ampulator Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Ive not seen the footage again seen watching the fight twice (live and the day after) so I may be wrong.. but from what I remember Bisping had the thai plum as Rivera got onto his knees.. went to throw a knee.. paused.. and then threw the knee.. that can be seen two ways.. either he gave it serious thought, and threw the knee intentionally.. or he knew not to throw the knee until he was up but grossly miss-timed it.. like I said earlier though, I dont think the knee is a major issue.. I remember when Koscheck feigned injury to an illegal knee (which missed) against Johnson at 106.. there was no uproar afterwards (well, nowhere near as big as this) and personally I think intentionally getting a point deducted from your opponent is on a similar level to getting one deducted from yourself intentionally.. That's because Koscheck pulls this crap out of his ass all the time. Rivera was CLEARLY hit on the head. Bisping doesn't even deny this. What he deny is, is that he intentionally hit it. No thinks that knee intentionally made it to his head. He also history of doing that kind of crap. Rivera doesn't. You are dodging the issue, I would even saying changing the subject. Are you implying that Rivera might have milked the knee? Because, if he did, why was he so ****ed up during the second round? That knee clearly ****ed him up. He couldn't even fight correctly after the first round. the only reasonable punishment was the point deduction.. the UFC may withold some money from him but its highly unlikely theyll do anything more.. Id imagine theyll give him some sort of 'punishment' to make the media happy and get on with things.. Id imagine a Bisping/Sonnen fight would be big money so they wont miss the chance to pull the trigger whilst everyones talking about it.. No, that's not the only reasonable punishment. You pointed out they could withold payment. That's reasonable punishment, right there. You just contradicted yourself. the Daley and Babalu situations arent the same.. I meant that, for Bisping right now, all press is good press.. Sonnen calling him out and kicking up a massive fuss is a much better scenario than he wouldve been in had he just walked through Rivera in a uniform manner.. I disagree. He said he didn't have the nerve of handling Rivera constantly making fun of him. That's Bisping has said himself. Does he really enjoy thousands of MMA fans getting on his case? That's even worse. the spitting was a disgraceful act; but Bisping has made his apologies and I highly doubt he'd do it again.. and everyones made a mountain out of a molehill with the knee.. I stand by my view that if this was anybody else; we'd have all moved on by now.. No, if it was Rivera who that did that Bisping, you bet your house I would get on his case too. Because when you do something that like that clearly affects the other fighter for the rest of the fight (and Rivera was affected for the rest of the fight, this is not easily disputed), then that means his illegal actions made it easier for him to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderz Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 That's because Koscheck pulls this crap out of his ass all the time. Rivera was CLEARLY hit on the head. Bisping doesn't even deny this. What he deny is, is that he intentionally hit it. No thinks that knee intentionally made it to his head. He also history of doing that kind of crap. Rivera doesn't. You are dodging the issue, I would even saying changing the subject. Are you implying that Rivera might have milked the knee? Because, if he did, why was he so ****ed up during the second round? That knee clearly ****ed him up. He couldn't even fight correctly after the first round. I wasnt implying that Rivera made a meal of it.. I think my point was lost a little in translation. I brought up the Koscheck incident because I feel that attempting to get your opponent a point deducted is as bad as intentionally doing something to get yourself a point deducted.. my point was that the Kos-incident was quickly swept under the carpet, and this hasnt been.. I wasnt trying to dodge the issue, I was making reference to another similar case (like everyone who has referenced Daley and Babalu).. I also think Rivera fought better after the knee, connected more with his punches and rocked Bisping.. but I wont deny that he looked wobbly and not 100% after he got up.. No, that's not the only reasonable punishment. You pointed out they could withold payment. That's reasonable punishment, right there. You just contradicted yourself. I dont see witholding money as a massive punishment really - he wont be out of pocket.. as far as I know they cant refuse to pay him his fight+win money so hell at least take home that $325k.. its a punishment, but I cant really see it affecting him in any major way.. I disagree. He said he didn't have the nerve of handling Rivera constantly making fun of him. That's Bisping has said himself. Does he really enjoy thousands of MMA fans getting on his case? That's even worse. if it means he gets a big money fight or two, im sure he'll find a way.. No, if it was Rivera who that did that Bisping, you bet your house I would get on his case too. Because when you do something that like that clearly affects the other fighter for the rest of the fight (and Rivera was affected for the rest of the fight, this is not easily disputed), then that means his illegal actions made it easier for him to win. I dont think the general media response would be the same though.. and the doctor wanted to stop the fight - Rivera chose to continue, he obviously felt like he could do.. Anyway, If the knee was intentional then I think Bisping is an idiot.. but I struggle to believe that he would risk losing the fight and throw away everything just to knee him in the face.. its an incredibly stupid thing to do.. maybe its just me.. maybe Bisping really is that stupid.. I dont know.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I wasnt implying that Rivera made a meal of it.. I think my point was lost a little in translation. I brought up the Koscheck incident because I feel that attempting to get your opponent a point deducted is as bad as intentionally doing something to get yourself a point deducted.. my point was that the Kos-incident was quickly swept under the carpet, and this hasnt been.. To be fair, I have heard a case where a fighter milked a supposed illegal move. I recall Matt Hughes saying a knee to the groin that he took during the fight against GSP was really a knee to inside of his leg, but it hurt like hell, so he sold it like a knee to the groin (it looked like a knee to groin on TV, too. But people didn't really think GSP did it intentionally). And while the knee did look like it connected, it looked like it connected barely. But the glazed and confused look like Rivera's eyes said something else. I also think Rivera fought better after the knee, connected more with his punches and rocked Bisping.. but I wont deny that he looked wobbly and not 100% after he got up.. I think it was sheer desperation more than anything else. By the second round, he was unable to dodge most of Bisping hits, and almost everything Bisping threw at him seem to hurt him. I didn't see anything that Bisping did that was significant damage in the first round, except that illegal knee. I dont see witholding money as a massive punishment really - he wont be out of pocket.. as far as I know they cant refuse to pay him his fight+win money so hell at least take home that $325k.. its a punishment, but I cant really see it affecting him in any major way.. if it means he gets a big money fight or two, im sure he'll find a way.. You'd be surprised how much "bonuses" some of these guys get. Randy Couture attempted to use his base pay as an example as how "little" money he gets (during his dispute with the UFC), and they showed their "behind-scenes" (though legal and accounted for tax-wise), payment to a guy like Randy Couture. I doubt Bisping remotes even makes that much, but considering he's UFC "top" "British" fighter, he might make pretty good money. On top of that, he might have some problem with some sponsors. For the sake of a big name fight, he loses out on some sponors? That's not a good strategy. I dont think the general media response would be the same though.. and the doctor wanted to stop the fight - Rivera chose to continue, he obviously felt like he could do.. To be fair, it wouldn't be the same.... it also actually be worse. Considering all the trash talk he did online, if Rivera did that knee, people would get his case harder, and he might not ever fight in the UFC again (he's 39, he gasses out), and as for not wanting to stop fighting.... how many fighters chose to take the DQ win? Anyway, If the knee was intentional then I think Bisping is an idiot.. but I struggle to believe that he would risk losing the fight and throw away everything just to knee him in the face.. its an incredibly stupid thing to do.. maybe its just me.. maybe Bisping really is that stupid.. I dont know.. Yes, the knee is incredibly stupid thing to do. I don't think he's stupid, though. Just too emotional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbo Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into a quote-a-thon argument but this really is a stupid point. I think intentionally getting a point deducted from your opponent is on a similar level to getting one deducted from yourself intentionally.. Moves banned purely for the safety of the fighters is now equal (or thereabouts) to poor sportmanship? Bottom line is Rivera was not going to win that fight, it was wasn't a game changer, though it was illegal. Slap on the wrists, we know what you did though we can't prove it - don't do it again. Bisping goes on to bigger and better things whilst Rivera desperately seeks his rematch whilst fighting in the undercards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Yes, the knee is incredibly stupid thing to do. I don't think he's stupid, though. Just too emotional. Which is why I am praying (almost) for him to get Sonnen next. Sonnen, especially if recent comments are any indication, would have Bisping in such a frenzy, such a complete state, that he's liable to come charging in and get KO'd in seconds. I think it's also a safe bet that Bisping doesn't have the mental state to be a top guy. He's too easy to rattle, too easy to annoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Bottom line is Rivera was not going to win that fight, it was wasn't a game changer, though it was illegal. Slap on the wrists, we know what you did though we can't prove it - don't do it again. Bisping goes on to bigger and better things whilst Rivera desperately seeks his rematch whilst fighting in the undercards. We don't know if he was going to win the fight or not. With Bisping's average to below-average chin, it's certain possible he could have KO'ed him. What is pretty clear, though, the illegal knee was probably a game-changer. Did you see Rivera when he was trying to recover? They were talking to him, and he was just looking at them. No response. The doctor was about to wave off the fight, and he finally snapped back into it. Second, look what happened in the 2nd round. The guy was groggy. That knee probably changed everything. Illegal actions, particularly INTENTIONAL illegal actions, that lead to winning, is simply unacceptable. I'm not sure Bisping will go onto bigger and better things. The guy has great cardio, but he's average to below-average on the ground, has average striking, and in every way, an average fighter. If he wasn't British, they wouldn't want him. They only want him because's British and because they need a Middleweight. Otherwise, he wouldn't even fighting in a major MMA organization. As for Rivera, he is 39 years old. He's probably a mid-level fighter now, even in the not-so-filled Middleweight division. I don't have thing against Bisping personally. He acts like twit and twat sometimes, but so do other fighters. But intentional illegal actions in the biggest MMA promotion in the world is unacceptable, no matter how angry he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 MMAJunkie reports that UFC 129 will start at 9pmET and it's expected that future PPV events will also now start one-hour earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capelli King Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Bisping v Rivera was always just going to have one result, Bisping is not particularly great, however Rivera is below average at best these days, i am not so sure why he was in the main event to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Bisping v Rivera was always just going to have one result, Bisping is not particularly great, however Rivera is below average at best these days, i am not so sure why he was in the main event to be honest I disagree. Rivera could have easily KO'ed Bisping. Bisping would have likely won, but he's been known to fight dumb. The fact he chose to stand with Henderson and circle to his POWER side is proof of this. Henderson's defensive wrestling is terrible for a wrestler of his caliber, and he's not so comfortable off his back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 The fact he chose to stand with Henderson and circle to his POWER side is proof of this. . He did the same thing against Akiyama, repeatedly. I remember Rogan quite openly wondering why he would do this when it cost him in the Henderson fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 My guess is he doesn't like getting jabbed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I decided to watch the Henderson KO of Bisping for fun and Bisping's coach told him between rounds not to circle into the power side of Henderson. I found this video of it to post for further amusement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvhj2PQvQAs but where is this feed from? The one I have didn't show it from that angle live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 And he kept doing it. To be fair, Hendo has power in both hands, but circling to his power side is just bad tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shape Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 They only want him because's British and because they need a Middleweight. Otherwise, he wouldn't even fighting in a major MMA organization. ...No. He won TUF, and there's much worse guys who won that still around. He's 8-3 in UFC and all his losses to some of the best, 2 of those by decision one of which was split. So that's just not true. As for his chin, I kinda feel like that's overhyped as well, I mean he's been dropped before, but only knocked out once in his career... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 ...No. He won TUF, and there's much worse guys who won that still around. He's 8-3 in UFC and all his losses to some of the best, 2 of those by decision one of which was split. So that's just not true. As for his chin, I kinda feel like that's overhyped as well, I mean he's been dropped before, but only knocked out once in his career... TUF doesn't mean as much as used to mean. If you are good enough fighter, they will hire you directly to the UFC. Getting into TUF just meant he wasn't good enough to get direcfly into the UFC. And as for your point only losing to the top fighters, that's also his problem - he's mostly beaten mid-level guys. The only high-level guy he's beaten is Chris Leben, but Leben is known to fight stupid. Everytime he's been given a top-level opponent, he loses. Your point on his chin is fair, but if he's not his chin, then his striking defense needs work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffanka Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 ...No. He won TUF, and there's much worse guys who won that still around. He's 8-3 in UFC and all his losses to some of the best, 2 of those by decision one of which was split. So that's just not true. As for his chin, I kinda feel like that's overhyped as well, I mean he's been dropped before, but only knocked out once in his career... By all rights he should be 7-4 by losing the Hamill fight, the split decision loss against Rashad was a clear 29-28 and his wins have mostly come against the type of guys who are no longer in the UFC - and even they gave him trouble. He's been given a lot of easy fights to build him up and he's got some huuuge weaknesses that'll stop him from ever reaching the top of the division but he's good enough to stay in the UFC I think, as a gatekeeper Zuffa will again and again try to push into title contention to fill their coffers with pounds as well as dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I agree. As long as he doesn't go on a losing streak and manages to keep some semblance of win streaks at certain points of his career, they will keep him. At least, until they have a genuine British breakout star that knows wrestling and BJJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shape Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Fair points, although TUF not meaning as much as it used to mean I don't see working against him because he was on such an early season xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Fair points, although TUF not meaning as much as it used to mean I don't see working against him because he was on such an early season xD That's not the point, though. The UFC wouldn't really need him, even if he was TUF, if he wasn't a British middleweight. They need British fighters, and they need middleweights. Sooner or later, as the UFC gains popularity in Britain, they would need to rely on British fighters less and less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbo Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 No, but your original point was that he was an average fighter not exclusively that he's only there because of the UFC needs brits. I'm not sure Bisping will go onto bigger and better things. The guy has great cardio, but he's average to below-average on the ground, has average striking, and in every way, an average fighter. If he wasn't British, they wouldn't want him. They only want him because's British and because they need a Middleweight. Otherwise, he wouldn't even fighting in a major MMA organization. Btw, earlier in the thread, Amp, I was being flippant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hey, did you erad what I wrote after that? It pretty much states what I said before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbo Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 The fact he's British has little to do with the fact he legitimately won TUF and is not an average fighter. You're portraying him as being average, despite beating a top level guy like Leben (in your words) because that's null and void apparently as Leben fights stupid and disregarding him winning TUF because 'it's not the point'. It is the point. He may not be the best in the world, but he belongs in a major MMA organisation whether you like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampulator Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 The fact he's British has little to do with the fact he legitimately won TUF and is not an average fighter. You're portraying him as being average, despite beating a top level guy like Leben (in your words) because that's null and void apparently as Leben fights stupid and disregarding him winning TUF because 'it's not the point'. It is the point. He may not be the best in the world, but he belongs in a major MMA organisation whether you like it or not. Actually, I just poited out why TUF isn't that important anymore, too. Just because he wins TUF, doesn't mean much, even to the UFC these days. He IS an average fighter. Well, I should say, maybe above average. But I don't really care if he's in the UFC or not. The thing is, he kneeing someone in the face like that, especially one that looks blatant, is one that Dana wouldn't normally tolerate, if he weren't British and a Middleweight. The UFC can have who they want... what I don't want is to see guys like bisping do stupid things that give the sport a bad name. It has less to do with ability and more to do his maturity. His reaction, even in the face of all his taunting, is ludicrious. Seriously, he got so angry he couldn't wait to knee Rivera in the head? better yet, he could have just punched Rivera several times. Wouldn't have been as effective as the illegal knee, but he stalle for a couple seconds while holding Rivera's head in the Thai Plum, and then.. BAM, kneed him in the forehead. And I didn't disregard Leben. The thing is, Leben fights stupid. Everyone knows that. When's the least time Leben used a good gameplan that maximized his abilities? Anyone that fights stupid all the time performs way worse than they should. And honestly, I don't care if he stays in the UFC or not. What I won't tolerate is his thin-skinnedness, acting a schoolchild, and trashtalking others (Henderson) without the ability to take it (Rivera). If he wants to dish it, he has to be able to take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantabulous Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/03/12/zuffa-purchases-strikeforce/ Strikeforce as we knew it is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokey al Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 UFC = MMA nearly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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