... Jacare said Silva was able to compete with him on the ground.

 

And as far as Palhares "being crazy and trying to pull guard"... Yeah, look how that turned out for Thales Leites. He was known for having a fairly strong chin too, but after he ate a few of Anderson's jabs he changed up from trying to pull guard to just flopping on the ground and begging Silva to give him a chance for five rounds. Palhares took a few shots from Dan Henderson, but got his ass whipped fairly handily. He's really shown me nothing that would make me think he has what it takes to beat Anderson.

[ACCBiggz]

It's annoying that everyone keeps pointing to these weaknesses in Anderson's jiu jitsu game

It's HIGHLY annoying. Moreso because Anderson allows himself to be taken down because he's not concerned there at all. A lot of people still point to the Lutter fight... Lutter didn't connect on any punches from the mount, Anderson blocked them all and was never in any danger, ever. Henderson had his chance, but he did nothing from the top and wasn't so much that he got off his gameplan as much as it was that Silva caught him and that set off the series ending compliation.

 

IF the fight does hit the ground, Maia is certainly capable of catching Anderson, don't get that twisted. But it's not as if Anderson is not able to stop him or defend himself. Anderson is skilled enough to determine where he wants to fight and chooses stand-up the majority of the time.

[RingofHonorGuard]

I'm not sure what Maia can do, really. I think he has too much heart and honor to do what Thales did. I think he's still going to be really timid on his feet, and the only way the fight is going to the ground is if Silva punches/knees/kicks him to that position.

 

Maia can pull subs ridiculously fast, but not sure how he'll do with a guy like Silva hitting him... Silva's the guy that rocked Dan Henderson by bouncing his head off the mat like a basketball in their fight before choking him out, after all. How many others have rocked Hendo that bad? Yeah, none.

[Daffanka]

Honestly dude I don't expect anyone to beat Anderson ever. I'm saying the person who's got the best chance of doing so is one who can exploit Anderson's only weakness, his wrestling. Apart from actually closing the distance without getting hit Anderson's bottom game is, as you said, very good, and one elbow can be enough for a fight ending cut. There's a million pitfalls because it's Anderson but stylistically a guy like Sonnen has the best shot.

 

And no, I'm not saying Anderson's BJJ is his weakness in any way. I'm saying that someone who does incredible risky moves is going to have a better chance of winning on account of a conventional BJJ strategy not doing much else than stalling because Anderson's good on the ground.

[brashleyholland]

Honestly dude I don't expect anyone to beat Anderson ever. I'm saying the person who's got the best chance of doing so is one who can exploit Anderson's only weakness, his wrestling. Apart from actually closing the distance without getting hit Anderson's bottom game is, as you said, very good, and one elbow can be enough for a fight ending cut. There's a million pitfalls because it's Anderson but stylistically a guy like Sonnen has the best shot.

 

And no, I'm not saying Anderson's BJJ is his weakness in any way. I'm saying that someone who does incredible risky moves is going to have a better chance of winning on account of a conventional BJJ strategy not doing much else than stalling because Anderson's good on the ground.

 

In my mind, the only way Anderson gets beaten by one of the current crop of middleweights is if he gets caught on the feet. It's an old cliche, but with these little gloves, anyone can get knocked out. We're all human after all. Except Minowa Man, who is clearly a superhero.

 

I used to think that a great wrestler like Mo Lawal, Henderson or Sonnen would have the best chance of beating him by holding him down and working him over for five rounds...but following the Hendo fight my mind was changed. I don't think there is a wrestler in MMA (near Anderson's weight) that could pull off that strategy for 25 minutes.

 

If Silva loses anytime soon, I think it's going to be a wild punch from a Belfort or someone of that ilk. I don't think there is anyone who can outstrike him, so actually landing that punch is another matter entirely. I hate to say it but right now, it might have to be a 'lucky' punch that topples the Spider.

[jesterx7769]

Unfortunately I'm not excited for 112. Sure Penn and Silva are nice to see but they are two fighters who used to be aggressive and devastating become very conservative as they try to prolong their legacy. Sure Silva annhiliated Griffin but it was a non-title fight, lets see what he does when it is a title fight, if Maia makes it more than 10 seconds after the Nate fight. Their lack of credible opponents makes it MUCH less exciting for me as well, I dont want to watch the two best in their weight class only chance to lose be a "lucky" punch, I want actual competition. Also, Hughes/Renzo? Seriously? Renzo is 43 and we all know Hughes is past is prime so it doesn't excite me, its kind of like the Hopkins/Jones boxing match that just happened.

 

Also the undercard doesn't excite me, its clearly one of those lets get the TUF guys out there and while their matches could be good of course, there isn't anything that pops out to me as "I WANT to see that!"

[Tag01]

In my mind, the only way Anderson gets beaten by one of the current crop of middleweights is if he gets caught on the feet. It's an old cliche, but with these little gloves, anyone can get knocked out. We're all human after all. Except Minowa Man, who is clearly a superhero.

 

I used to think that a great wrestler like Mo Lawal, Henderson or Sonnen would have the best chance of beating him by holding him down and working him over for five rounds...but following the Hendo fight my mind was changed. I don't think there is a wrestler in MMA (near Anderson's weight) that could pull off that strategy for 25 minutes.

 

If Silva loses anytime soon, I think it's going to be a wild punch from a Belfort or someone of that ilk. I don't think there is anyone who can outstrike him, so actually landing that punch is another matter entirely. I hate to say it but right now, it might have to be a 'lucky' punch that topples the Spider.

 

You're probably right. I don't think there's a wrestler that can hold him down that long and keep from getting subbed in the process, especially not five rounds. And I don't see Chonnen pounding Silva out either. But it would take a one in a million shot for someone like Belfort to get within range of Silva and land clean without getting smoked in the process.

[jesterx7769]

On Silva, someone I see beating him could be Wanderlei, sure he isn't in his prime and only has 1 win at 185 but he has remained aggressive and I think it might take someone like him who wouldn't be intimidated or scared to charge forward to connect that one time sending Anderson backpeddling to the cage where he gets unloaded on. Could he get KTFO instead? Of course, but sitting back against a counter puncher doesn't work either.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Unfortunately I'm not excited for 112. Sure Penn and Silva are nice to see but they are two fighters who used to be aggressive and devastating become very conservative as they try to prolong their legacy. Sure Silva annhiliated Griffin but it was a non-title fight, lets see what he does when it is a title fight, if Maia makes it more than 10 seconds after the Nate fight. Their lack of credible opponents makes it MUCH less exciting for me as well, I dont want to watch the two best in their weight class only chance to lose be a "lucky" punch, I want actual competition. Also, Hughes/Renzo? Seriously? Renzo is 43 and we all know Hughes is past is prime so it doesn't excite me, its kind of like the Hopkins/Jones boxing match that just happened.

 

Also the undercard doesn't excite me, its clearly one of those lets get the TUF guys out there and while their matches could be good of course, there isn't anything that pops out to me as "I WANT to see that!"

 

If Hughes/Renzo doesn't excite you, then you're missing the point. Hughes thoroughly dominated Royce, who had the biggest name of the Gracie's. It was just a buildup fight for Hughes. Renzo is widely regarded as the most complete Gracie, and he's got the most MMA experience of any of them. It's an intriguing fight for the story alone. Renzo is finally in the UFC and he's looking for some revenge. Good story, fun to follow, and it'll be a lot closer than people expect. Neither are going anywhere in the division, and it's stupid to allow 20-something studs to beat a withering Hughes. Hughes is still a draw, but he needs to be fighting guys of his level with moderate names(IE: Renzo)

 

If you don't want to order it, that's cool. But Edgar/Penn is going to be fireworks. Penn will win it most likely, but Edgar isn't going to be walked over. And the Maia fight is win/win for the UFC. If Silva comes out and blows Maia up like a landmine, then the UFC can roll their hype machine p4p#1 again, and if Maia pulls the upset, what more needs to be said, he beat Anderson. Good fights in my view. Plus it's coming from a region they've never been to before.

[Daffanka]

Unfortunately I'm not excited for 112. Sure Penn and Silva are nice to see but they are two fighters who used to be aggressive and devastating become very conservative as they try to prolong their legacy. Sure Silva annhiliated Griffin but it was a non-title fight, lets see what he does when it is a title fight, if Maia makes it more than 10 seconds after the Nate fight. Their lack of credible opponents makes it MUCH less exciting for me as well, I dont want to watch the two best in their weight class only chance to lose be a "lucky" punch, I want actual competition. Also, Hughes/Renzo? Seriously? Renzo is 43 and we all know Hughes is past is prime so it doesn't excite me, its kind of like the Hopkins/Jones boxing match that just happened.

 

Also the undercard doesn't excite me, its clearly one of those lets get the TUF guys out there and while their matches could be good of course, there isn't anything that pops out to me as "I WANT to see that!"

 

I'm kind of excited about Edgar - Penn. Edgar's a guy who's demonstrated an amazing ability at changing his game and picking up on weaknesses, he's comfortable with being an underdog and I think some of his technical points can give Penn problems.

 

When he lost to Maynard I think he realized that he's never going to reach the top with just wrestling so he branched out and we saw the results in his fights with Sherk. He was outwrestled in the first round against Matt Veach so he switched his game and knocked him down in the second. When you're dealing with a guy who is probably the best LW in the world just based on talent never mind when he's actually in shape I think these sort of unmeasurable quantities are important.

 

There's that and that I think his footwork can give Penn some problems. Penn's stance is very flatfooted while Edgar moves in all four directions. If he can mix it up with leg kicks he could hurt Penn and win a decision.

 

Watching Renzo get decisioned by Hughes will hurt though.

 

On Silva, someone I see beating him could be Wanderlei, sure he isn't in his prime and only has 1 win at 185 but he has remained aggressive and I think it might take someone like him who wouldn't be intimidated or scared to charge forward to connect that one time sending Anderson backpeddling to the cage where he gets unloaded on. Could he get KTFO instead? Of course, but sitting back against a counter puncher doesn't work either.

 

Anderson - Wanderlei would look like the Forrest fight except it'd go a bit longer because Wanderlei wouldn't quit and run out the cage crying. Even in his prime Wanderlei would have gotten crushed by the current Anderson.

 

Chael Sonnen, unofficial UFC middleweight wrestling champion of my heart, will prove you all wrong when he takes that belt!

[Tag01]

If Hughes/Renzo doesn't excite you, then you're missing the point. Hughes thoroughly dominated Royce, who had the biggest name of the Gracie's. It was just a buildup fight for Hughes. Renzo is widely regarded as the most complete Gracie, and he's got the most MMA experience of any of them. It's an intriguing fight for the story alone. Renzo is finally in the UFC and he's looking for some revenge. Good story, fun to follow, and it'll be a lot closer than people expect. Neither are going anywhere in the division, and it's stupid to allow 20-something studs to beat a withering Hughes. Hughes is still a draw, but he needs to be fighting guys of his level with moderate names(IE: Renzo)

 

If you don't want to order it, that's cool. But Edgar/Penn is going to be fireworks. Penn will win it most likely, but Edgar isn't going to be walked over. And the Maia fight is win/win for the UFC. If Silva comes out and blows Maia up like a landmine, then the UFC can roll their hype machine p4p#1 again, and if Maia pulls the upset, what more needs to be said, he beat Anderson. Good fights in my view. Plus it's coming from a region they've never been to before.

 

Yea I'm pumped. Granted, I think Hughes will roll through Renzo but it's smart match making I think. I'm definitely interested. And I think Penn and Silva will win in lopsided fashion, but I'm still pumped.

[RingofHonorGuard]

I would rather see Gustafson vs. Davis... Tired of Kendall Grove, and he's pretty much only there because he trains with Penn. I hope Munoz wrecks him though. I totally forgot Terry Etim was fighting on this card, and was even more pumped when I saw he was fight dos Anjos. That's going to be a WAR, mark my words.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Yea I'm pumped. Granted, I think Hughes will roll through Renzo but it's smart match making I think. I'm definitely interested. And I think Penn and Silva will win in lopsided fashion, but I'm still pumped.

 

Not sure... Renzo is always game, and he trains with some great fighters, so it's not like he's not staying with the current. I think the fight will end up a lot like Hughes/Lytle, with the difference being Renzo will probably try to finish more from the bottom. I wanna see Hughes win, because I think it sets up a compelling matchup between Hughes and Renzo's protege Ricardo Almeida. That's an amazing fight

[ACCBiggz]

Not sure... Renzo is always game, and he trains with some great fighters, so it's not like he's not staying with the current. I think the fight will end up a lot like Hughes/Lytle, with the difference being Renzo will probably try to finish more from the bottom. I wanna see Hughes win, because I think it sets up a compelling matchup between Hughes and Renzo's protege Ricardo Almeida. That's an amazing fight

 

It's my guess that if he wins the fight we would see Penn vs. Hughes III to determine the series. Penn has talked openly about possibly doing the same as Anderson Silva by remaining the Lightweight Champion and taking big Welterweight fights, and he isn't in title contention right now. I could see Penn vs. Hughes III, followed by a title defense against Florian/Maynard winner, and then potentially a Welterweight title shot. IF he continues to win.

 

But, there really is no reason not to do the fight if both win. Penn has effectively cleared out the division, the series is split, and neither are in a position to challenge for the 170 belt.

[RingofHonorGuard]

It's my guess that if he wins the fight we would see Penn vs. Hughes III to determine the series. Penn has talked openly about possibly doing the same as Anderson Silva by remaining the Lightweight Champion and taking big Welterweight fights, and he isn't in title contention right now. I could see Penn vs. Hughes III, followed by a title defense against Florian/Maynard winner, and then potentially a Welterweight title shot. IF he continues to win.

 

But, there really is no reason not to do the fight if both win. Penn has effectively cleared out the division, the series is split, and neither are in a position to challenge for the 170 belt.

 

I would totally be receptive to a Hughes/Penn Rubbermatch. That'd be some big dollars for the UFC. I think if Penn moves up to 170, it will be a permanent move this time and he'll start training for it accordingly, not just winging it like he did before. His strength and conditioning is in the right place now, and I kinda wanna see him face 2-3 WW before another title shot... He's the best of his division, no doubt but still unproven in the Welterweights, title win or not. He's 0-2 to St. Pierre, so unless St. Pierre moves up it would be really silly for them to gift him another title shot until he gets some real wins at Welterweight.

 

I just don't think Penn has anything for GSP. The size difference is just too much, and GSP is so great everywhere... His lack of risk taking will just allow him to hold Penn down again and beat on him.

 

EDIT: I hadn't really heard anything about Penn saying he wanted to stay in the lightweight division. I could see him doing that though, and I'd be cool with it... as long as the lightweight title got defended regularly.. That division has too many fighters for the belt to not be defended, and there are lots of guys who could benefit from Penn just moving up and letting the spotlight go on someone else. That division keeps the attention of people better than any other. I've had casual fans over to my house to watch the PPV and anytime a lightweight fight was going they were most excited. That says a lot. Penn needs to get serious about welterweight or don't even think about it.

[ACCBiggz]

I would totally be receptive to a Hughes/Penn Rubbermatch. That'd be some big dollars for the UFC. I think if Penn moves up to 170, it will be a permanent move this time and he'll start training for it accordingly, not just winging it like he did before. His strength and conditioning is in the right place now, and I kinda wanna see him face 2-3 WW before another title shot... He's the best of his division, no doubt but still unproven in the Welterweights, title win or not. He's 0-2 to St. Pierre, so unless St. Pierre moves up it would be really silly for them to gift him another title shot until he gets some real wins at Welterweight.

 

I just don't think Penn has anything for GSP. The size difference is just too much, and GSP is so great everywhere... His lack of risk taking will just allow him to hold Penn down again and beat on him.

 

EDIT: I hadn't really heard anything about Penn saying he wanted to stay in the lightweight division. I could see him doing that though, and I'd be cool with it... as long as the lightweight title got defended regularly.. That division has too many fighters for the belt to not be defended, and there are lots of guys who could benefit from Penn just moving up and letting the spotlight go on someone else. That division keeps the attention of people better than any other. I've had casual fans over to my house to watch the PPV and anytime a lightweight fight was going they were most excited. That says a lot. Penn needs to get serious about welterweight or don't even think about it.

There are two important pieces here in this quote:

"If everything goes well on April 10, I definitely would consider moving up to 170."

 

"If I do make that move I’m going to move slow. I’m not going to try to rush anything. Maybe I would think about it more as testing the waters. I’d talk to Dana and see if he would want me to vacate the belt, but maybe try do something like Anderson (Silva) is doing, test the waters, see how everything is going and see how everything plays out."

 

"There’s some top contenders in the welterweight division, of course there is a champion, and there’s other people. There’s Matt Hughes. There’s a bunch of different fights out there. That’s what this whole thing is about is about, putting on the biggest and the greatest fights in history."

And I think what BJ wants to do is best. Test the waters while being Lightweight champion, if it goes well then he can vacate the belt. Which is why Penn/Hughes III would work excellent in that regard. Because if he vacates the belt and moves up then loses - meh.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Thanks, I missed that somehow. I agree that would be the smart move for him. But at the same time it's not really like his legacy would take a big hit to vacate the belt, and leave behind a division he's laid to waste. There's nothing there for him... it'll just get to the point that he's being beaten because he's just too old to keep up with the young guys... and that will have wasted some very good potential matches at welterweight.

 

The only fight I'm interested in with Penn at lightweight currently would be Gray Maynard, if Aldo signed for a super fight, or if UFC signed Melendez... A lot of people will say Aoki but that fight doesn't interest me at all... Aoki couldn't handle the power of Penn or his boxing. Outside of those fights, which I believe Penn would win all three, I just wanna see him fight against someone that will challenge him, and it's been fairly well proven that welterweight is where that's happening.

[Tag01]

It's my guess that if he wins the fight we would see Penn vs. Hughes III to determine the series. Penn has talked openly about possibly doing the same as Anderson Silva by remaining the Lightweight Champion and taking big Welterweight fights, and he isn't in title contention right now. I could see Penn vs. Hughes III, followed by a title defense against Florian/Maynard winner, and then potentially a Welterweight title shot. IF he continues to win.

 

But, there really is no reason not to do the fight if both win. Penn has effectively cleared out the division, the series is split, and neither are in a position to challenge for the 170 belt.

 

I could see that, it would probably be the natural progression. Penn Hughes III would be huge, it would make time for Florian/Maynard, and then BJ has another legit contender waiting at 155. If he wins both of those fights, it is probably time to make another 170 run. But there is so much talent at 155 I wouldn't be upset if BJ does some big fights at 170 but still defends the 155 title when good challengers develop.

 

And I second the notion that Etim-Dos Anjos is going to be awesome.

[Daffanka]

Pretty sure if BJ moves up he's going to do it permanently. Anyway:

 

We now have the general layout for the upcoming demo for UFC Undisputed 2010. There will be four fighters featured, all light heavyweights. Mauricio “Shogun” Rua, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evans and Quinton “Rampage” Jackson will be available to use. The demo will offer both a simple exhibition mode and a limited tournament mode. More details on the modes are said to be coming soon.

 

As to a release date a specific one has not been set, but the goal has been to get it out about a month before the game’s release. Last year with UFC 2009 the demo hit a little over a month in advance. It is encouraging to see that THQ is keeping the same demo strategy that worked so well to generate interest and excitement last year rather than changing it up because the circumstances are now different. I’m not sure they would want it to come out the week of the NFL Draft as it would be overshadowed a bit. Instead the last week of April looks prime for the demo. (http://www.pastapadre.com/2010/04/06/ufc-undisputed-2010-demo-details)

[RingofHonorGuard]

 

And I second the notion that Etim-Dos Anjos is going to be awesome.

 

I think that will be Fight of the Night. It's two hungry lightweights, always exciting. dos Anjos has some really sick and unorthodox submissions. I hope we get to see some of that showcased and some really good scrambles.

[Tag01]

UFC 114 card is out, and is amazing.

 

Rampage-Rashad

Griffin-Lil Nog

Duffee-Russow

 

Two fights with huge names, and the first real test for Duffee who could be the next rising star in a suprisingly deep heavyweight division. Plus John Hathaway takes his step up against Diego, and Luiz Cane vs. Cyrille Diabate. Super pumped for the entire card.

[CQI13]

If you had to set up a ranking system, starting from scratch, how would you set it up? After that, how would you determine what win is worth more (how would you differentiate between 2 or more fighters with identical records)?