Official NBA Discussion Thread

[jwt13]

Great game last night LA played good in the last 5 minutes to get it done but Kobes is getting way to much credit for last nights win I mean Im a LA fan but really Kobe sucked last night Ron was the only real bright spot for the Laker Offense

[jwt13]

I didnt watch the game but it sounded like from a lot of people I have talked to that the refs stole this one from the Celtics. I see the FT difference was 37-17.

 

Free throw's for the series Lakers +39 at their place. Lakers +14 at Boston. Were the Lakers really this much more agreesive this series. 53 more free throw attempt in a 7 game series?

 

Not at all they were letting them play actually. The best calls of the series were last night.

[BHK1978]

I am a Pistons fan and when we played great D and won a championship everyone said it was boring. Game 7 has good D and BAD BAD BAD jump shooting but they call it a great game? I don't get it.

 

Also the Lakers fans are real classy. Nice job making your city look bad.

 

I wanted the Lakers to win cuz I hate the Celtics more. So I chose the lesser of 2 evils. Plus Kobe is the best player in the NBA right now.

 

Didn't the Detroit fans burn down the city when the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup?

 

And yeah, I was not a fan of last night's game either, (partly because the Celtics lost) because it was just a bad game. Like you said the D was good but the offensive side of the game just stunk.

 

I often wonder why I stay away from the NBA and after that game I think I got my answer.

[crownsy]

Sorry, but when both teams combine to get to triple digits (barely) going into the fourth quarter, it's not an enjoyable game. And I dislike the dunkfest that basketball has become. I couldn't watch the beginning of the game due to some other stuff I had to do for school, but when I was driving back, I envisioned a high(er) scoring game. Some guys couldn't hit open shots!

 

Some guys missed open shots, but in general both teams played thier asses off on defense and made everything tough.

 

I have no problem with a well played defensive game, as this was from both teams.

 

I guess it comes down to if you appreciate good defense. For all that people complain no defense is played in the NBA because of the high scores, I find it odd that when two teams play lock down defense, people call that a boring game.

 

I loved it, right up until the Lakers clinched it on us.

 

EDIT: also, bad jump shooting is the product of good defense, and not allowing guys a rythem.

 

I think we've all played basketball, at the pickup level at least. IT's much, much easier for shooters to get going when they get open looks and knock them down early, not fight for every basket.

 

Here nearly every shot was contested, so no shooters really ever got a rythm, thus no good jumpshooting numbers.

 

The jumpshot is inherently less reliable, thats why you concede it to protect the lane, as both teams made a concous effort to do.

[crownsy]

Not at all they were letting them play actually. The best calls of the series were last night.

 

Agree, best called games all series were 4 and 7

 

Celtics problem was two dumb fouls off turnovers early in the 4th, which let the lakers live at the line the last 5 minutes.

[jbergey_2005]

Not at all they were letting them play actually. The best calls of the series were last night.

 

Agree, best called games all series were 4 and 7

 

Celtics problem was two dumb fouls off turnovers early in the 4th, which let the lakers live at the line the last 5 minutes.

 

OK good. Thanks for the replies.

 

The people I had talked to complained that they were calling things in the final quarter that they werent calling in the 1st quarter and it was against the Celtics in most cases.

[lazorbeak]

Sorry, but when both teams combine to get to triple digits (barely) going into the fourth quarter, it's not an enjoyable game. And I dislike the dunkfest that basketball has become. I couldn't watch the beginning of the game due to some other stuff I had to do for school, but when I was driving back, I envisioned a high(er) scoring game. Some guys couldn't hit open shots!

 

Why not? Every possession matters and the game went to the wire. Who cares if it was 150-146 or 65-61? Maybe there's less opportunity to go "ooooh," the way you would at an all-star game, but this is a game that actually has drama behind it.

 

Great game, great series.

 

I didnt watch the game but it sounded like from a lot of people I have talked to that the refs stole this one from the Celtics. I see the FT difference was 37-17.

 

Free throw's for the series Lakers +39 at their place. Lakers +14 at Boston. Were the Lakers really this much more agreesive this series. 53 more free throw attempt in a 7 game series?

 

People saying the Celtics were robbed by the refs are just being bad sports. Yes, the Lakers got to the line more, but a lot of their offense is predicated on going to the basket. Kobe and Gasol were each fouled at least 10 times a game, because the Celtics lacked the physical ability to hold them back any other way. On the other hand, the only high volume free throw shooter on the Celtics was being guarded one on one by a great defensive player, so he didn't get to the line nearly as often as his season average. The Celtics are a team that aren't all that physical in the half court game on offense, so it's not surprising that they got to the line less. You don't get to the line shooting 30 jump shots a night.

 

The refs job is to not decide a game, and they definitely didn't decide this one. Boston had opportunities all game: it's not the ref's fault the Celtics were outrebounded by 13 and failed to score 20 points twice.

[GatorBait19]

I think the arguement between Lebron and Bryant is over. Bryant pushes his team to be better.

 

The real arugement now is Wade vs Bryant. Bryant for sure has the edge, but the way Wade has pushed a team with no one on it has always impressed me.

 

But right now, Kobe for sure.

[Genadi]

I think the arguement between Lebron and Bryant is over. Bryant pushes his team to be better.

 

The real arugement now is Wade vs Bryant. Bryant for sure has the edge, but the way Wade has pushed a team with no one on it has always impressed me.

 

But right now, Kobe for sure.

 

Agree with you completely there, I've been saying for years Lebron isn't even the 2nd best player in the league due to Wade. The way he plays the game is just a joy to watch.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Sorry, but when both teams combine to get to triple digits (barely) going into the fourth quarter, it's not an enjoyable game. And I dislike the dunkfest that basketball has become. I couldn't watch the beginning of the game due to some other stuff I had to do for school, but when I was driving back, I envisioned a high(er) scoring game. Some guys couldn't hit open shots!

 

I am a Pistons fan and when we played great D and won a championship everyone said it was boring. Game 7 has good D and BAD BAD BAD jump shooting but they call it a great game? I don't get it.

 

Also the Lakers fans are real classy. Nice job making your city look bad.

 

I wanted the Lakers to win cuz I hate the Celtics more. So I chose the lesser of 2 evils. Plus Kobe is the best player in the NBA right now.

 

Come on now. Bad jump shooting, so what? Know why that was? Because of many things.

 

Both teams were TIRED, they just looked flat-out tired playing. But despite that, they hustled harder than ever, powerful defense and contact all around the match. The announcers said it themselves, it was like a damn wrestling match. Rough contact action, they focused on defense and tried to make it work from all ends. You think with all that, they woulda had some high-scoring showdown? Hell no.

 

That's why Kobe had a low FG percentage and why the Celtics really struggled in some parts. Gasol got murked at the rim so many times but he never gave up.

 

To me, that was a great game. If anything, it would've been silly to believe the scores would go over 90. The defense had to be on point, and the Celtics brought it... apart from their presence on the glass, that's where they really choked and where they cost them. Kobe took advantage of that and made up for his lack of scoring to capture 15 rebounds. Artest did his part, Fisher did too and as a result we got our champs. Big props to Kobe, he can wave in magazine covers now with his whole hand. Five-time, baby.

[maskedpropaganda]

R.I.P. Manute Bol.

 

Saw him get in a fight once (I think it was against J.R. Reid) and the big man could slap fight with the best of em. Was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. His family and friends have my well wishes.

[GatorBait19]

Agree with you completely there, I've been saying for years Lebron isn't even the 2nd best player in the league due to Wade. The way he plays the game is just a joy to watch.

 

I love Wade and think at times he gets overlooked.

 

I don't even think Lebron is the 3rd best player or 4th (Kevin Durant 3rd and Rose 4th)

 

Lebron does a lot of things for the Cavs and when all is said and done he could be the best stats wise, But Durant, Kobe, Wade, and Rose make their teammates better players.

 

Rose: First look what he's done in the playoffs, he takes himself to a different level and carries his team. What he did last year against Boston is what makes legends. Also Noah was looking like a soft bust before Rose and Deng and Henrich were struggling to. Now they all look very good and it's because Rose plays his butt off.

 

Durant: Came into the league on fire, and now with talent around him we see the superstar of now and not tomorrow.

 

Kobe: Enough said

 

Wade: Sure Wade won his Championship with Shaq, but he has also lead the Heat to the playoffs (I believe) 6 out of his 7 years and the year they didn't go he was hurt. Imagne if the Bulls would have taken Beasley. Heat could have had a Dynasty. He has also had very little support outside of Shaq and still manges to carry the team.

 

 

So my list is

 

1) Kobe

2) Wade

3) Durant

4) Rose

5) Lebron (I know tough a crazy, but he hasn't proven enough to me)

6) Howard (When he matures and leaves his childish act at home he could move up)

7) Chris Paul

8) Bosh

9) Dirk (Hasn't won it all, but he carries that team)

10) Nash

11) D. Williams (Utah boy that many might not know much about, he lead Illinois to a championship game, losing to the big 5 of UNC, is one of the best PG in the game)

[CQI13]

Wade: Sure Wade won his Championship with Shaq, but he has also lead the Heat to the playoffs (I believe) 6 out of his 7 years and the year they didn't go he was hurt. Imagne if the Bulls would have taken Beasley. Heat could have had a Dynasty. He has also had very little support outside of Shaq and still manges to carry the team.

 

As much as Shaq would like to deny this, HE was Wade's sidekick during the '06 run. It should read "Shaq won his championship with Wade" not the other way around.

[jbergey_2005]

 

So my list is

 

1) Kobe

2) Wade

3) Durant

4) Rose

5) Lebron (I know tough a crazy, but he hasn't proven enough to me)

6) Howard (When he matures and leaves his childish act at home he could move up)

7) Chris Paul

8) Bosh

9) Dirk (Hasn't won it all, but he carries that team)

10) Nash

11) D. Williams (Utah boy that many might not know much about, he lead Illinois to a championship game, losing to the big 5 of UNC, is one of the best PG in the game)

 

Rose over Lebron, Dwight Howard, or Chris Paul is one of the craziest things I have seen posted in this forum. And Lebron is the best player in the NBA today. He cant help it his teammates blow in comparison to Kobe. With similar talent surrounding him Kobe's team were 1st round losers.

 

 

Lebron does a lot of things for the Cavs and when all is said and done he could be the best stats wise, But Durant, Kobe, Wade, and Rose make their teammates better players.

 

 

So how is it that Durant and Rose make their teammates better yet Lebron is simply"could be the best stats wise"? Didnt Cleveland just have the best record in the NBA this year? You must just say this crazy stuff because you know it will generate a reaction because you cant possibly be serious.

[lazorbeak]

Rose over Lebron, Dwight Howard, or Chris Paul is one of the craziest things I have seen posted in this forum. And Lebron is the best player in the NBA today. He cant help it his teammates blow in comparison to Kobe. With similar talent surrounding him Kobe's team were 1st round losers.

 

 

 

So how is it that Durant and Rose make their teammates better yet Lebron is simply"could be the best stats wise"? Didnt Cleveland just have the best record in the NBA this year? You must just say this crazy stuff because you know it will generate a reaction because you cant possibly be serious.

 

Quoted for agreed completely. In no way, shape, form, or manner is Rose above any of those guys. He's at about the same level as Tony Parker for me: TP gets less individual offensive stats, but he also has 3 rings and plays on a team that actually wins games. And much as I like Parker, he's not a top 3 point guard, and probably not top 5. Rose is moving up while Parker is moving down, but right now he's closer to Russell Westbrook than Chris Paul or D-Wade.

 

Also people can doubt Lebron's heart or his coaching staff or what have you, but anyone arguing that he's not the most physically talented player in the league is demonstratively wrong. By any stat you look at Lebron was the most valuable player to his team all season long and produced in every stat category like none other. There isn't a single other player in the league that can regularly score 30 points, grab 7 boards 8 assists all while playing great transition defense and being a league leader in steals. LeBron has been the best individual player in the league for at least 3 years running: it certainly isn't his fault his front office is run by a bunch of clowns that think an undersized non-defender like Jamison is the missing piece.

 

Another thing: I know Duncan is getting old and is playing reduced minutes, but after Howard he was the 2nd most effective big man in the league this year (3rd if you count Bosh). Dude's quietly won 4 titles, 2 MVPs, has never missed the playoffs, and has led the Spurs to about 57 wins a season for the past 13 seasons. I know he's not exciting or controversial but he is one of the best all-around power forward's to ever play the position.

 

Also Pau Gasol is moving into the conversation as an elite big man. He's the reason the Lakers are the champs, not Kobe's individual skills. His production in games 6 and 7 was incredible (18 points/15 rebounds/6.5 assists per game), and he was just behind Duncan in overall player efficiency for the year, largely because for the first time ever he averaged 10 boards a game for a season.

[jbergey_2005]

Quoted for agreed completely. In no way, shape, form, or manner is Rose above any of those guys. He's at about the same level as Tony Parker for me: TP gets less individual offensive stats, but he also has 3 rings and plays on a team that actually wins games. And much as I like Parker, he's not a top 3 point guard, and probably not top 5. Rose is moving up while Parker is moving down, but right now he's closer to Russell Westbrook than Chris Paul or D-Wade.

 

 

Tony Parker is the perfect comparison to Rose right now. Great a getting to the hoop, streaky mid range shooters that arent known for their great defense.

[Teh_Showtime]

Im going to say this now; LeBron to the Nets

 

Harris, Lopez, and LeBron would dominate

[GatorBait19]

Rose over Lebron, Dwight Howard, or Chris Paul is one of the craziest things I have seen posted in this forum. And Lebron is the best player in the NBA today. He cant help it his teammates blow in comparison to Kobe. With similar talent surrounding him Kobe's team were 1st round losers.

 

 

 

So how is it that Durant and Rose make their teammates better yet Lebron is simply"could be the best stats wise"? Didnt Cleveland just have the best record in the NBA this year? You must just say this crazy stuff because you know it will generate a reaction because you cant possibly be serious.

 

Rose took a woe-ful Chicago team to the playoffs his first year and did crazy things in them against the C's. I like Paul, I just don't buy into the hype as quickly as everyone else does.

 

Also, why are you so high on Dwight Howard? because he is a beast at the defensive end, but his only true offense is a dunk? I love Howard don't get me wrong, but he has some flaws that make me question if he is even best big man in the game today. Tim Duncan who wasn't even flashy had much better numbers then Howard has had at this point in his career. Last year's title run had a lot to do with Lewis and (oh god) Hedo.

 

I have no problem saying Lebron is the MVP and has the best stats. Stats don't make the best player though. What made Jordan, Isiah Thomas, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson so great was that heart. Mike Brown was a very good coach and it's a shame he was the scape-goat in Cleveland. Lebron just doesn't have that heart to me. Could that change, yes it did for Kobe. The thing I think Lebron has lacked in Cleveland is the fact that the fan base doesn't push him. how many times to do you think he has been critized up there? If he left do you really think they would boo him or the frachise?

 

Like you I want Lebron to be the best player and better than Jordan or Kobe, but until he wins (a championship) he isn't in the same breath as Kobe, Jordan, or Wade. If you would like I'll move Lebron to third ahead of Durant and Rose, stats wise I have no problem with that. The way Rose has pushed teams in the playoffs so far and how Durant pushed the Lakers this year just makes me believe they are going to be something more than 30 ppg, 7 ast, and 7 RPG.

 

But, I will not move C4 or Howard up. Howard has a lot more to prove, he has to lose is childish ways and become more of a leader. C4 big thing is I want to is how he comes back from that knee injury. he played a couple games last year, but this year will be a big test.

 

 

Lazor, I loved Duncan in his heyday, but I see it being Howard, Bosh, Gasol, Lee, Dirk, with Ducan and Jefferson tied. Duncan put up the same numbers (pretty much) as Jefferson. Jefferson was coming back from a knee injury. Age has just caught up to Duncan and it sucks, he avg the least amount of min pg this year and yet in the playoffs (like last year) with him getting more minutes his stats declined

 

Also if Gasol could do 18ppg, 10rpg, and even 4 to 5 ast pg he'd be the best big man in the game.

[jbergey_2005]

You can keep Rose where he is for all I care. Its your list.

 

It just doesnt make sense to me. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are the 2 best point guards in the NBA right now. I am not sure what part of Rose's game you even could think is better than them 2 right now.

 

Dwight Howard simply controls the lane and is the best big man in the NBA right now. As long as he can continue to rebound, dunk, pass, and block shots I would take him over a scoring point guard that isnt a great passer yet and plays poor defense.

 

I'm not a King James fan so I have no rooting interest if he wins more rings than MJ or Bryant. I just watch basketball and I understand the Lebron James is more important to his team than any other player in the NBA.

 

Put Derrick Rose on the Cavs and take Lebron off how many games do you think they win? Put Lebron on the Bulls and take Rose off how many games do you think they win?

 

My guess is the Cavs would have been around a 41-45 win team this year while the Bulls would have won around 55-60 games.

 

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

 

Check out win shares towards the bottom. Lebron James is consistently 1 or 2 every year while Rose hasnt been able to crack the top 20 as of yet.

[GatorBait19]

You can keep Rose where he is for all I care. Its your list.

 

It just doesnt make sense to me. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are the 2 best point guards in the NBA right now. I am not sure what part of Rose's game you even could think is better than them 2 right now.

 

Dwight Howard simply controls the lane and is the best big man in the NBA right now. As long as he can continue to dunk, pass, and block shots I would take him over a scoring point guard that isnt a great passer yet and plays poor defense.

 

I'm not a King James fan so I have no rooting interest if he wins more rings than MJ or Bryant. I just watch basketball and I understand the Lebron James is more important to his team than any other player in the NBA.

 

Put Derrick Rose on the Cavs and take Lebron off how many games do you think they win? Put Lebron on the Bulls and take Rose off how many games do you think they win?

 

My guess is the Cavs would have been around a 41-45 win team this year while the Bulls would have won around 55-60 games.

 

very good points with out a doubt, I just see things different.

 

hey look durant is second

[lazorbeak]

You can keep Rose where he is for all I care. Its your list.

 

It just doesnt make sense to me. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are the 2 best point guards in the NBA right now. I am not sure what part of Rose's game you even could think is better than them 2 right now.

 

And the next two guys after him are probably Steve Nash and either Jason Kidd or Rondo. Rose doesn't put up the assists of any of those players and is not a great perimeter shooter.

 

Rose was the 3rd leading scorer and averaged 6 assists on a team that also featured Ben Gordon, John Salmons, Deng, a healthy Brad Miller, and Kirk Heinrich. No idea how that's "woeful" or how CP3 is unproven, since he lead the Hornets to 56 wins and a division title, accomplishments Rose hasn't even approached with the Bulls. On the subject of "not proven," Rose is pretty much exhibit A. He's never actually accomplished anything.

 

Dwight Howard simply controls the lane and is the best big man in the NBA right now. As long as he can continue to rebound, dunk, pass, and block shots I would take him over a scoring point guard that isnt a great passer yet and plays poor defense.

 

When Yao was healthy, he was the most talented offensive big man in the league, but honestly having the best defensive big man is more valuable, and that's undeniably Howard. He's not a great offensive player, but he doesn't have to be.

 

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_leaders.html

 

Check out win shares towards the bottom. Lebron James is consistently 1 or 2 every year while Rose hasnt been able to crack the top 20 as of yet.

 

The stat that jumps out at me most is Gasol's presence as #5 in win shares per 48 minutes. Not only was he quietly the biggest reason the Lakers won the championship in the finals, he was the most effective player on that team all season.

 

Also note that after Howard and Gasol, Duncan is the #3 big man in the league in win shares and win shares per 48 minutes even at age 34 and visibly on the decline. He is still an elite big man, and adds more wins to the Spurs than Al Jefferson or David Lee or any other player with inflated stats from a bad team. Of course, common sense should tell people that already, because while Bosh and the rest may be more physically talented, none of them have the pedigree of consistently winning basketball games that Duncan has.

[Jaysin]

I'm not a basketball fan, but I just really want Lebron out of Cleveland. I'm insanely sick of him. He's been shoved down our throats since he was in high school. Plus, the skyscraper size billboard with him on it is one of the most obnoxious things I have ever seen.

[GatorBait19]

So you two are throwing a stat at me that was developed for baseball, neither of you can calculate, and their is no way for the stat to be decreased as the hear all tell all?

[jbergey_2005]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="GatorBait19" data-cite="GatorBait19" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="27836" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So you two are throwing a stat at me that was developed for baseball, neither of you can calculate, and their is no way for the stat to be decreased as the hear all tell all?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> <a href="http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html" rel="external nofollow">http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html</a></p><p> </p><p> Also I dont believe anyone was just throwing this stat out at you. It seemed you just needed a refresher on who Lebron James is if you havent seen him play.</p>

[GatorBait19]

<p>So you two are throwing a stat at me that was developed for baseball, neither of you can calculate, and their is no way for the stat to be decreased as the hear all tell all to a player being elite?</p><p> </p><p>

If we based it off on that stat, Kobe isn't even top 20. Kobe wouldn't even be the best player on his team. J.J Redick, Varejao, andNene are elite players though. Hell by that stat alone San Antonio and Utah should have been the top two teams in the West.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

But you guys are right Rose isn't the top PG in the game. Now his first two years better than Nash, Williams, and Rondo..... yes.</p><p> </p><p>

Duncan isn't elite anymore, he his still talented, but his elite days are behind him.</p><p> </p><p>

It's odd that you consider the Timberwolves bad as just the other day they were good enough (to you) to challenge in the East and Jefferson still coming back from a knee injury.... A knee injury for a big man (or really anyone in basketball) can be career ending.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

Also you are taking a stat that the stat isn't 100% sure is correct </p><p> </p><p>

<a href="http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html" rel="external nofollow">http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html</a></p><p> </p><p>

first line second sentence </p><p> </p><p>

I decided to <strong>attempt</strong> to calculate basketball Win Shares</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

common sense would dictate that the Spurs were winners this year not because of Tim Duncan being elite, but because they are a defensive minded team with great talent (Parker, Manu, Jefferson, McDyess, George Hill)</p>