[HYPE] CV97 for TEW2020 (input wanted)

[Derek B]

This might be another question that would be better asked when the game is released, but I am gonna ask it now as it's something I could put work into just now if I wanted to do it.

 

Dojo Graduations. We have the option of setting workers to debut in classes or throughout the year... and with the refinements to the numbers actually graduating so that there are guaranteed grads too, that means there are certain numbers of people per year. And depending on how I set up the schools, some of them may end up with more people preset to graduate from them than the game would generate, effectively making them a meaningless expense.

 

So I have two questions...

 

1. Should I try to line up the number of grads I KNOW will debut per year from a dojo with the school, even if it means incurring extra costs? (maybe for a few years ahead, rather than all time)

 

2. For dojos like the SWF one that has a December 2005 class but mosty random dates or NOTBPW and their 2001 class, should I set their dojos to specific class graduations OR would you rather I have them set to random? Linked to this.... would people prefer those that are set to have classes to also have graduation dates for known graduating workers moved to fall in line with those for internal consistency OR left with random dates?

 

I appreciate it might be tricky to answer just now, but I'd appreciate the input. It'll probably require the TEW20 demo to fully appreciate the scope of the question but I'm sure some people will have opinions on how they'd like to see it handled, while I'm not sure myself.

[Self]

I'm curious to what Adam's going to do with Dojos for the 2020, in terms of these new options. Which Dojos will operate on classes. Which will pump out students as and when ready. I'd like to see a mix to add personality to each Dojo. NOTBPW's prestigious House of Stone with their strict annual classes. CGC's showbiz Power House unleashing a new up a monster as soon as one is ready to bump around for a DeColt.

 

I'd want whatever setting allows key workers to debut in the year they're suppose to. Months can change, particularly to align to class schedules, but I'd be disappointed if Acid, Art Reed, Owen Love et al didn't all debut in 2001 (although Bobby Thomas being in CGC at the time throws up the option that some of them were on the indy scene beforehand).

 

Generally, I don't use/pay attention to randomly generated graduates in this data, as I want to use 'real' workers who were around at this time. So anything that limits their creation is a thumbs up for me.

 

As you say, I'll need to look at the game proper before I can really get my head around these questions.

[Blackman]

Generally, I don't use/pay attention to randomly generated graduates in this data, as I want to use 'real' workers who were around at this time.

 

I can't speak for everybody, but I think most people will also turn them off entirely (until 2020, if they ever get there ). There's literaly no point as they will just push away 'real' workers.

 

The class of '01 of the Stones should obviously graduate together as that's canon. They're all great friends anyway (except Bloodstone) so I'd be surprised if it wasn't a class system. The 'problem' is they moved away from the class system immediately after '01, so who can tell?

[Blackman]

After yesterday's announcement it just feels... wrong () to not play as HGC. It was already an interesting situation to book, partly because they are just starting out.

 

I was thinking of adding a women's division as they brim with acting talent, but the weird thing is that Suzue Katayama seems to be the most well known one. Any reason why this is? She's the only regional level known woman that could join (Stardust is obviously out). Doesn't make sense to me as few people would know her from Japan. You also gave her two tag team title runs she never had historically. I know: you're obviously free to shape your own mod to your liking and all, but it makes a lot more sense that Cat Quine would be the best national name in the promotion.

 

As for HGC: are you planning to stick with 50 million as the starting money? It was the maximum amount, but as you're free to change it you can make it 40 or even 60. They already have the necessary production values for the 'cinematic' matches. It makes sense, as they were left with 5 million in 2016, so it explains the money lost.

[Derek B]

Starting money is going to be different due to the way finances are handled now. I haven't settled on numbers yet.

 

As for women's wrestling, that's going to end up scaled differently too, with some worker contracts for owners already likely being changed to handshake deals for TEW20. Historically there has been very little women's wrestling of note in North America so there is no one around to be very over at all. At this point, anyone who has a shred of talent from working around the country or internationally is going to be close to the top of the totem pole but even AAA are so new that they've not had the time to build stars.

 

It's part of why I asked about adding more women a while back to give a bit of history to the women's division and give more options. But really, the lack of official Cornellverse history makes it hard to stick to canon and why I've been increasingly happy to add more things to the world over time. Because without adding things, the world is empty and not fun.

[PhenomenalPat]

Obviously, as seen by the comments thus far, people are going to feel different about it, but personally I'd LOVE to see a stronger women's presence in the mod. I just feel the point of a historical mod is to take the history that is, and change it. It's likely that anyone who's played your mod has changed canon during play, had people win titles or join promotions they never did in CVerse established history.

 

I say make the mod you want to make, make a young and ready to flourish women's scene in North America, make some deathmatch promotions. Have fun with it, make the mod that you think will provide the best and funnest world to play.

[Blackman]

Well... If you end up playing HGC it's easy to make a women's division as they aren't far behind on the rest of the roster. Maybe it's possible to devise some scenario where Stallings is allowed to set AAA up as a feeder promotion. I'll be experimenting with the demo to see what options we have. It's definitely small enough.

 

The things you added definitely make the earlier years more fun, as HGC would be... 'weird' without the older guys who aren't in the current database because they were irrelevant in 2005. AAA would have to have SOME roster. It's small enough as it is, which is why I don't like the tag titles that early. But then again, look at TNA's Knockout Tag title... There were 8 women in the division ffs.

 

You can look at the historical C-verse and think it's a pity the women weren't involved earlier, but it's nice that it's left to the player to decide that. I think it has to do with Vicky being humble and putting 'family first', quite unlike Steph, and AAA just playing it safe. I've made them relevant in almost any game I've played since 2005, except a couple like a PGHW game where I watched 5SSW die and did nothing. I never got over it.

 

Would be nice to see some more columns for the Cverse like these, dating from 2010. I want to know what happened for Anne Stardust to turn into the bitter woman she is today, whereas in CV97 her personality is almost the opposite and unlikely to become what it canonically was. She's been manipulative b*tch since TEW2005. Marilyn was the more optimistic one, but either the split between them made her bitter or it must be something else not documented. It's these small changes that make me wonder: why? Did SHE injure Farrah or Reese (or, god forbit, both?) and did thàt turn her sour? Would make total sense. A lot can happen in 8 years, but lots of blanks there. (note to self: when playing AAA, make a story on how Stardust purposely injured them) Maybe I'm over-immersing myself in the world due to the tropes of solitary confinement, but it would be nice if meaningful changes to the canon can be explained. Because most likely the game won't organically change her and she'll be 'different' for the whole game.

[Self]

I think there are plenty of ways to increase the female presence in the mod without overwriting/breaking/changing/tweaking canon. You could add women's divisions to existing promotions, but that just throws up the question of "what happened? Why doesn't the division exist in modern day? Did women's wrestling fail for them?". Inventing promotions with women's wrestling that don't exist in current canon and don't have histories and backstories makes more sense to me. Especially if their stars are in their mid-30's already, likely to retire by 2005, and the company has some built in clues as to why it did. Not necessarily kill switches. Just freak accidents that happened in the 'real' timeline but not in this save.

 

Or just add a ton of potential talent and let the player do their thing. Make it ridiculous that all those promoters back then didn't give it a chance. Excellent workers who lacked what traditionally got women on TV in that era. Let the player fix it. The mod doesn't need to fix it.

[The Celt]

I think there are plenty of ways to increase the female presence in the mod without overwriting/breaking/changing/tweaking canon. You could add women's divisions to existing promotions, but that just throws up the question of "what happened? Why doesn't the division exist in modern day? Did women's wrestling fail for them?". Inventing promotions with women's wrestling that don't exist in current canon and don't have histories and backstories makes more sense to me. Especially if their stars are in their mid-30's already, likely to retire by 2005, and the company has some built in clues as to why it did. Not necessarily kill switches. Just freak accidents that happened in the 'real' timeline but not in this save.

 

Or just add a ton of potential talent and let the player do their thing. Make it ridiculous that all those promoters back then didn't give it a chance. Excellent workers who lacked what traditionally got women on TV in that era. Let the player fix it. The mod doesn't need to fix it.

 

Indeed, the reason why there had to be a "Womens' Revolution" IRL is because there was something wrong to begin with. The fact of the matter is that Pro Wrestling in America lagged behind the progress that was being made in real sports by a wide margin, and that reality is reflected in the C-Verse.

 

I would imagine that women in North America in the 90s in the C-Verse would have to rely quite a deal on touring in Japan and perhaps Mexico.

 

Characters bios like that of Joanna Rodriguez say that CZCW had a women's division for a while in the early 2000s so that shows a mild uptick in Women's' wrestling in the timeline, but 97 might be too early to start demonstrating that.

[Dorian]

I would say that if you were to include women's wrestling it would be promotions that are local or small and that the talent is pretty lackluster and that the few standouts carry each federation.

 

So a person like Joanna Rodriguez carries the division in CZCW, but the rest of the talent is pretty poor or needs to be built up. The division then just becomes a place to showcase the one worker and that's all the division is thought of. That's pretty much what back then was like in real life's 97 as well. When Joanna leaves, the division pretty much dies.

 

I also think that a lot of women's companies probably don't survive the 90s thanks to talent droughts except 5SSW and AAA. And those companies either a) don't happen to have them or b) where all the actual talent does end up going because pay cheques are stable.

 

That last one is key too. Most of the talent probably wants to head to 5SSW and AAA because they are the big names in women's wrestling at the time. While CZCW is a place that has a division, AAA would likely be seen as a better place to work because you are battling for the top prize, not a side piece. CZCW's division is probably treated like an unwanted child, which is probably why Joanna left to AAA.

 

Hell, USPW's own women's division is basically just there for Alicia Strong and that was recent.

 

Actually, let me use WWE's 97 women's roster to illustrate the point of how poor the rosters probably are:

Debra

Chyna

Luna

Terri Runnels

Jacqueline

Sable

Ivory

 

That's not a very strong division and if you think about it, was more T&A than actual wrestling. When Chyna was on top of it, it was pretty much Chyna and everyone else is an after thought.

 

Actually in the UK, women's wrestling was banned until 1987 (something I didn't know). Which would mean that the earliest you would get a crop of UK (and by extension Europe) female wrestlers that are great is around right now (like in real life). As those in 1987 would be horrible, 97 would be okay at best, 2007 would be good, and 2017 would be great. As it would take time to bring in talent abroad, teach talent to be better, and get places to showcase their skills.

 

And that's in real life. In the Cornellverse for the UK, remember 21CW bought out everyone else when TEW 2016 comes around. They also didn't make a women's division. Imagine how many female wrestlers or stars they probably made fed up and just walk away from the business. That probably set that scene back years of where it should be.

 

Honestly, I could see it being like that as well. Hell, USPW probably did the same thing with the US side of things, just went under the radar because none of the companies would be big enough and it would only be women's wrestling company/ies, so not many would care.

 

So while it is bleak, it is similar to real life. That's the main reason why when I was working on my own mod (before my lappy needed repairs) and set all the companies as just starting in 2016 and working together. Women's wrestling is still trying to catch up to the men.

 

Eye opening, isn't it? Was to me when I was doing up my mod and thinking "oh, I can just make this like real life" and then realizing real life is so damned depressing.

 

The Cornellverse is probably just likely the same. The only difference with a 97 mod is that you'd be in charge of one of the many new (local or small) women's federations that probably start up then but will be dead when TEW 2012 hits and definitely dead by 2016. You'd have to nurture the ailing talent you've got and try changing the company's fate that you've chosen in 97. Well, except the UK, where you'll have to start over from scratch after 21CW buys everyone up (and the entire women's UK scene leaves) whenever it is that they do it.

 

What I'd recommend doing specifically with CZCW is having the division as a child company of CZCW. That way you can have it have a proper life of 97 until say 07. Probably the only way to have it function in TEW16 and/or TEW20, I think.

 

I'd also recommend that any good women wrestlers that you add, have US, Japan and Mexico checked as available to wrestle. OLLIE, 5SSW and AAA are where talented women are going to want to wrestler. Not for the local or small companies.

 

That's only my opinion on the matter and what I learned while trying to do up my own mod of adding in more women's wrestling.

[Blackman]

<p>The way I see it, CZCW would not be a hostile environment at all, and could've eventually seen J-Ro with some gold. But afaik their event is a day before AAA. In the game they can work both events but it would obviously be harder irl, so they might have to pick one. But there wasn't a division, it was half-intergender. Only 3 women passed by there, I think.</p><p> </p><p>

And you're forgetting NOTBPW, where - for some reason - the division's been a bit of a side attraction as the truly talented women haven't signed for them until much later on. Vicky is not one to hog the spotlight, but as I said before she's probably too focused on her job as a booker. For the rest: there's just no incentive to add a division. If there's no internal connections or second generation stars like Alicia Strong, nothing was going to happen unless Eisen decides to have one for some reason. In real life, the division's been there for decades, so that made it legit, even if the talent pool was thin. There's no history, none of the women are over at all,... A bunch of reasons to just let it be.</p><p> </p><p>

But another thing: the potential. I for one would set the potential level of a future C-verse star to the maximum, because if you keep it random, you don't even get to repeat history, and it just feels weird random jobbers would be getting top skills. I considered at one point to pre-set chemistry in some cases, but for every positive I'd set a negative. But in the end, the established tag teams have no chemistry anyway.</p>

[stillnotover]

I'm excited to hear your bringing your cv97 to 2020! I've enjoyed getting lost in time...I'll probably have to re learn things like Bruce the Giant went to Japan and not HGC

[djthefunkchris]

I'd rather Hinote Dojo stay on as a feeder league.

/nod, and as I skimmed over other area's, I tend to agree with Self as well.

 

But I just looked at it tonight/this morning, so I was going to answer the OP first.

 

1. Yes, you are right, the women could be doubled and it would still only be about a third of the workers in the database. So yeah, I'm all for you adding another 300 women to the game!

 

2. Do whatever makes you happy here. I'm like Stunning Steve Austin, don't care much about the violent crap, I'm here for the wrestling.... outside of the really awesome diary that went on for years.

 

3. Whatever happened to that other historical mod, from I believe the 70's? It's too bad you can't grab that one and use some of those workers as road agents and such, a lot of them would be around the right age. OR just create them and make them cannon.

 

4. If you have to, "create" people. To preserve the historical scene from 97 on, I would maybe have them much older, to where in the next several years they would be getting out of the business... but young enough to hit those levels you need to fill in.

 

5. Always good to see new companies, but I wouldn't want them to come out for a while.

 

Bonus #1: Leave the scumbag, but feel free to make the roster as good as you please. I think that would make for more fun (or funny) gameplay.

 

Bonus #2: I like the old school guys way. I don't mind the valets, but never thought they really did anything outside of trying to make themselves look good, not necessarily the guy. I've never believed they have ever worked even halfway as good as TEW makes them work. I've always felt like there weren't enough ref's, even announcers and such. I feel there should be about 100 more of each non-wrestling positions. Get to work!

 

Keep the dojo.

 

1. yes

 

2. Specific

 

That's my two cents. You know I've been a fan of your CV97' mods from the very start, so even if you do exact opposite of what I just said, I'm all for whatever you do.

[Slim Jim]

<p>I wouldn’t worry too much about things not being ‘canon’ as long as they don’t completely reshape the C-Verse. It’s not like Adam hasn’t retconned anything himself in the past anyway. Perhaps even ask him if he’d like you to weave the extra women’s wrestling elements into the official canon? A few extra female wrestlers that became managers/valets in bigger companies, maybe a few extra divisions/companies that can provide some title histories even if they don’t hang around into the modern game, if Adam has added new companies/divisions working them backwards to fit ‘97.</p><p> </p><p>

Either way, I think adding some low level companies and workers will flesh out the game world in an interesting way. If the player or AI companies don’t take advantage of that, they’ll fade away but having a scene there that has potential to grow into something is a fun challenge to rewrite history. I think a couple of more popular workers who have other careers would also be fun. Maybe HGC brought in a couple of actresses or singers in their early days for crossover appeal? Quite easy to explain their disappearance in canon: they went back to their main career.</p><p> </p><p>

For extra staff, wrestling has always been quite nepotistic so maybe there are some siblings/friends/children/cousins that got work as referees/commentators/managers/wrestlers but didn’t last because they just weren’t good at it. We all loved the Mean Street Posse, right?</p>

[Cooljazz123]

<p>I am working on a new September 1997 database, so I can write up Tommy Cornell´s HGC debut, for Tew 2020. I have edited the database and worked on popularity and hiring rules of companies in North America, Canada and Japan to make them more sustainable, as well as, the rosters to make them more full while respecting the canon wherever possible.</p><p> </p><p>

I was thinking that April (Nemesis canon DAVE debut) or preferable September (Cornells HGC debut) is a better starting point than January</p><p> </p><p>

Can I upload or send the work I have done so far?</p>

[Blackman]

I wouldn’t worry too much about things not being ‘canon’ as long as they don’t completely reshape the C-Verse. It’s not like Adam hasn’t retconned anything himself in the past anyway.

 

For TEW, I think the changes have been limited. In WMMA it was a lot more drastic. But whatever, I'm not thàt autistic that I can't accept these things. As for "canon": what's with Sam Strong's skills? I thought he was supposed to suck, as canon dictates "his matches were often terrible". Yet he has C brawling. He's going to get strings of A matches with those skills. Maybe his days in Japan improved him (which could explain A psychology), but I'd give him a D for brawling.

 

And honestly: what's with all the fuzz surrounding women's wrestling in the C-verse? Is it because of the "women's revolution" in WWE since 2016 that people suddenly demand that every mod accomodates for that? Or what happened? It is what it is, people. But maybe you can put in some Stacy Keiblers now, you know, valets with occasional matches.

 

@Cooljazz123: It is indeed upsetting that you can only sign Cornell late into 1998 because you cannot set contract lenght in the db. You CAN however in WMMA5 so this might be a feature for TEW20. So I'd ask DerekB first whether that is an option, so maybe it's unnecessary. If it is, you just have to set a narrative to let people know the contract is coming up. Maybe put some "simmering tension" in with Eisen to nudge the AI into setting up the switch? But really... you can reduce his contract size once you started the game to mimick history and then sign him easily as SWF probably won't care, so it's really not necessary to start in september, which people generally don't like as the end of year awards are screwed up.

 

Personally, I like the current date of january 1997 a lot more as you can book HGC from their first show (and start closer to the debut of 4C and PGHW). Of course you can release your own version of the mod. No modder has blocked anyone from doing that afaik, and by default it's allowed as long as you give proper credit.

[Munit]

I am working on a new September 1997 database, so I can write up Tommy Cornell´s HGC debut, for Tew 2020. I have edited the database and worked on popularity and hiring rules of companies in North America, Canada and Japan to make them more sustainable, as well as, the rosters to make them more full while respecting the canon wherever possible.

 

I was thinking that April (Nemesis canon DAVE debut) or preferable September (Cornells HGC debut) is a better starting point than January

 

Can I upload or send the work I have done so far?

 

I'm actually really curious about seeing this mod

[Blackman]

After reading today's new change, what is preventing a HGC player from just firing Peter Valentine? If you take Sam Strong's place as the booker, he's technically powerless as - afaik - there is no real political engine in the game apart from friendships with the owner (which Strong doesn't have). So if you just take a small financial hit (from the millions in the bank), you're strictly better off without him. It would be nice to somehow have him locked in as long as Sam's there. I guess you can make up your own house rules, but even then you can just pay him not to show up (like in WCW ).

 

Making Sam Strong the owner will forever prevent him from potentially taking over USPW. Not that that will ever happen, but it's all possible. But as the owner, at least you're left with some challenges. Technically J.K Junior is the major stakeholder who pays for the costs or profits from the company, but as he never meddles with anything he's not really an owner to me.

 

-----------

 

And as another case of canon being completely twisted: I noticed the tag team of "Anderson & Snyder", which are supposed to have good chemistry, instead have "bad" chemistry in your mod. I never noticed as I don't sign those, but I'm baffled as to why you would import it and completely twist it to canon. I understand scrapping the chemistry, but why reverse it?

[Cooljazz123]

Yeah a rookie Peter Valentine as intercontinental champ, yikes! Strong defenetly leads a large stable in this timeline.

 

SWF is just slightly better off with Jim Force as their US champ in September.

[Blake Trask]

I mean, do you want your top star, who has creative control, to be POed at you from the get go?

 

Don't underestimate how badly poor morale tanks performances.

 

Valentine and Strong have a best friends relationship, firing Valentine might bring Strong to the point of wanting to walk out immediately.

[Blackman]

I mean, do you want your top star, who has creative control, to be POed at you from the get go?

 

Don't underestimate how badly poor morale tanks performances.

 

Valentine and Strong have a best friends relationship, firing Valentine might bring Strong to the point of wanting to walk out immediately.

 

That's the thing. He's the figurehead and is stoked anyway. I don't know if you've played the mod in TEW16, but you can just fire him for 240K and Mr. Strong will still be "pleased". Backstage morale will improve to 91%. So no worries. Not doing this on day 1 is pretty much idiotic, given you'll end up saving more in the long run by not having a clown like Valentine around. The only think you'll lose is the small performance bonus for morale, but Strong is getting straight A's all the time anyway.

 

So that is why I would make him owner instead if you end up playing Hollyweird. But even then, you can probably just job him out without Sam Strong giving a hoot. In the current "political" engine, he just wants his besty to have a job, not have him win titles.

 

SWF is just slightly better off with Jim Force as their US champ in September.

 

Hey yo! Don't hate on The Force!

[Cooljazz123]

That's the thing. He's the figurehead and is stoked anyway. I don't know if you've played the mod in TEW16, but you can just fire him for 240K and Mr. Strong will still be "pleased". Backstage morale will improve to 91%. So no worries. Not doing this on day 1 is pretty much idiotic, given you'll end up saving more in the long run by not having a clown like Valentine around. The only think you'll lose is the small performance bonus for morale, but Strong is getting straight A's all the time anyway.

 

So that is why I would make him owner instead if you end up playing Hollyweird. But even then, you can probably just job him out without Sam Strong giving a hoot. In the current "political" engine, he just wants his besty to have a job, not have him win titles.

 

 

 

Hey yo! Don't hate on The Force!

 

 

You´re right Force is way more useful, thank you for pointing that out

[Blackman]

Is anyone willing or able to do a write-up on HGC, like an introduction to the promotion? Of course you can piece together a lot of it by merely reading all the bios and exploring for yourself, but that can take up a lot of time. I'm willing to do it, but lack the experience. I've booked them once, but that wasn't on TEW16 (let alone TEW20). We can copy-paste the write-up to the TCW thread when the game launches.

[SilentDeath]

Well DB, I'm all for whatever you decide. I don't really understand the hoop and holler for women's wrestling. I also think WWE is very hypocritical with that women's revolution crap. If we're all honest TNA's women division carried that company for like two years and we all ate it up . Now if we limit it to a simple revolution for women in wwe and not the industry then I could see it. However, every mod doesn't HAVE to have a ton of women to have a women's scene if it doesn't fit or if it'd be forced and ill concieved. Anyway, if I had to suggest something I'd simply say have fun with it CV97 is your mod and your world that just so happens to have been inspired by CV cannon. At the end of the day it isn't 100% official cannon and to be stuck on cannon is a disservice to all the great things you may want to implement. All change isn't bad so just go with your gut on this one DB.

[Morti]

Well DB, I'm all for whatever you decide. I don't really understand the hoop and holler for women's wrestling. I also think WWE is very hypocritical with that women's revolution crap. If we're all honest TNA's women division carried that company for like two years and we all ate it up . Now if we limit it to a simple revolution for women in wwe and not the industry then I could see it. However, every mod doesn't HAVE to have a ton of women to have a women's scene if it doesn't fit or if it'd be forced and ill concieved. Anyway, if I had to suggest something I'd simply say have fun with it CV97 is your mod and your world that just so happens to have been inspired by CV cannon. At the end of the day it isn't 100% official cannon and to be stuck on cannon is a disservice to all the great things you may want to implement. All change isn't bad so just go with your gut on this one DB.

 

I completely agree on the point about women's wrestling. It is great if it is naturally included, but never force it in.