The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[Fantabulous]

I don't think Diego winning was in any way a robbery, but it was close enough that people who feel strongly that Kampmann should have won will see it as such. I gave the first round to Kampmann and rounds two and three to Diego. I think Diego was more aggressive, pushed the fight more and for all the damage Kampmann did to Diego, it didn't feel like at any point Diego was in danger of being stopped. Conversely, there were two points in the fight where Kampmann was clearly knocked a little loopy and if Diego had been able to keep up the barrage then it Kampmann would have been in real danger.

[Zoloftjunkie]

Rogan really gets on my tits with his lavishing of praise on BJJ guys, or anyone who was once in the same room as Eddie Bravo. That in itself made it sweet to see the Tavares/Roller KO.

 

Main event was great. Plenty of arguments to score it both ways. Personally I had Kampmann by virtue of effective striking and grappling, no problem at all with it going either way though.

 

Saturday is going to be an great day for fights. M-1 Challenge free on M-1Global.com to kick things off, then Bellator, then Strikeforce. It's Showtime on Sunday to cap of a quality week of fights.

 

Only problem is that Bellator overlaps with Strikeforce by an hour, so I'm gonna have to have a lappy hooked up to another TV for a bit of simulcast action, which will be annoying. Dumb move by MTV.

 

Thanks for reminding me about Bellator I completly forgot about it coming on this weekend. Didn't know about the M-1 show I will give a try also. I am going to order the It's Showtime show for my first time with them. Watched some of the fights they have put on on youtube and am really looking forward to their show the most this weekend.

[Daffanka]

Honestly I thought Kampmann clearly won 30-27 just by outlanding Diego significantly but both guys got paid big bucks and are going to be booked like they won so I don't think it really matters in the long run.

 

Feijao - Henderson should be a cool fight but other than Manhoef - Kennedy the undercard doesn't buzz me at all. I'll probably be watching Bellator until the main event, possibly switching over to Strikeforce for as long as it takes for Kennedy to shoot a double leg and either get Manhoef to the floor or get knocked out.

[Daffanka]

Double posting to say that the It's Showtime internet PPV tomorrow is going to be incredible. It's my favorite kickboxing promotion by virtue of being really clever at booking fun fights even if they're not between the most skilled guys and €10 for a great stream means it's always worth it.

 

This card though, is insane. Main event between two of the breakout heavyweight stars the past few years, Daniel Ghita and Hesdy Gerges, should be really good. You could close your eyes and just listen to the noise their kicks are going to make.

 

In the co-main Andy Souwer is fighting. Other than Buakaw, Masato and maybe Kraus he's been the premier 70kg kickboxer in the world and though he seems to have lost a step recently with some losses to mediocre competition he alway brings it. He's fighting this guy who just knocked out prospect Nicky Holzken in like five seconds.

 

Plus, Artur Kyshenko vs. Gago Drago should be buckets of fun and the best kickboxer you've never heard of, Robin van Roosmalen, is having his coming out party against Chahid Oulad El Hadj who was in that incredible war with Mike Zambidis.

 

Ten euros for 2 hours of world class kickboxers punching and kicking each other. Doesn't get much better than that.

[Fantabulous]

--Dana White on Thursday night's post-fight show on Versus said that he believed the knee Michael Bisping threw was intentional and that Bisping is in a lot of trouble. Marc Ratner has been quoted as saying that the ref should have disqualified Bisping or at least deducted two points instead of one.

 

Dana said Bisping would be punished for his actions and has now said he thinks the knee was intentional. Call me cynical, but I have no faith in the punishment being anything more than a symbolic slap on the wrist.

[Zoloftjunkie]

Prob punish him with a fight to determine the number one contender.

 

Watched the M-1 Global today and enjoyed what I could see of the choppy stream . Also after the intermission the sound quit working for the rest of the broadcast.

 

Double posting to say that the It's Showtime internet PPV tomorrow is going to be incredible. It's my favorite kickboxing promotion by virtue of being really clever at booking fun fights even if they're not between the most skilled guys and €10 for a great stream means it's always worth it.

Got my online ticket to watch it last night Really looking forward to this show.

[ampulator]

Dana said Bisping would be punished for his actions and has now said he thinks the knee was intentional. Call me cynical, but I have no faith in the punishment being anything more than a symbolic slap on the wrist.

If he was a Lightweight from the USA or Canada, he would have been fired already. Too bad he's from England.

[justtxyank]

If he was Lightweight from the USA or Canada, he would have been fired already. Too bad he's from England.

 

Or if he were a black welterweight!

[ampulator]

Or if he were a black welterweight!

Well, Daley's situation is different. He hit AFTER the bell. It's VERY clear cut it was a violaation. Daley doesn't even dispute he did. That was a situation where Daley was 100% in violation of the rules.

 

Bisping, however, does. He's said he didn't do it intentionally and offered an explanation. It's still a possible, though fairly unbelievable, implausible, and improbable explanation, but there's always that 1% of doubt that, in fact, he didn't intentionally do it. And he still denies it. He's probably 99% did it on purpose. But there's always that 1% of reasonable doubt in his actions.

 

I for one, don't believe him. But hey, we'll see what his punishment is.

 

But you do have a point. The Middleweight division is pretty thin in terms of the sheer amount of talent they have.

[justtxyank]

Well, Daley's situation is different. He hit AFTER the bell. It's VERY clear cut it was a violaation. Daley doesn't even dispute he did. That was a situation where Daley was 100% in violation of the rules.

 

Bisping, however, does. He's said he didn't do it intentionally and offered an explanation. It's still a possible, though fairly unbelievable, implausible, and improbable explanation, but there's always that 1% of doubt that, in fact, he didn't intentionally do it. And he still denies it. He's probably 99% did it on purpose. But there's always that 1% of reasonable doubt in his actions.

 

I for one, don't believe him. But hey, we'll see what his punishment is.

 

But you do have a point. The Middleweight division is pretty thin in terms of the sheer amount of talent they have.

 

If GSP, Brock Lesnar, Wanderlei Silva, etc. anyone that is a draw on ppv did that they wouldn't have been cut.

[ampulator]

If GSP, Brock Lesnar, Wanderlei Silva, etc. anyone that is a draw on ppv did that they wouldn't have been cut.

That's a fair point, too. But GSP wouldn't intentionally knee someone, and Wanderlei is a strict professional. The dude demands and expects of himself. He has too much pride to do something like that.

 

As for Brock, I can see him doing something like this. But considering he has heavy hands, he would just GnP instead.

[Gabbo]

Made time to see the Sanchez vs Kampmann after all the good things I heard about the event as a whole.

 

I like Kampmann alot but I think Diego won that fight. Two and three to the Dream. You can say Kampmann should have won on effective striking all you like, but he did very little effective striking outside of round 1. Maybe you've been swayed by the 20 seconds at the end of the third where Kampmann was counter punching a wildly swinging Sanchez.

 

I don't know, an argument can be made either way but Kampmann got his way and kept it standing and didn't fully capitalise on it. Kinda reminds me of the furore over Edgar and Penn 1, when people made the argument Edgar out worked Penn, rather than out struck him. Meh.

 

Diego has looked awful in recent fights and really needs to work on his takedowns again. Kampmann was clearly the bigger and stronger of the two, but it didn't help that Sanchez's 170 was made up with some blubber around his gut. If you want to fight at 170 do it properly or there's no point moving divisions to garner another failed run at a title.

 

Well, Daley's situation is different. He hit AFTER the bell. It's VERY clear cut it was a violaation. Daley doesn't even dispute he did. That was a situation where Daley was 100% in violation of the rules.

 

Bisping, however, does. He's said he didn't do it intentionally and offered an explanation. It's still a possible, though fairly unbelievable, implausible, and improbable explanation, but there's always that 1% of doubt that, in fact, he didn't intentionally do it. And he still denies it. He's probably 99% did it on purpose. But there's always that 1% of reasonable doubt in his actions.

 

Not really. If Dana believes he did it intentionally he should be punished accordingly. He can't have it both ways. Stand by your convictions and all that.

[The Shape]

Not really. If Dana believes he did it intentionally he should be punished accordingly. He can't have it both ways. Stand by your convictions and all that.

 

Can't work that way, because there's standing by your convictions when they are indisputably right and standing by them when there is some, however small, room for doubt...

[Gabbo]

If there's any room for doubt don't punish him at all. If you're going to punish him because you're convinced it was intentional then normal procedures should surely apply.

[The Shape]

If there's any room for doubt don't punish him at all. If you're going to punish him because you're convinced it was intentional then normal procedures should surely apply.

 

Fair point. Though I think the spit kind of gives them leeway on this, they can say it was for that. He won't be suspended either way though surely. Just have him fight Sonnen in the UK and be done with it. Please oh please.

[Fantabulous]

Because of what Daley did is why I think he is going to be like Babalu and really is gone for good from the UFC.

 

Strikeforce was OK/good. The opener was forgettable and dull, the Manhoef fight went like almost every fight of his does; wild swings, strong kicks, and then quickly gets taken down and submitted. The women's fight was good and the main event was fine enough. A good show but, unfortunately for Strikeforce, it came two days after UFC had a fantastic TV show of their own.

[ampulator]

Because of what Daley did is why I think he is going to be like Babalu and really is gone for good from the UFC.

 

Strikeforce was OK/good. The opener was forgettable and dull, the Manhoef fight went like almost every fight of his does; wild swings, strong kicks, and then quickly gets taken down and submitted. The women's fight was good and the main event was fine enough. A good show but, unfortunately for Strikeforce, it came two days after UFC had a fantastic TV show of their own.

What Babalu did was even more inexcusable. The guy taps, AND the ref is trying pull his arms off from choking him, but he keeps going. He's continuing to choke LONG after the guy signals he's given up, AND disobeying the refereeing.

 

If there's any room for doubt don't punish him at all. If you're going to punish him because you're convinced it was intentional then normal procedures should surely apply.

While this a good point, it's not a "tit or tat" or "yes or no" situation. It's pretty close to one, but it isn't. He needs to match the correct punishment to the correct violation, taking into "other factors" into account, all things considered.

 

Here's my question to you: If he did knee him illegally AND intentionally, does Dana believe he should cut him? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If he had punched him after the bell, or choked out someone out like Babalu, this wouldn't be a question. But he didn't.

 

And he's apologetic about it, at least on face. He admits he did something wrong, even he if denies he did it intentionally. Dana needs British fighters that have personalities, but aren't total turds to work with. Bisping fits the bill.

 

I'd say throw him to a wolf, like Vitor, will KO him, or Sonnen, who will grind him out.

[Fantabulous]

Here's my question to you: If he did knee him illegally AND intentionally, does Dana believe he should cut him? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. If he had punched him after the bell, or choked out someone out like Babalu, this wouldn't be a question. But he didn't.

 

And he's apologetic about it, at least on face. He admits he did something wrong, even he if denies he did it intentionally. Dana needs British fighters that have personalities, but aren't total turds to work with. Bisping fits the bill.

 

I'd say throw him to a wolf, like Vitor, will KO him, or Sonnen, who will grind him out.

I believe the knee was deliberate and intentional and from everything I've read and heard, most people take the same view. Everyone else thinks it was an accident and I don't think I've heard of anyone who is on the fence on this.

 

Do I think that the knee in itself warrants a firing? Given what Babalu did and got fired for, I'd probably lean towards yes. However, when you add in everything else Bisping did, the spitting, the playing to the crowd like he was proud of what happened (which, to me, suggests it was an intentional act) and everything else, I would fire him. I wouldn't be happy about it because of the effect it would have on UK business, but I would still do it.

 

Bisping vs. Belfort: I think Bisping wins this one without too many troubles. All Bisping would have to do is avoid getting hit and take the fight into the second round, which I think Bisping could readily do, and Belfort would wilt. Belfort is almost like a Melvin Manhoef in that if you can avoid his strikes and take him down or extend him, then he loses heart or gases out and he's almost a sitting duck. At the very least, I see Bisping getting a decision win.

 

Bisping vs. Sonnen: First off, Bisping's head would explode before the fight even starts. He has such a thin skin that Sonnen would have Bisping ready to lynch him at the weigh-ins. Sonnen would take Bisping down, tool him, and make him tap like the bitch that he is. The fight would likely play out like Sonnen-Silva did except Bisping doesn't have the submission skills of Silva and Sonnen knows what to avoid now. I would love to see Sonnen-Bisping not just for the tooling of Bisping but to see him lose his head over Sonnnen's pre-fight hype talk.

[ampulator]

I believe the knee was deliberate and intentional and from everything I've read and heard, most people take the same view. Everyone else thinks it was an accident and I don't think I've heard of anyone who is on the fence on this.

 

Do I think that the knee in itself warrants a firing? Given what Babalu did and got fired for, I'd probably lean towards yes. However, when you add in everything else Bisping did, the spitting, the playing to the crowd like he was proud of what happened (which, to me, suggests it was an intentional act) and everything else, I would fire him. I wouldn't be happy about it because of the effect it would have on UK business, but I would still do it.

 

Bisping vs. Belfort: I think Bisping wins this one without too many troubles. All Bisping would have to do is avoid getting hit and take the fight into the second round, which I think Bisping could readily do, and Belfort would wilt. Belfort is almost like a Melvin Manhoef in that if you can avoid his strikes and take him down or extend him, then he loses heart or gases out and he's almost a sitting duck. At the very least, I see Bisping getting a decision win.

 

Bisping vs. Sonnen: First off, Bisping's head would explode before the fight even starts. He has such a thin skin that Sonnen would have Bisping ready to lynch him at the weigh-ins. Sonnen would take Bisping down, tool him, and make him tap like the bitch that he is. The fight would likely play out like Sonnen-Silva did except Bisping doesn't have the submission skills of Silva and Sonnen knows what to avoid now. I would love to see Sonnen-Bisping not just for the tooling of Bisping but to see him lose his head over Sonnnen's pre-fight hype talk.

Belfort is way better striker than Bisp;ing is, and I doubt Bisping will get out of the first round unscathed. Belfort's too fast for Bisping, and if Bisping tries to play the counter-striking game, he's going to lose. Plus, Beflort's better at the ground than he is.

 

And for the record, I did think it was intentional, but I doubt Dana is going to fire him. There's just enough doubt for him to not get a serious punishment. He needs British fighters AND middleweights. If he fires a British fighter everytime one of them acts up, he's going to be out of British fighters.

[brashleyholland]

Just to clear a couple of things up...the UFC cannot 'suspend' Bisping, or anyone else. They don't have any authority to suspend a fighter's licence. They can, of course, not offer him fights...so any 'suspension' will end exactly when they need him back in the cage.

 

They also can't cut him coming off a win. Not how the current contracts work. If they wanted to 'cut' him, they would have buy out his contract, which is a significant amount of money when you consider that his basic show purse is around $200,000.

 

Better yet, they can't even fine him in the traditional sense. Like Josh Gross said on ESPN this week, there is nothing in the current UFC fighter contracts that provides for fining a fighter after the fact. Now, most people know that a UFC fighter's pay differs significantly from the 'basic' fight/win money that is released by certain commissions. Any 'fine' handed down by the UFC would come in the form of a reduction or non-payment of additional bonuses. Which means Bisping will still take home at least $325-350,000 for his troubles.

 

Details of his 'punishment' will come out today-tomorrow-ish, btw

[The Shape]

and Sonnen knows what to avoid now.

 

Really? Now he knows?

[Anderz]

for me it doesnt matter whether the knee was intentional or not.. hes already had his punishment.. he got a point taken away.. whether people think thats an adequate punishment or not is irrelevant, from my understanding its the only punishment on offer.. if it happens during the fight, the only person who can 'punish' him is the referee.. and he did.. he docked a point and gave Rivera the option of ending the fight..

 

if he'd got the TKO win and then kneed him in the face, then yeah fire his ass.. but it was during the fight.. if it was intentional then hes an idiot, as he couldve quite easily lost a fight that shouldve been (and was) an easy win...

 

on the spitting thing.. its a stupid thing again.. and something I dont want to see in any sport.. but he does look like he spits in the direction of Rivera's cornerman, but not directly at him.. from what I saw anyway.. if he'd spat in the guys face then I wouldnt even attempt to defend it.. but as it is, ill say that if this was anyone other than Bisping, I dont think a massive deal wouldve been made of it.. just like if it was Bisping doing the same sort of videos about Rivera, it wouldve been a huge deal and Bisping wouldve got a ton of heat from every media source known to man..

 

if I was Bisping Id keep acting like a dick (within reason) as getting all this press has got to be good.. all press is good press after all.. if he gets a fight with either Belfort and Sonnen after all of this and can win, he had every right to get a title shot.. and theyre both big money fights in themselves..

 

tldr: the knee is irrelevant, the spitting was disgusting.. but all press is good press for Bisping..

[The Shape]

if I was Bisping Id keep acting like a dick (within reason) as getting all this press has got to be good.. all press is good press after all.. if he gets a fight with either Belfort and Sonnen after all of this and can win, he had every right to get a title shot.. and theyre both big money fights in themselves..

 

Indeed. Was just listening to the new ESPN UK UFC podcast and someone made an interesting point that all of this could actually work to bisping's advantage...what seemed like a no win situation where everyone would just forget about the fight if he won, instead has made him the most talked about, and most wanted, man in the division.

[ampulator]

for me it doesnt matter whether the knee was intentional or not.. hes already had his punishment.. he got a point taken away.. whether people think thats an adequate punishment or not is irrelevant, from my understanding its the only punishment on offer.. if it happens during the fight, the only person who can 'punish' him is the referee.. and he did.. he docked a point and gave Rivera the option of ending the fight..

 

if he'd got the TKO win and then kneed him in the face, then yeah fire his ass.. but it was during the fight.. if it was intentional then hes an idiot, as he couldve quite easily lost a fight that shouldve been (and was) an easy win...

 

on the spitting thing.. its a stupid thing again.. and something I dont want to see in any sport.. but he does look like he spits in the direction of Rivera's cornerman, but not directly at him.. from what I saw anyway.. if he'd spat in the guys face then I wouldnt even attempt to defend it.. but as it is, ill say that if this was anyone other than Bisping, I dont think a massive deal wouldve been made of it.. just like if it was Bisping doing the same sort of videos about Rivera, it wouldve been a huge deal and Bisping wouldve got a ton of heat from every media source known to man..

 

if I was Bisping Id keep acting like a dick (within reason) as getting all this press has got to be good.. all press is good press after all.. if he gets a fight with either Belfort and Sonnen after all of this and can win, he had every right to get a title shot.. and theyre both big money fights in themselves..

 

tldr: the knee is irrelevant, the spitting was disgusting.. but all press is good press for Bisping..

This post is so where on many levels, I don't know even know where to begin. Let's address the punishment thing first.

 

First off, footage is pretty clear (though not absolutely clear) that it looks like an intentional knee. There's enough leeway that it isn't one, but any angle of footage you do it in, it's hard to say it's not.

 

Second, just because he's already been punished, doesn't mean he can be punished more.

 

Third, to say that he can ONLY be punished by the referee is ludicrous. BH has pointed out there aren't many ways they can punish him, but there are ways they can.

 

Third, not all press is good press. Tell that all press is good to Paul Daley. Tell that to Babalu. Yeah, all press was good press.

[Anderz]

This post is so where on many levels, I don't know even know where to begin. Let's address the punishment thing first.

 

First off, footage is pretty clear (though not absolutely clear) that it looks like an intentional knee. There's enough leeway that it isn't one, but any angle of footage you do it in, it's hard to say it's not.

 

Second, just because he's already been punished, doesn't mean he can be punished more.

 

Third, to say that he can ONLY be punished by the referee is ludicrous. BH has pointed out there aren't many ways they can punish him, but there are ways they can.

 

Third, not all press is good press. Tell that all press is good to Paul Daley. Tell that to Babalu. Yeah, all press was good press.

 

Ive not seen the footage again seen watching the fight twice (live and the day after) so I may be wrong.. but from what I remember Bisping had the thai plum as Rivera got onto his knees.. went to throw a knee.. paused.. and then threw the knee.. that can be seen two ways.. either he gave it serious thought, and threw the knee intentionally.. or he knew not to throw the knee until he was up but grossly miss-timed it..

 

like I said earlier though, I dont think the knee is a major issue.. I remember when Koscheck feigned injury to an illegal knee (which missed) against Johnson at 106.. there was no uproar afterwards (well, nowhere near as big as this) and personally I think intentionally getting a point deducted from your opponent is on a similar level to getting one deducted from yourself intentionally..

 

the only reasonable punishment was the point deduction.. the UFC may withold some money from him but its highly unlikely theyll do anything more.. Id imagine theyll give him some sort of 'punishment' to make the media happy and get on with things.. Id imagine a Bisping/Sonnen fight would be big money so they wont miss the chance to pull the trigger whilst everyones talking about it..

 

the Daley and Babalu situations arent the same.. I meant that, for Bisping right now, all press is good press.. Sonnen calling him out and kicking up a massive fuss is a much better scenario than he wouldve been in had he just walked through Rivera in a uniform manner..

 

the spitting was a disgraceful act; but Bisping has made his apologies and I highly doubt he'd do it again.. and everyones made a mountain out of a molehill with the knee.. I stand by my view that if this was anybody else; we'd have all moved on by now..