Constant Match Length penalties using Modern Throwback

[NoHopeForSome]

Hello

 

I've just done the first 4 tapings of NWA Powerrr using what was the Fleisch database and I've very few issues with the new game, which has been awesome.

 

However, the one issue I have had over and over is the penalty for match length. Despite me having some very unimportant matches, with wrestlers who are deemed as unimportant by the game (C.W. Anderson vs. Sal Rinaro is one of them), the game has told me the match was too short for it's importance and has default set every match to 15 minutes, which has got in the way of me booking some shorter matches with one main event player and one unimportant wrestler.

 

Is this working as intended? How does the game define what's important and what isn't? Is the penalty very steep?

 

I don't know if this is an issue or not but I'd like to understand this part more as I think the product is right for NWA but I think this part of it will cause me some headaches!

[TeemuFoundation]

It's my understanding that the penalties aren't too steep, or anything, but yes, they are set in stone, there's nothing you can do about them, and they are completely arbitrary with absolutely no context tied to them. They just exist, no matter what you do.

[creepshow]

<p>Modern Throwback penalty states "Matches less than 20 minutes will not be able to achieve world class scores"</p><p> </p><p>

...if I had to guess, if it's for a throwaway or a squash match it's not going to hurt anyone too much. </p><p> </p><p>

But it makes sense. Whoever heard of a 5 star squash match? <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49441" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>But it makes sense. Whoever heard of a 5 star squash match?</div></blockquote><p> Subjective. I had not watched wrestling in years, but checked out the PPV where Goldberg returned because, you know, old school fan. He squashed Lesnar in a matter of seconds. It was the best match on the card. Context: it was unexpected, so it got a positive reaction out of me. More than I can for wrestling matches in general these days.</p>

[creepshow]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49441" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Subjective. I had not watched wrestling in years, but checked out the PPV where Goldberg returned because, you know, old school fan. He squashed Lesnar in a matter of seconds. It was the best match on the card. Context: it was unexpected, so it got a positive reaction out of me. More than I can for wrestling matches in general these days.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Fair point! ...but how does a simulator account for that? <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[StayRudeStayRebel]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49441" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Subjective. I had not watched wrestling in years, but checked out the PPV where Goldberg returned because, you know, old school fan. He squashed Lesnar in a matter of seconds. It was the best match on the card. Context: it was unexpected, so it got a positive reaction out of me. More than I can for wrestling matches in general these days.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It might have been the best match on the card, but I doubt you think it was a 5* match. I find it difficult to believe anyone's arguing Goldberg vs. Lesnar is in the same category as let's say Hart vs. Hart at WM10. At least in TEW16 you can get decent ratings even in squash matches if you have the right wrestlers and the stars align in your favor, just not a 100, because (at least I believe) no squash match can really be a 100.</p>

[NoHopeForSome]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="creepshow" data-cite="creepshow" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49441" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Modern Throwback penalty states "Matches less than 20 minutes will not be able to achieve world class scores"<p> </p><p> ...if I had to guess, if it's for a throwaway or a squash match it's not going to hurt anyone too much. </p><p> </p><p> But it makes sense. Whoever heard of a 5 star squash match? <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It not that I'm after world class scores, it's the part that says "Fans expect important matches to be quite lengthy" and then I get "this match was too short given it's importance" over and over even with guys who should be in throw away matches.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<p>I'm not here to really start an argument, or anything. Wrestling is subjective, we all have our views. If I were to make this game, I wouldn't use the Products system at all since I feel like it's not really how wrestling works, but it is how the game works. I may one day make a suggestion of the broader idea I have.</p><p> </p><p>

I just don't really believe in this concept of a "100 match" in the sense of it needing to be a certain kind of match with a certain length and certain things happening in it. Wrestling is not real, it is an entirely subjective art form, and ultimately, the only real, objective goal of a wrestling match is to draw money. It's to evoke an emotional response, which leads to you getting invested in what is being presented to you - so that you keep spending money on it.</p><p> </p><p>

The best match ever is simply the match that draws the most money. Objectively. Be it a minute, five, ten, or more. Now, subjectively, we all have our views. My favorite match ever is Owen and Bret from SummerSlam 1994 simply because I saw it knowing the result, but the match made me question whether or not I remembered correctly. That's how strong the storytelling was.</p><p> </p><p>

It just doesn't mean that, objectively, the best wrestling match ever is 30 minutes inside a steel cage with those exact spots that took place. But anyhoo. I've just always rejected the idea that there is an objective way to create a "five star wrestling match". It depends on context, expectations, the story, just everything.</p><p> </p><p>

But I also recognize that I have a vastly different way of looking at wrestling than the overwhelming majority.</p><p>

(I still think I'm right, though <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> )</p>

[Donners]

<p>The "important match" system doesn't work very well.</p><p> </p><p>

It's any match involving a star or major star, regardless of context.</p><p> </p><p>

If you have, for instance, a comedy match which is second on the card involving a star and an unrecognisable wrestler, it'll be treated as "important" and you'll get a penalty if it's not long (funnily enough, if you have it long you'll get a penalty for having a comedy match which was too long).</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49441" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The "important match" system doesn't work very well.<p> </p><p> It's any match involving a star or major star, regardless of context.</p><p> </p><p> If you have, for instance, a comedy match which is second on the card involving a star and an unrecognisable wrestler, it'll be treated as "important" and you'll get a penalty if it's not long (funnily enough, if you have it long you'll get a penalty for having a comedy match which was too long).</p></div></blockquote><p> The feeling I get with 2020 is that it just hates you, and wants to prevent you from having any fun lol.</p>

[TOTKingNothing]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TeemuFoundation" data-cite="TeemuFoundation" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49441" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The feeling I get with 2020 is that it just hates you, and wants to prevent you from having any fun lol.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It definitely doesn't want you to play how you want to play, that's for sure.</p>

[TeemuFoundation]

It definitely doesn't want you to play how you want to play, that's for sure.

And what's weird is that is has the EWR Throwback features from 2016, now with even more options. Yet it feels like you're way more handcuffed. It's a damn shame. But I've whined about this so much, no one wants to read it lol.

[Grand Avatar]

I've booked a lot of 5SSW, and 15 minute matches tend to work fine for me BUT fans expect important matches to be quite long and they want long matches in general. So if I want a high rating than I find the best thing to do is book 20 minute matches or even longer and just use a slow build and/or storytelling note if I'm worried about stamina or just don't want to risk an injury or something. For Modern Throwback I'd say Story Telling matches would probably be your best friend.

 

However, I do find the 15 minute default works out great for Pre-Show matches and generally keep them at that length.

 

I suppose I'm also helped by the fact I'm playing a Puro company, so multiman and tag bouts help ease the burden of going 20 minutes plus on a regular basis.

[TeemuFoundation]

I get what the length penalties are attempting to do; it makes booking harder, forcing you to be more strategic and planning better, and whatnot. They're also there to balance the game. And I'm sure plenty of folks enjoy things the way they are. A lot of people here have mentioned really liking the game.

[NoHopeForSome]

The "important match" system doesn't work very well.

 

It's any match involving a star or major star, regardless of context.

 

If you have, for instance, a comedy match which is second on the card involving a star and an unrecognisable wrestler, it'll be treated as "important" and you'll get a penalty if it's not long (funnily enough, if you have it long you'll get a penalty for having a comedy match which was too long).

 

Ok, that's along the lines of what I was thinking.

 

I also wonder if it's an issue with how the message is worded. It doesnt make sense to me to have a star be in only 15min+ matches because that isn't realistic.

 

However, if this match length thing is more "the rating for this match is capped by its length despite it having a star in it" rather than "I'm punishing you for putting a star in a 8 minute match against nobody" then that makes sense. Of course the match had the potential to be better if I'd made it longer or put it on PPV.

 

To be honest, I didnt do too badly even with this penalty. I ****ed one show up on angle/match balance which brought me down to tiny size but if I tried again I think I'd do fine. So it's no game breaker, just trying to understand it.

[TeemuFoundation]

Ok, that's along the lines of what I was thinking.

 

I also wonder if it's an issue with how the message is worded. It doesnt make sense to me to have a star be in only 15min+ matches because that isn't realistic.

 

However, if this match length thing is more "the rating for this match is capped by its length despite it having a star in it" rather than "I'm punishing you for putting a star in a 8 minute match against nobody" then that makes sense. Of course the match had the potential to be better if I'd made it longer or put it on PPV.

 

To be honest, I didnt do too badly even with this penalty. I ****ed one show up on angle/match balance which brought me down to tiny size but if I tried again I think I'd do fine. So it's no game breaker, just trying to understand it.

Yea, it's moreso the first one.

[francis86]

I also find it kind of hard, if you wanted to use unimportant worker, the maximum time limit he can wrestle without being overuse too much is 13 minutes so it tend to get hard to get good rating with the 20 minutes cap.

[The Nickman]

I also find it kind of hard, if you wanted to use unimportant worker, the maximum time limit he can wrestle without being overuse too much is 13 minutes so it tend to get hard to get good rating with the 20 minutes cap.

An unimportant worker is almost never going to get his matches capped for being under the 20 minutes anyway.

 

It’s only the absolute best matches that get the cap.

[ThrowawayAccount1227]

I don't think the penalty outright worsens a match, I just think it bars you from getting high ratings. Taking a look at Dave Meltzer's star ratings ( I don't care if you like the guy or think "he's helping to kill the biz"), from the couple of matches I looked at are all over 30 minutes in length.

[The Nickman]

I don't think the penalty outright worsens a match, I just think it bars you from getting high ratings. Taking a look at Dave Meltzer's star ratings ( I don't care if you like the guy or think "he's helping to kill the biz"), from the couple of matches I look at are all over 30 minutes in length.

 

That’s exactly it, it doesn’t worsen the match, just prevents it from hitting the highest notes.

 

If it’s a match with an unimportant talent, there’s absolutely NO reason to book it that long, as it will never get that high a score, and therefore never get capped.

 

I book 5 to 8 minute matches all the time in a product that has caps on anything less than 15 minutes and hardly ever see that penalty. It’s really only your Main Event and big matches on PPV that count.

[NoHopeForSome]

So this is an example of the issue I get:

 

https://ibb.co/8gJc1MV

 

It's The Dawsons vs. The Rock & Roll Express in the middle of the card. I gave the match 8 minutes, 10 overall and it's been marked down for being "too short for an important match given the product".

 

I'm failing to understand what makes it important. Nobody in the match is in a storyline, it's a Storytelling match, it's in the middle of the card, there's no title on the line, The Dawsons are Recognisable and The Rock and Rolls are stars. I can't understand what importance the game is placing on this match that I am missing!

 

In the 80s, stars would wrestle on TV but squash people with each to keep the idea that they were beasts up. I just got done watching a load of WCW Saturday Night from 1985 and Arn Anderson beat somebody in around a minute and this is common for anybody at his level. Even Terry Taylor managed to win in less than 5 minutes!

[ngz999]

But it makes sense. Whoever heard of a 5 star squash match?

 

Nobody was getting 5 star squash matches on TEW2016 either.

 

This is an extra penalty on top of the limits that were already in place due to jobber popularity/momentum (which were entirely reasonable).

[Jaded]

So this is an example of the issue I get:

 

https://ibb.co/8gJc1MV

 

It's The Dawsons vs. The Rock & Roll Express in the middle of the card. I gave the match 8 minutes, 10 overall and it's been marked down for being "too short for an important match given the product".

 

I'm failing to understand what makes it important. Nobody in the match is in a storyline, it's a Storytelling match, it's in the middle of the card, there's no title on the line, The Dawsons are Recognisable and The Rock and Rolls are stars. I can't understand what importance the game is placing on this match that I am missing!

 

In the 80s, stars would wrestle on TV but squash people with each to keep the idea that they were beasts up. I just got done watching a load of WCW Saturday Night from 1985 and Arn Anderson beat somebody in around a minute and this is common for anybody at his level. Even Terry Taylor managed to win in less than 5 minutes!

 

All matches with stars/major stars in are considered important, IIRC.

[Team Kawada]

My problem with this rule is that it prevents stars/major stars from using "Steal the show" or "All out". Is this really the intention?

[brat99]

My problem with this rule is that it prevents stars/major stars from using "Steal the show" or "All out". Is this really the intention?

 

If the stars involved can fulfill the needs for "Steal the Show" or "All Out", then the bonuses would far outweigh the ding for time.