The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[Daffanka]

He has imrproved, but not by much. His got a lot of punching power in his right hand, and his a lot more willing to finish than his friend, Jon Fitch.

 

He's also been fighting significantly worse fighters than Fitch and couldn't finish Daley who's pretty bad off his back.

 

He's got better KO power than Fitch (though worse technique) and his power double is much better (but he's worse at setting it up or chaining into new techniques, in particular against the fence where Fitch excels.)

[ampulator]

He's also been fighting significantly worse fighters than Fitch and couldn't finish Daley who's pretty bad off his back.

 

He's got better KO power than Fitch (though worse technique) and his power double is much better (but he's worse at setting it up or chaining into new techniques, in particular against the fence where Fitch excels.)

 

I agree with all your points. But Fitch's problem isn't his inability to finish fights, it's his ultra-safe style is really, really bad for viewing. If people complain about GSP, they are going to tear Fitch apart as champion.

 

I think Fitch is the overall better fighter. But he hasn't really improved. He's great in a division where most of the top fighters can't beat his great discipline, good wrestling, and decent BJJ.

 

But I want when he came up against a well-rounded fighter, he got tooled bad. The only fighter has gotten tooled worse is Koscheck.

 

But other than BJ Penn (maybe), only Jake Shields and GSP can probably beat him. The others? Not really. He can wrestle down or at least, use a good game plan to win a decision.

[jesterx7769]

I actually think Fitch beats Shields. I like the GSP/Shields from a selling aspect but I've watched each Shields fight since the Daley fight and never really been impressed. The Hendo fight was good for him but he was just about KO'd in round 1 and lets be real here, its a 40 year old Hendo he beat that struggled to cut down to 185.

 

I remember watching the Daley fight before I knew who either one really was thinking "Man why hasn't he submitted the british guy yet?" I just really don't see what he would bring to the table that would beat Fitch. Wrestling? Fitch or even. Striking? Fitch using his striking quite effectively. Submit him? Possibly, but for a Gracie black belt Shields submission ability is far from impressive.

 

The problem with Fitch is he doesn't really go for the finish at all. In 13 UFC victories he only has 4 finishes. And none of those are impressive unlike GSPs.Also he has somewhat slapped Dana in the face about not finishing or fighting Kos, while GSP apologizes for not finishing.

 

While GSP is getting a rep for being a lack of a finiser he is alot more active and does alot more damage. Kos? Broken orbital bone that doctor wanted to stop until Herb stepped in. Hardy? CONSTANT submission attempts, people really don't give him (or Hardy) credit for that. Alves? He tore/injured his groin after 2nd round I believe (maybe 3rd) so he grinded it out. BJ Penn? Forced him to quit. Serra? The most brutal ground knee's I've seen to stop it. but look at his overall UFC career, he has 8 finishes in 15 appearances, a pretty good percentage.

[Zoloftjunkie]

http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/12/14/live-mma-coming-to-mtv2-with-new-bellator-deal/

 

Guess this is a good deal? Atleast I wont miss shows due to football games running over or the likes.

[ampulator]

I actually think Fitch beats Shields. I like the GSP/Shields from a selling aspect but I've watched each Shields fight since the Daley fight and never really been impressed. The Hendo fight was good for him but he was just about KO'd in round 1 and lets be real here, its a 40 year old Hendo he beat that struggled to cut down to 185.

 

I remember watching the Daley fight before I knew who either one really was thinking "Man why hasn't he submitted the british guy yet?" I just really don't see what he would bring to the table that would beat Fitch. Wrestling? Fitch or even. Striking? Fitch using his striking quite effectively. Submit him? Possibly, but for a Gracie black belt Shields submission ability is far from impressive.

 

The problem with Fitch is he doesn't really go for the finish at all. In 13 UFC victories he only has 4 finishes. And none of those are impressive unlike GSPs.Also he has somewhat slapped Dana in the face about not finishing or fighting Kos, while GSP apologizes for not finishing.

 

While GSP is getting a rep for being a lack of a finiser he is alot more active and does alot more damage. Kos? Broken orbital bone that doctor wanted to stop until Herb stepped in. Hardy? CONSTANT submission attempts, people really don't give him (or Hardy) credit for that. Alves? He tore/injured his groin after 2nd round I believe (maybe 3rd) so he grinded it out. BJ Penn? Forced him to quit. Serra? The most brutal ground knee's I've seen to stop it. but look at his overall UFC career, he has 8 finishes in 15 appearances, a pretty good percentage.

How do you see Fitch beating Shields? It would be a close fight, but Shields has way better BJJ, and comparable wrestling and gameplanning. The only thing Fitch would have an obvious advantage over would be reach and height, and he's not that much taller than Shields. Shields BJJ expertise lies in a passing and positioning. Combined with his wrestling and gameplanning, this makes him a dangerous opponent from any opponent that wants to take risks.

 

In a past mixed grappling match, Shields beat Fitch. I don't see Fitch's striking being that much better than Shields, but if there is one guy where Fitch is actually better than in striking, it's Shields.

[Daffanka]

How do you see Fitch beating Shields? It would be a close fight, but Shields has way better BJJ, and comparable wrestling and gameplanning. The only thing Fitch would have an obvious advantage over would be reach and height, and he's not that much taller than Shields. Shields BJJ expertise lies in a passing and positioning. Combined with his wrestling and gameplanning, this makes him a dangerous opponent from any opponent that wants to take risks.

 

In a past mixed grappling match, Shields beat Fitch. I don't see Fitch's striking being that much better than Shields, but if there is one guy where Fitch is actually better than in striking, it's Shields.

 

Shields has atrocious stand up and not at all comparable wrestling. His penetration step is awful, he can't chain off into other techniques and his double leg consists of him trying to bear hug guys to the floor. He had severe problems getting Daley and Henderson to the floor. His grappling style is entirely top control oriented so if Fitch got on top of him he wouldn't get up.

 

Jake Shields was very lucky they decided to put him with one of the worst wrestling and game planning guys at 170 for his title shot. He's not a top guy any more than someone like Hardy is.

 

e: How do I see Fitch beating Shields? Beating him up everywhere and not getting taken down a single time.

[ampulator]

Shields has atrocious stand up and not at all comparable wrestling. His penetration step is awful, he can't chain off into other techniques and his double leg consists of him trying to bear hug guys to the floor. He had severe problems getting Daley and Henderson to the floor. His grappling style is entirely top control oriented so if Fitch got on top of him he wouldn't get up.

 

Jake Shields was very lucky they decided to put him with one of the worst wrestling and game planning guys at 170 for his title shot. He's not a top guy any more than someone like Hardy is.

 

e: How do I see Fitch beating Shields? Beating him up everywhere and not getting taken down a single time.

Those are fair points. Touche. But in any case, it's all pointless now. GSP has pretty cleared out the WW division. At this point, they are going to have to bring in guys that are clearly not top notch to face him, and I doubt they will go that route.

 

I mean, I doubt Dana is letting GSP face Fitch or Penn again. GSP beat both badly. Dana seems desperate to keep at WW, though. GSP is even less inclined.

 

It is a testament to his ability that he cleared out such a stacked division. Even Silva has at least a couple of match ups left.

[Daffanka]

Those are fair points. Touche. But in any case, it's all pointless now. GSP has pretty cleared out the WW division. At this point, they are going to have to bring in guys that are clearly not top notch to face him, and I doubt they will go that route.

 

I mean, I doubt Dana is letting GSP face Fitch or Penn again. GSP beat both badly. Dana seems desperate to keep at WW, though. GSP is even less inclined.

 

It is a testament to his ability that he cleared out such a stacked division. Even Silva has at least a couple of match ups left.

 

Yep, it pretty much is pointless. GSP is such a fantastic fighter and the guy is only 28 years old. I think at this point it's obvious to everyone but Shields that the division is cleared out.

 

If GSP moves up against Anderson it's going to be interesting. I still think GSP would win but there's no one at WW with anything resembling Anderson's firepower and it'll be the biggest guy GSP's ever fought.

[ampulator]

By the way, what happened to Joe Stevenson? He had decent record until three or four years ago.

[brashleyholland]

Ultimate Brazil 2 is going down next summer in Rio. Time for me to invest in some sun cream and an obnoxious flowery shirt.

 

The card is supposedly going to be stacked with Brazilians...My money is on the winner of Silva/Belfort vs Okami, plus Wand, Big Nog, Little Nog and Aldo. Possibly even Shogun if he's fit - but I'd assume that he'd be needed for a big Vegas date against Rampage.

 

They'll do a great gate with a bunch of names that aren't exactly relevant, plus you get a middleweight and featherweight title match for PPV. Everyone is a winner.

[brashleyholland]

By the way, what happened to Joe Stevenson? He had decent record until three or four years ago.

 

Stevenson is a guy who beefed his record up in the early days of modern MMA - there were enough guys around for a decent fighter to beat, but not so many decent fighters to beat them.

 

I've never really rated the guy that much to be honest - and he's constantly proved me right. Here's a guy who lost his first fight after winning TUF, back in the days where TUF winners were being wrapped in cotton wool and fed guys like Elvis Sinosic and, well, Josh Neer.

 

He's a talented grappler who just cant put it together against top guys, and I don't think he'll ever be anything more than that. But that's ok, not everyone can be.

[The Shape]

Apparently Wand and Sonnen aren't the next coaches but they're gonna be announced on Friday or something, same press conference as the brazil thing.

[ampulator]

Stevenson is a guy who beefed his record up in the early days of modern MMA - there were enough guys around for a decent fighter to beat, but not so many decent fighters to beat them.

 

I've never really rated the guy that much to be honest - and he's constantly proved me right. Here's a guy who lost his first fight after winning TUF, back in the days where TUF winners were being wrapped in cotton wool and fed guys like Elvis Sinosic and, well, Josh Neer.

 

He's a talented grappler who just cant put it together against top guys, and I don't think he'll ever be anything more than that. But that's ok, not everyone can be.

Danzig's punch was nice, though. Proves technique is more important than speed or power.

[Daffanka]

Danzig's punch was nice, though. Proves technique is more important than speed or power.

 

It's pretty easy to knock people out when they're literally jumping into your punches. Both of Stevenson's feet were off the ground when that one landed.

 

Also the last WEC is on tomorrow and it's going to rule mega hard.

 

Ben Henderson who always had good fights and owns vs. Anthony Pettis who throws a lot of wacky kicks but is actually really well rounded for the WEC lightweight title, winner gets a UFC title show.

 

Dominick "Dance" Cruz vs. Scotty "Spotty" Jorgensen. Cruz is pretty good and really fast but his footwork is uncoordinated and his head movement is off. Jorgensen's good at catching guys if he bothers to jab and he's a monster wrestler with a really good guillotine. Winner is last WEC bantamweight champ and inaugural UFC bantamweight champion.

 

Also Cerrone vs. Horodecki and Shalorus vs. PALASZEWSKI, both of which should be really fun. Plenty of good undercard fights as well.

 

Some predictions to make fun of after it's over:

Henderson by submission.

Jorgensen by submission.

Cerrone by TKO.

Palaszewski by decision.

[jesterx7769]

Apparently Wand and Sonnen aren't the next coaches but they're gonna be announced on Friday or something, same press conference as the brazil thing.

 

I know alot of people even on here were saying Sonnen and I read the recent article earlier this week that said he would have to apply for a different license to be a coach (much like a cornerman's) which could cause problems with his CSAC since once his suspension was down to six everyone (including myself) was just like "oh okay now he can fight after the show" with giving much thought to if he would be licensed to actually coach the show, too bad as I might have actually watched, this past season was the first season I didn't watch a single episode of, too real worldy now, at least before they showed you more training and fight stuff and had more qualified fighters

[brashleyholland]

I know alot of people even on here were saying Sonnen and I read the recent article earlier this week that said he would have to apply for a different license to be a coach (much like a cornerman's) which could cause problems with his CSAC since once his suspension was down to six everyone (including myself) was just like "oh okay now he can fight after the show" with giving much thought to if he would be licensed to actually coach the show, too bad as I might have actually watched, this past season was the first season I didn't watch a single episode of, too real worldy now, at least before they showed you more training and fight stuff and had more qualified fighters

 

It's nothing to do with him being licensed to coach or be on the show - there is no such licence. The problem that arose was that he wouldn't be able to stand in the corner of any of his fighters without what's called a 'Second's Licence'. Explaining that away would be a PR nightmare, and not something Spike or the UFC wanted to spend time addressing, apparently.

 

Sonnen and Wand was the preferred option though, I know that for a fact. Bisping vs Sonnen was a close second as well.

[The Shape]

Couldn't they just have him...not be in their corner for the fights? =D Shame really. If they have 135ers coaching middleweights it'll just look stupid and really go about introducing them the wrong way. Faber/Torres or whoever and a bantam+featherweight show would probably mean a higher level of talent than normal and a good build, with this though it seems like they're stuck. Guess they could switch the weight class up, though if they've done tryouts how feasible is that?

[brashleyholland]

Couldn't they just have him...not be in their corner for the fights? =D Shame really. If they have 135ers coaching middleweights it'll just look stupid and really go about introducing them the wrong way. Faber/Torres or whoever and a bantam+featherweight show would probably mean a higher level of talent than normal and a good build, with this though it seems like they're stuck. Guess they could switch the weight class up, though if they've done tryouts how feasible is that?

 

They won't be doing another casting call before filming - and if they do, then all credit to them! :-p

 

I really, really don't want to see Faber/Torres coaching middleweights/welterweights. Nothing to do with the aesthetics, just for the fact that they would be missing an opportunity to really showcase 135/145 talent. Plus, with the peanuts that most 135/145 guys make elsewhere, they could seriously stack a TUF season and use it as a showcase tournament rather than the usual reality show garbage.

 

The issue with Sonnen just not being in the corner is that they'd have to explain that on the show. It's a lot more complicated than people often realise - for example, Sonnen wouldn't be allowed in the vicinity of a fighter who is having their hands wrapped.

 

It's a lot of little things, but remember that Sonnen wasn't absolved of anything when he had his suspension cut. He's a drugs cheat, for all intents and purposes, and the UFC wants to explain that on camera about as much as Sonnen want's to talk about it.

 

Plus you know that either Wand or Bisping would rub it in his face 24/7 during filming :-p Which is ironic, considering

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Daffanka" data-cite="Daffanka" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's pretty easy to knock people out when they're literally jumping into your punches. Both of Stevenson's feet were off the ground when that one landed.</div></blockquote><p> That maybe true, but it's hard to punch a moving target accurately, especially if you are moving back yourself.</p>

[brashleyholland]

<p>So Royce Gracie is thinking about fighting on UFC Rio next summer. </p><p> </p><p>

So who does he fight? </p><p> </p><p>

Personally, I have no interest in seeing Gracie fight anyone who isn't a similar age/in a similar position career-wise. Trouble is, I can't think who that would be these days. </p><p> </p><p>

Here's a pipe dream - Gracie vs Sakuraba 3? One in Japan, one on neutral ground, one in Brazil - seems fair <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[TheKenwyne]

So Royce Gracie is thinking about fighting on UFC Rio next summer.

 

So who does he fight?

 

Personally, I have no interest in seeing Gracie fight anyone who isn't a similar age/in a similar position career-wise. Trouble is, I can't think who that would be these days.

 

Here's a pipe dream - Gracie vs Sakuraba 3? One in Japan, one on neutral ground, one in Brazil - seems fair

 

Renzo? Or failing the feud between Renzo and everyone else in the Gracie family being that deep, one of Renzo's students - Matt Serra, Ricardo Almeida...?

[ampulator]

So Royce Gracie is thinking about fighting on UFC Rio next summer.

 

So who does he fight?

 

Personally, I have no interest in seeing Gracie fight anyone who isn't a similar age/in a similar position career-wise. Trouble is, I can't think who that would be these days.

 

Here's a pipe dream - Gracie vs Sakuraba 3? One in Japan, one on neutral ground, one in Brazil - seems fair

There isn't really someone. Sakuraba is working for DREAM, Shamrock is in EXTREME decline, Dan Severn has been fighting in the minor leagues for a while now, so... no one.

 

I think Renzo Gracie beat Ken Shamrock now, sadly enough. Hell, some would say the last time was good was in 2000, or maybe even in 1996 (!). Also, I'm surprised how little Royce Gracie fought, especially considering his importance and legacy.

[TheKenwyne]

Another rumour to circulate - Gareth A Davies has apparently tweeted (I can't see it) that Strikeforce are planning on bringing the Welterweight title clash between Nate Diaz and Paul Daley to the UK.

 

Source: http://www.fullmount.co.uk/index.php/mma-news/1-latest-news/865-nick-diaz-vs-paul-daley-for-strikeforce-welterweight-title-in-the-uk

[brashleyholland]

Another rumour to circulate - Gareth A Davies has apparently tweeted (I can't see it) that Strikeforce are planning on bringing the Welterweight title clash between Nate Diaz and Paul Daley to the UK.

 

Source: http://www.fullmount.co.uk/index.php/mma-news/1-latest-news/865-nick-diaz-vs-paul-daley-for-strikeforce-welterweight-title-in-the-uk

 

The tweet happened literally minutes after Daley KO'd Smith a couple of weeks back. My guess was that this was nothing more than wild speculation. God knows I've heard enough of it; with everyone and his wife hovering around town on a fight week, lots of stuff gets said.

 

Just looking at it logically, I can't think of a single benefit from SF's point of view with regards to running a show in the UK. Daley isn't a proven draw at the gate. Would Strikeforce be able to convince Showtime to foot the bill for a tape delayed show?

 

Who knows though, they've done stupider stuff! :-p

[brashleyholland]

There isn't really someone. Sakuraba is working for DREAM, Shamrock is in EXTREME decline, Dan Severn has been fighting in the minor leagues for a while now, so... no one.

 

 

I don't think Ken will ever work for the UFC again in any aspect, considering how they parted company last time

 

The Sakuraba situation is not so black and white though. Firstly, there's a very real possibility that Dream wont exist next summer. Secondly, even if they do, they certainly don't have the kind of clout to stop someone like Sakuraba taking a one-off fight in the UFC.

 

Meh, it's only my stupid pipe dream though. Sakuraba has about as much chance of passing a UFC medical as I do of beating Butterbean in a hotdog eating contest.