Questlove Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Been doing some testing of the new popularity caps for broadcasters of small size and below and these seem to be the numbers: TINY COVERAGE Company pop cap - 30 Worker pop cap - 55 VERY SMALL COVERAGE (I couldn't get 100% conclusive numbers for this yet but I think these are accurate) Company pop cap - 55 Worker pop cap - 70 SMALL COVERAGE Company pop cap - 60 Worker pop cap - 75 Definitely better than before, but I think a few alterations would be good: TINY COVERAGE Company pop cap - 30 Worker pop cap - 40 (down from 55) VERY SMALL COVERAGE Company pop cap - 45 (down from 55) Worker pop cap - 55 (down from 70) SMALL COVERAGE Company pop cap - 60 Worker pop cap - 65 (down from 75) This would still allow you to get good exposure but highlight the importance to move on to bigger broadcasters and more importantly, brings the workers closer in line with their company caps to stop them from massively outgrowing who they're working for and getting enormous growth despite low viewership. What's everybody else's thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d12345 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 If this is true I agree. A worker rising to 70 pop in the U.S. while being seen on what amounts to direct tv channel 1,876 or on YouTube isn't realistic. As much as I love indy wrestling there is no indy worker in the U.S. more popular than a WWE midcard regular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donners Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 From a realism and gameplay version I'd prefer lower caps. At present it's far too easy to get workers over, which in turn leads to very sharp company growth. When combined with the low wages, there's no real challenge in starting with a small company. With lower caps, you need to work harder to grow your company, get better broadcast deals and pay for more established workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praguepride Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 If there are difficulty concerns maybe add it as a toggable feature. Turn broadcaster/company caps off. I agree that pop caps too high on tiny broadcasters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capelli King Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 yeah, i like the caps for small broadcasters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabin357 Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 I think that this suggestion would go a long way towards making the long term (1 year+) results much more realistic. Please consider these adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njmcfreak Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Love this idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBigB Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Well the thread in the tech support forum got closed as this option was added in the latest patch: - Added a Natural Growth Limits option for people who want a more fantasy-based experience with regard to company popularity growth It's not where I would have gone but it is what it is. This is what I was trying to post before it got closed (I hadn't clicked submit yet). I believe WrestleWorld takes 25 pop and opens in every game area throughout the course of a save You are correct and I can negotiate with them after raising my production values. which off the top of my head was around less than 5000 watchers, 30 is the cap. Is this 5000 total watchers or 5000 per region? ie if I end up capped at 30 in all regions it's mathematically impossible to get to small although based on how Adam stated it, it's probably the former (ie total watcher). In any case with upping my production values to the required levels and negotiating a deal for 55% of the revenue I'm not currently financially viable. I did get ~ 20,000 viewers and gained popularity in 17/18 regions so I'm not sure how long it would take to become financially viable. Anyway the problem I see with the system as it stands now is it makes the size criteria very un-intuitive. The average player who plays as a tiny or insignificant company is going to look at the size criteria and go ok I need to hold shows in my home area until I hit 35. It's natural to click on the size criteria button and basically follow it step by step. They probably will not even think about broadcasting deals at that size. And when they hit the wall they are not going to understand why growth has completely stopped which just adds frustration. Anyway for those who won't use the new Natural Growth option it's currently absolutely essential to get a broadcasting deal at Tiny as soon as physically possible or it's impossible to grow. I thought this was worth some discussion and didn't really warrant it's own thread as it is related to broadcasters and pop caps. Edit: Honestly I think what I would have done is remove the cap just for a company's home region (or a higher cap just for the home region) thus still allowing a natural progression from live shows in the home regions while still limiting expansion growth from broadcasters. I also should clarify that in patch 1.12 the caps applied to both viewership and live attendances (so if less than 5000 are attending your show) you were capped at 30 pop which is where the thread in the tech support forum started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 Bumping this as it seems like the growth limits were actually lessened in 1.14 for some reason rather than made more strict. I'm seeing companies climb into the 50s again just on Tiny broadcasters with 5-10k viewers and I've already seen some workers grow past 55 so who even knows where the worker pop cap is now. I'm confused about why it was even added if it was going to be made pointless just one or two patches later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBigB Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 Bumping this as it seems like the growth limits were actually lessened in 1.14 for some reason rather than made more strict. I'm seeing companies climb into the 50s again just on Tiny broadcasters with 5-10k viewers and I've already seen some workers grow past 55 so who even knows where the worker pop cap is now. I'm confused about why it was even added if it was going to be made pointless just one or two patches later. This was Adam's post in the other thread that was closed. The part I have in bold had to happen in patch 1.14 as without it companies that started out at insignificant or tiny basically couldn't get to small. But yeah it seems the caps overall were increased. In my current game EILL capped at 65 pop in the US on a Very Small broadcaster which does seem like it's biased too high. Closing this. As I've already stated, this is addressed in the next patch. The new system will be that the region the show is being held in is exempt, regions in the company's home area have a very high ceiling, minimum 55, and foreign regions have a lower cap, minimum 35. This addresses the issues raised and still performs the necessary task of stopping companies like EILL from gaining high levels of popularity in the US through a small broadcasting deal without ever visiting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 This was Adam's post in the other thread that was closed. The part I have in bold had to happen in patch 1.14 as without it companies that started out at insignificant or tiny basically couldn't get to small. But yeah it seems the caps overall were increased. In my current game EILL capped at 65 pop in the US on a Very Small broadcaster which does seem like it's biased too high. I've simmed forward 7 years with ROH on nothing but Honor Club which has Tiny coverage in every region. Outside of the US, they've capped at 45 popularity in every region but in the US they've grown all the way to 72. I'm not sure if there even is a cap on Tiny broadcasters anymore. Flip Gordon has been with them since day 1 and has hit 65 overness so that tells me the worker pop cap is gone as well. Why was this changed? This is complete madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabin357 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 I've simmed forward 7 years with ROH on nothing but Honor Club which has Tiny coverage in every region. Outside of the US, they've capped at 45 popularity in every region but in the US they've grown all the way to 72. I'm not sure if there even is a cap on Tiny broadcasters anymore. Flip Gordon has been with them since day 1 and has hit 65 overness so that tells me the worker pop cap is gone as well. Why was this changed? This is complete madness. I do extensive simulation, as I'm trying to balance broadcasters in my mod to be realistic & you're completely correct. I was excited by the changes introduced, but it seems something has happened & coverage does not matter as much now as I think it should. I have a company that somehow goes from brand new to medium size every 2-3 year sim because the Tiny coverage doesn't seem to cap properly. I have recreated over & over, so its not likely to be a fluke. Without this being properly addressed, any realism in a local to global save is not impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBigB Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 I've simmed forward 7 years with ROH on nothing but Honor Club which has Tiny coverage in every region. Outside of the US, they've capped at 45 popularity in every region but in the US they've grown all the way to 72. I'm not sure if there even is a cap on Tiny broadcasters anymore. Flip Gordon has been with them since day 1 and has hit 65 overness so that tells me the worker pop cap is gone as well. Why was this changed? This is complete madness. That would be expected based on what is currently in the handbook (as I believe ROH is US based): Player's Handbook -> Options -> Natural Growth Limits Regions in the company's home area have a relatively high ceiling (with a minimum of 55 even when there are less than 1,500 viewers), while foreign regions have a lower ceiling (35 being the minimum). Not saying it shouldn't be adjusted further but as I've stated in other threads the caps need to be set up in such a way that it doesn't prevent the intuitive growth that's basically outlined when you press the size criteria button. As I've said when they were first introduced it was virtually impossible for insignificant and tiny companies to hit small. I'm not sure if there were issues at other levels as I never tested it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 7, 2020 Author Share Posted July 7, 2020 That would be expected based on what is currently in the handbook (as I believe ROH is US based): Player's Handbook -> Options -> Natural Growth Limits Not saying it shouldn't be adjusted further but as I've stated in other threads the caps need to be set up in such a way that it doesn't prevent the intuitive growth that's basically outlined when you press the size criteria button. As I've said when they were first introduced it was virtually impossible for insignificant and tiny companies to hit small. I'm not sure if there were issues at other levels as I never tested it. When I read "home area" I thought it meant like Tri-State in this example, not the entire nation. I get it needed to be loosened a little for the tiny companies, but now they can just grow to whatever they want without the need to even increase their coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Questlove" data-cite="Questlove" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50793" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>When I read "home area" I thought it meant like Tri-State in this example, not the entire nation. I get it needed to be loosened a little for the tiny companies, but now they can just grow to whatever they want without the need to even increase their coverage.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, I was definitely reading that as one region rather than the entire nation. The new system seems to be a huge issue for realism.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabin357 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Questlove" data-cite="Questlove" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50793" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>When I read "home area" I thought it meant like Tri-State in this example, not the entire nation. I get it needed to be loosened a little for the tiny companies, but now they can just grow to whatever they want without the need to even increase their coverage.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I did too. </p><p> </p><p> Bottom line for me: this seems like it needs more tweaking, cause whatever the intent, it's not giving realistic results. Realistic results are most important thing since this is a simulation game.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBigB Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="sabin357" data-cite="sabin357" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50793" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> Realistic results are most important thing since this is a simulation game.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well I know a whole thread of people in the general discussion forum that would probably disagree with you (I'm not one of them). Since this is all governed by the Natural Growth Limits option and it's a drop-down where we currently have off, weak and full, I don't see why another level couldn't be added (extreme):</p><p> - lower overall caps.</p><p> - foreign regions have the lowest caps</p><p> - home "area" have slightly higher caps.</p><p> - home "region" has a higher cap (enough that it doesn't impede natural growth).</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="VBigB" data-cite="VBigB" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="50793" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well I know a whole thread of people in the general discussion forum that would probably disagree with you (I'm not one of them). Since this is all governed by the Natural Growth Limits option and it's a drop-down where we currently have off, weak and full, I don't see why another level couldn't be added (extreme):<p> - lower overall caps.</p><p> - foreign regions have the lowest caps</p><p> - home "area" have slightly higher caps.</p><p> - home "region" has a higher cap (enough that it doesn't impede natural growth).</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, that'd be cool too. I actually forgot there was a "weak" setting as well until last night which is even more frustrating to me because I don't know why what we have now wasn't integrated into that. I'm struggling to even think about how it could even be weaker than it is on the default setting.</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMichaelJordan Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 <p>Have this been address yet? </p><p> </p><p> In the mean time I’ll probably edit small broadcasters (like a YouTube) from tiny to no coverage lol</p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMichaelJordan Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Been doing some testing of the new popularity caps for broadcasters of small size and below and these seem to be the numbers: TINY COVERAGE Company pop cap - 30 Worker pop cap - 55 VERY SMALL COVERAGE (I couldn't get 100% conclusive numbers for this yet but I think these are accurate) Company pop cap - 55 Worker pop cap - 70 SMALL COVERAGE Company pop cap - 60 Worker pop cap - 75 Definitely better than before, but I think a few alterations would be good: TINY COVERAGE Company pop cap - 30 Worker pop cap - 40 (down from 55) VERY SMALL COVERAGE Company pop cap - 45 (down from 55) Worker pop cap - 55 (down from 70) SMALL COVERAGE Company pop cap - 60 Worker pop cap - 65 (down from 75) This would still allow you to get good exposure but highlight the importance to move on to bigger broadcasters and more importantly, brings the workers closer in line with their company caps to stop them from massively outgrowing who they're working for and getting enormous growth despite low viewership. What's everybody else's thoughts on this? Do you know how these match up with the natural growth limit at full? I haven’t had much time to test myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMichaelJordan Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Bumping this as it seems like the growth limits were actually lessened in 1.14 for some reason rather than made more strict. I'm seeing companies climb into the 50s again just on Tiny broadcasters with 5-10k viewers and I've already seen some workers grow past 55 so who even knows where the worker pop cap is now. I'm confused about why it was even added if it was going to be made pointless just one or two patches later. Could this actually be a bug since I don’t see any notes about this being tweaked in 1.14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBigB Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Could this actually be a bug since I don’t see any notes about this being tweaked in 1.14. It's this line from the 1.14 patch notes. There was more detail in another thread that I'm not going to hunt down. - Reworked the natural growth system in response to feedback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMichaelJordan Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 It's this line from the 1.14 patch notes. There was more detail in another thread that I'm not going to hunt down. Thanks, I missed that. I’m definitely curious of what feedback he was getting, maybe he went too generous in the “fix” Full should probably work how it did before the tweak and weak should probably be like it us now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Questlove Posted July 15, 2020 Author Share Posted July 15, 2020 Do you know how these match up with the natural growth limit at full? I haven’t had much time to test myself. Those numbers were with it turned on to Full when it first came out. I haven't really had time to test it properly since the change but from what I've seen companies have no problem climbing into the 60s-70s on Tiny coverage compared to the cap of 30 from before so the change is significant. I'll set up a proper test in the next few days when I get some free time if nobody else does. I really can't stress how much this bugs me. I feel like it removes any feeling of accomplishment from growing your company if you're set for life the second you get any coverage at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirMichaelJordan Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Those numbers were with it turned on to Full when it first came out. I haven't really had time to test it properly since the change but from what I've seen companies have no problem climbing into the 60s-70s on Tiny coverage compared to the cap of 30 from before so the change is significant. I'll set up a proper test in the next few days when I get some free time if nobody else does. I really can't stress how much this bugs me. I feel like it removes any feeling of accomplishment from growing your company if you're set for life the second you get any coverage at all. Cool. Hopefully this is adjusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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