The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

If fedor isn't in it for the money then why is such a honest and religious man in bed with the likes of m1?

 

I've only met him once myself and I didn't really speak to him outside of 'hello' because A) He was drunk and B) My Russian is limited to "Da", "Nostrovia" and "Stolichnaya" :-p But, I do know a couple of guys who shared a house with him when he was training at Golden Glory, and the truth is (without being disrespectful) that he is a very, very simple man. He's not educated, doesn't understand business...he went from literally growing up in poverty (real poverty - his entire family lived in one room of an appartment shared with four others), living on bread and potatoes, to the army, then the national Judo and Sambo teams, through to being picked up as a pro.

 

At the time when he turned pro, he was essentially an employee of the state (as all Russian athletes were), and the state was in such a mess at the time (thanks to Yeltsin) that he was still essentially still in poverty. He was forced to go pro, and someone within the Govt hooked his coach up with Vadim Finkelstien through his brother, who is a big concert promoter in Russia.

 

Point being, he's always been 'looked after'. From his coach, to the Army, to sport, all he's done is work, while others have taken care of the logistics. Think about it; the guy has no internet, can't read or speak English...If I was his manager I could tell him *anything*.

 

It happens alot in football/soccer. Players are poached from education at 15/16 and do nothing but train and play football. They have managers, agents and club staff that take care of everything. I remember seeing an interview with Rio Ferdinand where he said that he didn't know how to change a tire, change a fuse or fit a washer to a leaky tap because they have a phone number given to them by their club that they call and someone takes care of it.

 

It's a similar situation with Fedor, only he doesn't have the means/language/desire to know any better. In all fairness, they've secured a comfortable future for his family, which is all he ever wanted.

 

Reason I put Reem over Fedor is just cause I think Reem is really hitting his stride now in mma while I see Fedor on the downslide.

 

That's just "what-if's" though. He's beat Buentello, Lee Tae-Hyun, Hunt, Goodridge, Tony Sylvester, James Thompson, Fujita and Rogers at HW. No matter what you think of Fedor's recent record, it's better than that.

 

To me Dos Santos has had more quality fighters under his belt. It is hard for me to say Cain beat the real Nog ya know.

 

I see your point. You could say the same thing about JDS and Cro Cop though. Personally I'd put wins over Kongo, Rothwell and Nog over Cro Cop, Yvel and Gonzaga right now. The more I think about it, the less difference I see though.

 

Who else would you put at ten? Do you think Big foot or Nelson would beat Barnett?

 

Doesn't matter if I think they would or not, I try to avoid hypotheticals as much as is possible. The way I see it, Josh dropped out when he pee'd hot. He needs to beat a top ten guy to get back in. Even without the steriod stuff, he's only fought once since Jan 2009, against Mighty Mo. I did have him pretty high (top five) before the drug test thing though, probably too high.

[brashleyholland]

I just remembered that Ivan Salaverry did something similar but this is slightly different from what I remember him doing.

 

RNC position with the body triangle, grab the opponent around the waist and arch backwards. It causes the separation of the lower spine according to Mezger.

 

I know the one Salaverry did...wouldn't that compress the spine? I was thinking of these....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP4q7fWpAYg

 

[Zoloftjunkie]

Got a question for you people. Have any of you played the MMA ProFighter game on facebook? If so is it worth creating facebook account just to play? Saw it on your websites banner Brash and the game looks fun but I would like some opinions on it before I start messing with facebook. It would literally be the only reason I would make an account .

 

@Brash You gave your top six but what about your 7-10 spots. Very curious to see yours. I see you opinion as pro. Where mine is just as a casual fan. And damn you if your not making me open my eyes about Fedor the man. I can see my main dislikes are mostley from his surroundings and the evil m1. Hard to hate a man who just wants to make sure his family is cared for. But I still feel like he isn't giving it all. Lets see if this loss re-lit that fire he had.

[Daffanka]

I am a lover of all things Overeem but it feels pretty silly to rank him over Fedor when his best opponent the last two years has been Rogers.

 

Ideally he'll fight Werdum next. When he was at 220 and a skeletal man he dropped him and literally held him in mid air in the clinch. The man is King Kong with double underhooks, hits like a truck and now he's fueled by vengeance and reinforced with horse meat.

[brashleyholland]

Got a question for you people. Have any of you played the MMA ProFighter game on facebook? If so is it worth creating facebook account just to play? Saw it on your websites banner Brash and the game looks fun but I would like some opinions on it before I start messing with facebook. It would literally be the only reason I would make an account .

 

Erm....I heartily endorse that event or product!

 

@Brash You gave your top six but what about your 7-10 spots.

 

 

As it stands, these are the ones I'm in the process of writing up for the site.

 

1 Lesnar

2 Carwin

3 Velasquez

4 Dos Santos

5 Werdum

6 Fedor

7 Overeem

8 Mir

9 Nogueira

10 'Bigfoot' Silva

 

Assuming Lesnar wins:

 

1 Lesnar

2 Velasquez

3 Carwin

4 JDS

5 Werdum

6 Fedor

7 Overeem

8 Mir

9 Nogueira

10 Silva

 

Notes: Lesnar in the top spot after beating Carwin and Fedor losing.

- JDS above Werdum due to recent win over him (well, recent in MMA terms)

- Werdum above Fedor after beating him

- Overeem in 7th purely because 8 and 9 have two very decisive losses from their last few fights

- Silva at 10 almost by default after beating AA. He'll get bumped if Nelson beats JDS and enters the top 10.

[Dustin]

I'd put Gonzaga at #10. He was owning Carwin and doing very well against JDS (both top four in your book) only to get caught. A win over Arlovski is not enough to get you into the top ten IMO. He hasn't had a decent victory since Werdum in 2007 (Roy was not a decent victory, but a gift).

[brashleyholland]

I'd put Gonzaga at #10. He was owning Carwin and doing very well against JDS (both top four in your book) only to get caught. A win over Arlovski is not enough to get you into the top ten IMO. He hasn't had a decent victory since Werdum in 2007 (Roy was not a decent victory, but a gift).

 

He got knocked out by both of them in the first round. You can't move up based on losses.

 

He didn't really get into gear at all against JDS. I just watched that fight funnily enough, he landed one good low kick and got a takedown which Dos Santos popped up from before he could establish control. He was winning the round against Carwin, but he got put to sleep the first time Shane landed anything significant. You don't get into my top ten by getting stopped by practically every top ten fighter you face. Since April 2007 he's beaten Justin McCully, Josh Hendricks and Chris Tuchscherer (in a fight that really shouldn't have been allowed to continue after the nut shot).

 

AA was just hanging in the top 10 before the Silva fight IMO (which really speaks for the lack of depth at HW). Silva beat him and took his spot.

[Dustin]

I didn't say he should move up. He was already on most lists from what I remember before both fights. IMO losing competitive or fights that you were dominating against higher ranked fighters than yourself should mean you get to keep your spot over a guy who beat a guy that shouldn't have been there at all.

 

Example: If #6 beats #7, why should #7 lose his spot to #8?

 

Again, this is only my opinion. Please don't write five paragraphs about why I am wrong until I deserve it .

[brashleyholland]

I didn't say he should move up. He was already on most lists from what I remember before both fights. IMO losing competitive or fights that you were dominating against higher ranked fighters than yourself should mean you get to keep your spot over a guy who beat a guy that shouldn't have been there at all.

 

 

 

 

I see your point. I'm just a firm believer in 'winning your way in'. I think he managed that in 2007 when he beat a still-hot Cro Cop, dropped out with back to back stoppage losses to Couture and Werdum, and hasn't beaten anyone in the top ten since. I certainly didn't have him in my top ten prior to the JDS fight, can't remember with the Carwin one. I just cant justify ranking someone who is 3-4 (all stoppages) in the top ten above the other contenders.

 

Example: If #6 beats #7, why should #7 lose his spot to #8?

 

That's always tricky. If someone loses a close decision, I try to avoid moving them down. I didn't move Shogun down after his 1st fight with Machida, for example. I treat any stoppage or submission the same though. If I beat you up for 24 mins and 59 seconds, then you knock me out with the final punch of the fight, you still found a way to beat me.

 

There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way of doing it though; it's largely down to opinion.

[RingofHonorGuard]

I didn't say he should move up. He was already on most lists from what I remember before both fights. IMO losing competitive or fights that you were dominating against higher ranked fighters than yourself should mean you get to keep your spot over a guy who beat a guy that shouldn't have been there at all.

 

Example: If #6 beats #7, why should #7 lose his spot to #8?

 

Again, this is only my opinion. Please don't write five paragraphs about why I am wrong until I deserve it .

 

It amazes me that people still ride the Gonzaga train.... The dude is good when's he's on, and utter crap when he's off. And if I remember correctly Gonzaga hasn't been ranked in months by any site of substance. His one big win is over Cro Cop, that's it. He built his career kicking Cro Cop's head and superman punching a can that he was in the process of going to one of the most brutally boring decisions with until that happened. So if you believe he deserves to be top ten by beating some top 50 heavyweights, and getting absolutely smashed by two contenders then sure, throw him in

 

But people with your opinion are a lot of the reason we'll never have legit rankings in MMA, because people try to make it too much about "what they've done overall" and their popularity... It just doesn't work for rankings, sorry. Gonzaga is a top 20 heavyweight at best, somewhere between the the #12-15 mark.

 

Not bashing your opinion, just simply stating that in my own you don't get into the top ten by "being competitive" for a few minutes and then getting your brains mushed by punches... Don't care how you knocked Cro Cop out...

 

 

 

SO WAIT...

 

Does Anybody care about Tyson Griffin stepping in and replacing Joe Stevenson to fight Takanori Gomi? That fight is going to be ten times as awesome as Joe Stevenson/Gomi... Griffin never has a bad fight, Stevenson can be lackluster at times. Griffin/Gomi could be fight of the year if the "Super" Gomi shows up.

[Dustin]

It amazes me that people still ride the Gonzaga train.... The dude is good when's he's on, and utter crap when he's off. And if I remember correctly Gonzaga hasn't been ranked in months by any site of substance. His one big win is over Cro Cop, that's it. He built his career kicking Cro Cop's head and superman punching a can that he was in the process of going to one of the most brutally boring decisions with until that happened. So if you believe he deserves to be top ten by beating some top 50 heavyweights, and getting absolutely smashed by two contenders then sure, throw him in

 

But people with your opinion are a lot of the reason we'll never have legit rankings in MMA, because people try to make it too much about "what they've done overall" and their popularity... It just doesn't work for rankings, sorry. Gonzaga is a top 20 heavyweight at best, somewhere between the the #12-15 mark.

 

Not bashing your opinion, just simply stating that in my own you don't get into the top ten by "being competitive" for a few minutes and then getting your brains mushed by punches... Don't care how you knocked Cro Cop out...

 

 

 

SO WAIT...

 

Does Anybody care about Tyson Griffin stepping in and replacing Joe Stevenson to fight Takanori Gomi? That fight is going to be ten times as awesome as Joe Stevenson/Gomi... Griffin never has a bad fight, Stevenson can be lackluster at times. Griffin/Gomi could be fight of the year if the "Super" Gomi shows up.

 

Okay, let's play that game then.

 

Why is Mir on the list? The dude is good when he has an opponent to make him look that way, and utter crap otherwise. He built a career out of beating a sick and shell of his former self Nog, subbing a very green Lesnar, and breaking the arm of the worst champion any sport has ever seen.

 

It amazes me that people jumped on the Carwin train… The dude is seriously not even that good. All he did was beat a bunch of cans and the two absolutely terrible fighters that you and I pointed out. One of them by flash KO after getting blasted.

 

Let's talk about JDS now. Werdum obviously had no idea who he was and didn't take him seriously, proven by the fact that he came into the bout grossly overweight. From there he got a can, an old Cro Cop, another can and the absolutely horrendous Gonzaga.

 

What about Velasquez? All he did worth mentioning was beat a shell of his former self Nog and that was after he had already been knocked out by the aforementioned Mir.

 

Brock Lesnar? Hype job Mir and old man Couture? Yawn.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Okay, let's play that game then.

 

Why is Mir on the list? The dude is good when he has an opponent to make him look that way, and utter crap otherwise. He built a career out of beating a sick and shell of his former self Nog, subbing a very green Lesnar, and breaking the arm of the worst champion any sport has ever seen.[/Quote]

 

... Okay well you just punched yourself into defeat with this argument... So Gonzaga deserves to be at #10 with a win over Cro Cop.... But Mir who has a win over Brock Lesnar who is the current dominant champ, has a win over Tim Sylvia who is the promotions #2 most dominant champ(don't tell me how weak the division was, it was WEAK everywhere in the heavys then), and he beat Nogueira, however shell he was he was still ranked and beating the opponents to stay ranked. So your argument here is dead in the water... If Gonzaga deserves to be #10 with a win over Cro Cop, then you can't call out Frank Mir when he's been more relevant than him ten times over. I'd see your argument if he was ranked like #3.

 

It amazes me that people jumped on the Carwin train… The dude is seriously not even that good. All he did was beat a bunch of cans and the two absolutely terrible fighters that you and I pointed out. One of them by flash KO after getting blasted.[/Quote]

 

Not even that good but he was able to SHOVE a brazilian jiu jitsu wizard off of him like he was nothing and knock him out SECONDS later with one punch... Oh did I mention that BJJ wizard is the guy you want ranked at #10? Oh, okay then. Dude works a full time job as an engineer on top of that, is undefeated, and has made everyone look awful that he's faced. He dominated Mir just as badly as Lesnar did the second time around, and arguably landed much more powerful strikes to finish. So don't act like Carwin doesn't have a chance this weekend, because if he touches Lesnar's jaw it's over. But more than likely Lesnar is going to maul him by TKO in the first.

 

Let's talk about JDS now. Werdum obviously had no idea who he was and didn't take him seriously, proven by the fact that he came into the bout grossly overweight. From there he got a can, an old Cro Cop, another can and the absolutely horrendous Gonzaga.[/Quote]

 

Hey, guess what? JDS busted up Werdum, a couple of cans, Gonzaga, and Cro Cop... It's pretty apparent at this point it wasn't a fluke. You talk about how Gonzaga should be #10 ranked, and then call him absolutely horrendous. Are you a troll?

 

What about Velasquez? All he did worth mentioning was beat a shell of his former self Nog and that was after he had already been knocked out by the aforementioned Mir.[/Quote]

 

Wow... Just wow.

 

Brock Lesnar? Hype job Mir and old man Couture? Yawn.

 

You're such a quality poster, sir.

[Dustin]

LOL, how old are you? You seriously don't know what that was?

[brashleyholland]

Okay, let's play that game then.

 

Why is Mir on the list? The dude is good when he has an opponent to make him look that way, and utter crap otherwise. He built a career out of beating a sick and shell of his former self Nog, subbing a very green Lesnar, and breaking the arm of the worst champion any sport has ever seen.

 

It amazes me that people jumped on the Carwin train… The dude is seriously not even that good. All he did was beat a bunch of cans and the two absolutely terrible fighters that you and I pointed out. One of them by flash KO after getting blasted.

 

Let's talk about JDS now. Werdum obviously had no idea who he was and didn't take him seriously, proven by the fact that he came into the bout grossly overweight. From there he got a can, an old Cro Cop, another can and the absolutely horrendous Gonzaga.

 

What about Velasquez? All he did worth mentioning was beat a shell of his former self Nog and that was after he had already been knocked out by the aforementioned Mir.

 

Brock Lesnar? Hype job Mir and old man Couture? Yawn.

 

So...everyone sucks? :-p

[brashleyholland]

Does Anybody care about Tyson Griffin stepping in and replacing Joe Stevenson to fight Takanori Gomi? That fight is going to be ten times as awesome as Joe Stevenson/Gomi... Griffin never has a bad fight, Stevenson can be lackluster at times. Griffin/Gomi could be fight of the year if the "Super" Gomi shows up.

 

I'm struggling to get excited by anything Gomi-related at the moment. I'd talked myself into thinking that he might have refocused prior to the Florian fight, but watching Kenny neutralise him so effectively pretty much sealed the deal.

 

It's a good match-up though, certainly has more potential than the original bout. Hopefully Gomi will bring everything he has and make a war out of it.

[RingofHonorGuard]

I'm struggling to get excited by anything Gomi-related at the moment. I'd talked myself into thinking that he might have refocused prior to the Florian fight, but watching Kenny neutralise him so effectively pretty much sealed the deal.

 

It's a good match-up though, certainly has more potential than the original bout. Hopefully Gomi will bring everything he has and make a war out of it.

 

I guess I haven't really given up on him yet, and losing to Florian isn't really an indicator in my books. He's looked lackluster in the past, I will give you that, but he's always wanted to fight in the UFC at some stage of his career. Florian gets a lot of flack for being a TUF'er, but the guy has really become polished in every aspect... He just doesn't have the athleticism to be a long-term champion if he ever gets the belt.

 

I think a care-free Gomi is the best Gomi... He's had too much pressure put on him by fans and critics because he came out of the gate so fast and went to the sky at such a rate that he's still trying to put everything together and live up to this legend a lot of fans have made for him.

[Daffanka]

I'm struggling to get excited by anything Gomi-related at the moment. I'd talked myself into thinking that he might have refocused prior to the Florian fight, but watching Kenny neutralise him so effectively pretty much sealed the deal.

 

It's a good match-up though, certainly has more potential than the original bout. Hopefully Gomi will bring everything he has and make a war out of it.

 

Gomi is a lot of fun to watch when he cares and when he's not fighting guys who could take him down in a heartbeat. This fight has neither.

 

He's going to get outwrestled for three rounds (or possibly less depending on when he gasses) and the forums will cry out LAY AND PRAY, AMERICAN JUDGING = FAVORS WRESTLERS and JAPANESE MMA IS DEAD.

 

Kawajiri will be watching from the future, scraping bits of atomized Aoki off his fists.

 

Seriously though bring in Kawajiri into the UFC, he'd be a top 10 LW. Probably wouldn't get further than that since he doesn't have a strong base (though he's really, really good when he puts his entire game together) and starts winging haymakers when he gets punched in the face but it'd be nice to see him get some recognition.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Seriously though bring in Kawajiri into the UFC, he'd be a top 10 LW. Probably wouldn't get further than that since he doesn't have a strong base (though he's really, really good when he puts his entire game together) and starts winging haymakers when he gets punched in the face but it'd be nice to see him get some recognition.

 

The bold is why I think Kawajiri would be a title contender in the division. Look at Melvin Guillard, the dude just wings haymakers and he knocks people senseless.. As deep as the lightweight division is, there's a reason there's always different ants running up the hill... No defense, so haymakers do big business in the LW division, and there just aren't enough lightweights with KO power.

 

Kawajiri's wrestling is good enough to negate a lot of the heap in the UFC, and I'd give him more than a 50/50 on any night with any of the UFC's top, aside from maybe Penn.

[Dustin]

Let's say a fighter makes $100,000 to fight and another $100,000 to win just like it is now. Wouldn't it be cool to throw in another $100,000 for a sub or KO?

 

Base Pay

Win Bonus

Finish Bonus

 

This would give the fighters more incentive to finish IMO.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Is Chuck Liddell's entrance from UFC 43 the absolute tackiest entrance of all time? I forgot it all about it, and watched the show earlier... What an ugly entrance. Anyone seen it and able to show me a more ridiculous one?

[brashleyholland]

Is Chuck Liddell's entrance from UFC 43 the absolute tackiest entrance of all time? I forgot it all about it, and watched the show earlier... What an ugly entrance. Anyone seen it and able to show me a more ridiculous one?

 

That was the one with the Mask talking head, right? That was pretty awful if memory serves, and waaay too long. I can't think of a tackier one, but the 'Koscheck Rap' from UFC has to be up there in awfulness. Note, that's a rap about Kos, not Kos rapping.

[brashleyholland]

Let's say a fighter makes $100,000 to fight and another $100,000 to win just like it is now. Wouldn't it be cool to throw in another $100,000 for a sub or KO?

 

Base Pay

Win Bonus

Finish Bonus

 

This would give the fighters more incentive to finish IMO.

 

Already happens. The infamous 'Locker Room Bonuses'. If you finish, or fight your ass off, you get taken care of.

 

Keith Jardine made $14,000 ($7k/$7k) for beating Chuck Liddell, who made $500,000 disclosed, plus a cut of PPV's. Jardine was taken care of in the locker room to the tune of six-figures.

[RingofHonorGuard]

That was the one with the Mask talking head, right? That was pretty awful if memory serves, and waaay too long. I can't think of a tackier one, but the 'Koscheck Rap' from UFC has to be up there in awfulness. Note, that's a rap about Kos, not Kos rapping.

 

Oh yes, it had Mask talking in this insane voice and making zany faces that probably inspired Johnny Depp and his creepy pedophile smile in the Wonka remake. It's the creepiest thing you'll ever see, and you're on a plane ride of suspended belief... Then all of a sudden you hear this god awful Nu-Metal/Rap hybrid atrocity start blaring over the top of a cackling Mask, and then a rapper starts chirping about Blood in veins and blood baths, and anything related to coldness and ice man... It's just... it makes me happy they don't still do it because their thumb just wasn't on the pulse back then. I felt like Koko B Ware might come down the ramp at anytime with Frankie.

[Daffanka]

The bold is why I think Kawajiri would be a title contender in the division. Look at Melvin Guillard, the dude just wings haymakers and he knocks people senseless.. As deep as the lightweight division is, there's a reason there's always different ants running up the hill... No defense, so haymakers do big business in the LW division, and there just aren't enough lightweights with KO power.

 

Kawajiri's wrestling is good enough to negate a lot of the heap in the UFC, and I'd give him more than a 50/50 on any night with any of the UFC's top, aside from maybe Penn.

 

I dunno, Melvin isn't really top 10 material. The LW division is the straight punchiest with BJ, Edgar, Florian, Dunham, Sotiropilouasdduina_::2 and most of those guys have really good defensive wrestling.

 

Also Maynard would run over him because he's enormous and the best LW wrestler.

 

This is all in the future though, let's enjoy him literally Crushing Aoki.

[Antithesis]

Well, it wasn't so much that Fedor didn't know what to do, but it's the fact that Werdum was literally applying submissions at the same time, so when Fedor was adjusting to escape the armbar Fab was trying, Fab would slip the choke more into permission, and vice versa.

 

I just think Fedor extremely underestimated Werdum on the ground because he's done so well against them in the past. Werdum is creative though, he's definitely in that Demian Maia field of jiu jitsu. You don't win Abu Dahbi twice by sucking on the ground, that's for sure... But I never in a zillion years saw Fedor getting choked out, not to mention getting armbarred in the process....

 

Its a style/cultural thing. Many Sambo practitioners just don't have much respect for the other grappling arts.

 

Thats not a knock against Sambo, a lot of BJJ guys don't think much of Sambo/Catch wrestling either.