The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[ampulator]

Erm, yes...I listed several. Not sure what you mean...

I mean is it's hard to tell if all these issues are related to releasing their fighters. That's what I mean. I can understand the "paying management" part, but some of the other stuff, they can be a little more flexible.

 

In fairness, both parties could have handled it more discreetly and professionally.

Fair enough, but I thought it was kickboxing show?

[brashleyholland]

I mean is it's hard to tell if all these issues are related to releasing their fighters. That's what I mean. I can understand the "paying management" part, but some of the other stuff, they can be a little more flexible.

 

You can't, because it sets a president that Zuffa don't want to set. You pay for one group of managers/agents to fly out and stay in a nice hotel, next month you're paying for five lots of managers to fly and stay at a nice hotel. Then the next guy wants his brother flown out. Then the next guy wants his nutritionist flown out. And so on.

 

Remember Affliction flying an entourage of 30 people over from Russia for Affliction Trilogy? That's what you end up with. Only the UFC have 300 fighters to deal with, not 24 like Affliction did.

 

I'm not sure what else there is to be flexible on. Zuffa will never be flexible when it comes to competition, never. They won't do business with a company that is competing against them. If TapouT opened a fight promotion and signed Fedor, Overeem, Kimbo etc tomorrow, Zuffa would drop them like a bad habit.

 

They don't want guys fighting elsewhere. If Reem knocks out everyone in the Strikeforce GP, then comes to the UFC and knocks out their champ before getting smashed up in K-1 by an unknown (to UFC fans) like Saki or Ghita, it cheapens their title. Not to mention the time off he'd need to train and recover, or if he got injured. They can't and won't be flexible on that.

 

 

 

Fair enough, but I thought it was kickboxing show?

 

They do a bit of both.

[ampulator]

You can't, because it sets a president that Zuffa don't want to set. You pay for one group of managers/agents to fly out and stay in a nice hotel, next month you're paying for five lots of managers to fly and stay at a nice hotel. Then the next guy wants his brother flown out. Then the next guy wants his nutritionist flown out. And so on.

 

I think I was being vague on what I mean. What I mean is, they should honor the current contracts, even if they don't like it. That's what I meant on flexibility. If GG is going to sue, does that mean Zuffa failed to meet their contracted obligations?

[jesterx7769]

The UFC does not need a reason to cut their fighters. Just look at how many guys get cut before their contract is done. However what BH (and other news sites now) have said is this.

 

- UFC offered september fight to Overeem

- They declined due to injury

- UFC cuts him, saying because he turned down a fight

- his camp is saying thats a breach of contract as he is injured. Which they probably have grounds on or they wouldn't pull that card.

- The rest are justified cuts, the fighters lost. Kinda hard to get around that legally when they cut people all the time.

 

Honestly I feel bad for Sergei right now. he has been fighting really good his last couple fights before SF, and had a chance to cash in for some big bucks (potentially. At least bigger than before). Now it seems if he loses his next fight hes out.

 

UFC will get a lot of heat but I don't blame them, just like with the Fedor negotiations. I remember M-1 wanted to do the co-promotion have have the UFC sign X number of guys. That might be how it works in Japan (which is going down hill, so great business plan there) but not in the US. So you have to adjust and those management teams didn't want to and know if their fighters sign exclusive deals then the mngmt isn't getting the money they want so they just get off negotiations.

 

I know guys like Overeem and Fedor make lots of money overseas but I don't think they really get how much money they could make with the UFC behind them. Half a mill is nice for the WGP but thats nothing if the UFC got behind him.

 

As for the story, I can see Couture being that type of guy who is laid back until you try something, then he just snaps like F You you're gonna get it now. Don't know if I would describe them as a big one and small one though, cant be more than 20 lbs of difference between them out of fight, I was thinking Bas could have been one of them for some reason, or if its an old story Lee Murray.

[ampulator]

The UFC does not need a reason to cut their fighters. Just look at how many guys get cut before their contract is done. However what BH (and other news sites now) have said is this.

 

- UFC offered september fight to Overeem

- They declined due to injury

- UFC cuts him, saying because he turned down a fight

- his camp is saying thats a breach of contract as he is injured. Which they probably have grounds on or they wouldn't pull that card.

- The rest are justified cuts, the fighters lost. Kinda hard to get around that legally when they cut people all the time.

Here's the thing though, you can talk "justification" all you want, but hte bottom-line, is part of their contractual agreement? I'm not taking a side here, but this is made of what's in the contract and law. And this the questions I have. If they can't release overeem's contract because it's not in it, could they possibly in breach of contract? As for the other cuts, same question-can they actually contractually cut them? If this goes to court, we will hear the answer eventually.

[brashleyholland]

Here's the thing though, you can talk "justification" all you want, but hte bottom-line, is part of their contractual agreement? I'm not taking a side here, but this is made of what's in the contract and law. And this the questions I have. If they can't release overeem's contract because it's not in it, could they possibly in breach of contract? As for the other cuts, same question-can they actually contractually cut them? If this goes to court, we will hear the answer eventually.

 

They can cut you off a loss, no issues there at all. They can sign you to a 10-year, 30-fight deal, but if you lose your first fight they have the right to cut you.

 

They have this clause for two reasons:

 

- They use it to get rid of newcomers who get the call up but clearly aren't ready.

 

- They use it as leverage for bigger 'name' fighters or middle of the pack fighters. There is the threat of "Instead of renegotiating your contract, we'll cut you and send you away to 'get a few wins'. What we mean by that is we'll keep you out of the public eye so your worth to us has reduced by the time you come back, and we can start you on a lower rung of the payscale.

 

So no issues there with Coenen, Einemo and Otherreem.

 

It's the Alistair situation that is the issue. There are a whole host of things that the UFC can cut you for. Some of them are insane, but I'm not going to go in-depth into them because I'm not supposed to have seen the one I've seen :-p The point is, one clause allows them to cut a fighter for turning down a fight.

 

It's Golden Glory's position that they did not 'turn down a fight' but that AA was injured. The problems they have are that AA had not previously mentioned these injuries to the UFC brass, they only came up when he was about to get cut.

 

I mentioned in my original post how fighters who are hurt have to get seen by the UFC's doctor in Vegas before they're written off...this didn't happen with Overeem because he was 'on vacation' after the Werdum fight. GG released that video of him so that they could clearly document the fact that he was injured on a certain date. It's their belief that if they can do that and they do opt to take the matter to court (which is a HUGE risk for them), then they might be able to prove breach of contract on Forza LLC's (the Zuffa subsidiary that owns Strikeforce) part.

 

Couple of interesting bits about the new Zuffa promotional agreements Strikeforce fighters had to sign.

 

- If you take legal action against Zuffa, you have to do it in Nevada. Zuffa do not lose court cases in Nevada.

 

- If you take Zuffa to court and lose, you pay 100% of their legal bills. This would bankrupt most fighters. It bankrupted Ken Shamrock.

 

Both of the above are intended as deterrents against taking Zuffa to court, and the first stacks the deck in their favour if someone does.

 

Besides, a court case would kill off any chance of reconciliation between GG and Zuffa.

[brashleyholland]

As for the story, I can see Couture being that type of guy who is laid back until you try something, then he just snaps like F You you're gonna get it now. Don't know if I would describe them as a big one and small one though, cant be more than 20 lbs of difference between them out of fight, I was thinking Bas could have been one of them for some reason, or if its an old story Lee Murray.

 

Lol, I honestly couldn't think of another way to differentiate between the two...'The toothless one' and 'The one from The Expendables' might have given it away :-p

 

Heheh, if it was a Bas story something ridiculously awesome like him elbowing a runaway grizzly bear in the spleen would have happened. And if it was a Lee Murray story, someone would have been stabbed :-p

[ampulator]

- If you take legal action against Zuffa, you have to do it in Nevada. Zuffa do not lose court cases in Nevada.

 

Both of the above are intended as deterrents against taking Zuffa to court, and the first stacks the deck in their favour if someone does.

This is not a related issue, but I wonder if Zuffa is eventually going to settle their issue with the Nevada unions.

[damonster]

UFC coming back to Toronto for UFC 140, hopefully I can get tickets & it would be a good event for Hominick vs. the korean zombie.

[bigtplaystew]

That would be a sick fight, dude. I definately want to see that happen.

[damonster]

both Hominick and Korean Zombie have said on twitter they want the fight. FOTN for sure.

[Fantabulous]

As expected, Fedor will not be re-signed by Zuffa.

[bigtplaystew]

Yea... shame. I feel like there's still some good matches there UFC wants to put some of their fighters on a strikeforce card. While I feel like the excitement for a Brock/Fedor or a Cain/Fedor or a JDS/Fedor fight isn't there anymore, there's still some excellent fights for him. Big Country, rothwell, Mir, heck even another one with Cro Cop or Big Nog would probably make money for them.

[HansLanda11]

I would still pay to see a Couture vs. Fedor fight or even Chuck vs. Fedor but I think they made the right move here by releasing him. I don't feel like Fedor is as dedicated to MMA as most fighters which is a shame.

[bigtplaystew]

Well, based on BH's post it's fairly obvious why Fedor didnt get re signed. Zuffa will never pay one of those Japan and European style contracts where the whole camp gets taken care of.

[damonster]

Joe Stevenson is now cut, who is safe from this madness?

[Guest codey]

Stevenson lost four straight and isn't a big name, I'd hardly say he was ever safe.

[ampulator]

Joe Stevenson is now cut, who is safe from this madness?

...what madness are you talking about? He's been due a cut for a while. The UFC gave him a ton of chances.

 

Stevenson lost four straight and isn't a big name, I'd hardly say he was ever safe.

 

Well, I disagree here. He was pretty safe because of his status as Ultimate Fighter winner, but his losing streak is probably the straw that broke the camel's back. He's been given plenty of chances, and I think he's done.

 

In fact, if you look at how many fights and how long he has been fighting, he's decline ins't surprising. Most fighters begin to decline as early as 9 years.

[damonster]

I was saying that a lot of people are being released, alistar, fedor & now joe.

[ampulator]

I was saying that a lot of people are being released, alistar, fedor & now joe.

Alistair is one thing... Fedor being cut, and especially Joe being cut, at this point, not surprising. It's the way the UFC does business. You lose at least two row, heck even once, they can cut you. And if you lose two in row or can't string together a win streak, then you are likely cut. That's the way they do it. And I don't disagree with it, either.

[ampulator]

Time for UFC 133 predictions.

 

Main card

Welterweight bout: Mike Pyle vs. Rory MacDonald: MacDonald wins via decision.

Middleweight bout: Jorge Rivera vs. Costantinos Philippou: Rivera via decision.

Welterweight bout: Brian Ebersole vs. Dennis Hallman: Uh, Hard pick... Halman?

Middleweight bout: Vitor Belfort vs. Yoshihiro Akiyama: Belfort via KO or TKO.

Light Heavyweight bout: Rashad Evans vs. Tito Ortiz: Evans via decision.

[bigtplaystew]

Time for UFC 133 predictions.

 

Main card

Welterweight bout: Mike Pyle vs. Rory MacDonald: MacDonald wins via decision.

Middleweight bout: Jorge Rivera vs. Costantinos Philippou: Rivera via decision.

Welterweight bout: Brian Ebersole vs. Dennis Hallman: Uh, Hard pick... Halman?

Middleweight bout: Vitor Belfort vs. Yoshihiro Akiyama: Belfort via KO or TKO.

Light Heavyweight bout: Rashad Evans vs. Tito Ortiz: Evans via decision.

 

Agree across the board. A shame we couldnt have started out this way :-)

[Fantabulous]

The only two fights I care about:

 

Vitor Belfort vs. Yoshihiro Akiyama - I hope Akiyama can win but it won't be easy.

 

Rashad Evans vs. Tito Ortiz - This will be either an ugly fight for the fans (Decision win for Rashad) or an ugly fight for Tito (TKO win for Rashad). I don't think lightning is striking twice for Tito.

[jesterx7769]

Just a quick qualification as I'm surprised BH didn't say it but since a few people have mentioned it and the news sites keep saying it, Fedor wasn't "cut" like the other fighters. The Hendo fight was well known to be his last fight on his contract and they are choosing not to re-negotiate.

 

M-1 is claiming that Fedor's contract was never with SF or Zuffa (post take over) and his contract is part of M-1's larger contract with Showtime. However they tried this before right after the take over saying Fedor didn't have to fight for Zuffa (SF) anymore. They were clearly wrong there as he still fought Hendo but I imagine we will see Fedor on one of the M-1 broadcasts on Showtime if he continues to fight again aka if M-1 whips him until he does.

 

Touching the legal bit, I see no way how GG would beat Zuffa in Nevada. The UFC has their sh*t together and has for years, hence how they don't lose. The only way they could win is if they had a medical document dated before the cut and proof that they showed it to Zuffa otherwise they have nothing. I clearly doubt they did the above as otherwise Zuffa would not have been so stupid as to outright cut him. Was Zuffa sneaky about it? Sure. I'm sure they purposefully did things quick so they could document him and get him cut before GG had the chance to respond. Overeem better fight Badr Hari now in the WGP if he goes back to kick boxing otherwise he's lost my interest.

 

Predictions are pretty much the same for 133, its set up to have some exciting fights. The prelims are pretty good as well. It isn't "stacked" name wise minus the main event but I think it should be good over all.

[ampulator]

Agree across the board. A shame we couldnt have started out this way :-)

I'm not too sure on two picks: the Hallman one, I just don't know. Hallman's record isn't as good as Ebersole's, but Hallman's fought better competition. It's a toss-up. If Hallman loses, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

Also, Vitor has a tendency to fade, either mentally, physically, or both, after the first round. If Vitor doesn't finish it in the first round, and Akiyama fights smarter than normal, he'll frustrate Belfort. But that's a big "if".

 

Oh yeah, I want to mention that I wouldn't be all that surprised if Pyle wins an upset decision.

 

Predictions are pretty much the same for 133, its set up to have some exciting fights. The prelims are pretty good as well. It isn't "stacked" name wise minus the main event but I think it should be good over all.

 

I'm interested in the undercard as well, but I don't know each fighter well enough to make a prediction. Usually the undercard fights are more exciting, even if they are decisions.... because fighters are fighting for their careers, to move up, or to have an exciting fight to please Zuffa.

 

Just a quick qualification as I'm surprised BH didn't say it but since a few people have mentioned it and the news sites keep saying it, Fedor wasn't "cut" like the other fighters. The Hendo fight was well known to be his last fight on his contract and they are choosing not to re-negotiate.

M-1 is claiming that Fedor's contract was never with SF or Zuffa (post take over) and his contract is part of M-1's larger contract with Showtime. However they tried this before right after the take over saying Fedor didn't have to fight for Zuffa (SF) anymore. They were clearly wrong there as he still fought Hendo but I imagine we will see Fedor on one of the M-1 broadcasts on Showtime if he continues to fight again aka if M-1 whips him until he does.

 

To M-1, all I have to say is, "So? And?" I know they are trying to save face, but it means nothing. It means Fedor isn't going to fight anyone substantial anytime soon. He's lost a lot of his relevancy.

Touching the legal bit, I see no way how GG would beat Zuffa in Nevada. The UFC has their sh*t together and has for years, hence how they don't lose. The only way they could win is if they had a medical document dated before the cut and proof that they showed it to Zuffa otherwise they have nothing. I clearly doubt they did the above as otherwise Zuffa would not have been so stupid as to outright cut him. Was Zuffa sneaky about it? Sure. I'm sure they purposefully did things quick so they could document him and get him cut before GG had the chance to respond. Overeem better fight Badr Hari now in the WGP if he goes back to kick boxing otherwise he's lost my interest.

 

I don't think GG winning the court case is the long term issue at hand-the bigger issue is, even if they win the court case, they are screwed. Why? Because Zuffa will 99% likely never do business with them again. So they have weigh doing a risky court case in foreign territory and alienating a potential source of revenue. It's a no-win situation for them, and they know it.