TEW IX Developer's Journal Discussion Thread

[DJAPoster]

26 minutes ago, Astil said:

The first two kind look like he has lil horns coming out of his temples hehehe

Maybe he’s a heel! Lol

[Chikbot]

2 minutes ago, EdJames said:

The option is still there to use them. We now have the option to use the original style OR an AI style. 
The community can feed into both channels and everybody's preferences can be met. 

But, by buying the product, you are endorsing the use of AI since that's the default now.
TEW has pushed itself into the ethically grey area

[The Superman 3 of People]

Just now, Chikbot said:

TEW has pushed itself into the ethically grey area

Not a whole lot of grey from where I'm standing.

[Chikbot]

5 minutes ago, The Superman 3 of People said:

Not a whole lot of grey from where I'm standing.

This is more true, Adam has made a choice in how he wants to present the game unfortunately.

Had he made the usual renders the defaults that came with the game, I'd be fine with him shuffling the AI ones in on the side because they are not intrinsic to buying the game.
However as a long time supporter, even before Grey Dog, I don't think I'm ok with this choice at all..

[TheWho87]

24 minutes ago, Idolized said:

Currently in TEW 2020 the size/weight breakdowns are as follows:

• Very Small (Below 140)
• Small (140 - 180 pounds)
• Lightweight (180 - 230 pounds)
• Middleweight (230 - 260 pounds)
• Light Heavyweight (260 - 290 pounds)
• Heavyweight (290 - 320 pounds)
• Big Heavyweight (320 - 380 pounds)
• Super Heavyweight (Above 380 pounds)
• Giant (Special Cases)

If you look at the Mexican National Titles for (an extreme) example, you will see how the new true weights will come in handy

• Mexican National Featherweight Championship  (126 - 139 lbs)
• Mexican National Lightweight Championship  (139 - 150 lbs)
• Mexican National Cruiserweight Championship (170 - 180 lbs)
• Mexican National Welterweight Championship (170 - 190 lbs)
• Mexican National Middleweight Championship (181-192)
• Mexican National Light Heavyweight Championship (203 - 214 lbs)
• Mexican National Heavyweight Championship (231 lbs and above)

Under the old system, The Lightweight and Featherweight titles overlapped with “Very Small” (but easily fixed by bumping the Lightweight up to small). However, properly setting the Cruiserweight, Middleweight and Light Heavyweight titles is a lot trickier without the AI selecting workers to challenge/hold the belts that shouldn’t be.

In NJPW, the Junior Heavyweight Championship’s cutoff is 220, but as we all know - guys like Styles, Osprey, Nakamura and others that were under or on the fringe of that cutoff ended up as Heavyweight division stars and left the Jr title behind for good. In 2020, you would have to either set AJ, Osprey and Nakamura as Middleweights to properly get them to challenge for the IWGP Heavyweight Title, or allow middleweights to compete for it and end up with someone like Liger who was super over, but never a heavyweight constantly challenging and holding the belt on AI shows. Now, Setting a slight overlap on the weights of the belts should solve that issue (I would assume)

To use your own example, take out Big Heavyweight and Giant, adjust the difference between Heavyweight and Super Heavyweight, then make a series of height options in the same direction and it fixes the problem, it also means you don't have to go to micro managing levels of detail, for information that for building real world mods doesn't exist.

[Mammoth]

2 minutes ago, TheWho87 said:

To use your own example, take out Big Heavyweight and Giant, adjust the difference between Heavyweight and Super Heavyweight, then make a series of height options in the same direction and it fixes the problem, it also means you don't have to go to micro managing levels of detail, for information that for building real world mods doesn't exist.

If the information doesn't exist, how do you do it now? You give it a best guestimate, right? Well, that's all you need for this too. If someone challenges you and says "X should actually be Y", then you can change it. Apart from the work aspect, which you don't seem to be arguing, I don't see the problem here. 99% of players aren't going to be remotely bothered if a worker is 10 lbs heavier than they should be. I do real world modifications and I'm looking forward to giving people that level of detail. 🤷‍♂️

[Markw]

1 minute ago, Mammoth said:

If the information doesn't exist, how do you do it now? You give it a best guestimate, right? Well, that's all you need for this too. If someone challenges you and says "X should actually be Y", then you can change it. Apart from the work aspect, which you don't seem to be arguing, I don't see the problem here. 99% of players aren't going to be remotely bothered if a worker is 10 lbs heavier than they should be. I do real world modifications and I'm looking forward to giving people that level of detail. 🤷‍♂️

And if the converter gives an approximation of the height/weight then there isn't even any additional work for the characters for whom no height/weight information exists. Feels like a non-issue really.

[EdJames]

2 minutes ago, Markw said:

And if the converter gives an approximation of the height/weight then there isn't even any additional work for the characters for whom no height/weight information exists. Feels like a non-issue really.

Didn't Adam already confirm this was the case in the release notes?

[Shianne_EB]

1 hour ago, Markw said:

Someone with a £220-odd a year copy of photoshop could very easily add sunglasses and a jacket to the Adam Matravers render, we've had alt threads with people doing just that for as long as I can remember. It's hardly a fair comparison to say we can't age Daz renders (which the creator could easily do if they desired by the way) and then rather than age the character you've found with AI just stick glasses and a jacket on them and say 'look it's so much easier'. Age that man 10, 20 years if that's the point you want to make, because all you've done there is make the same kind of alt in photoshop that people have been making for Daz renders for decades.

Daz is free to download, and has a number of reasonable free and cheap assets if you're willing to look around and wait for the right sales. I just think, on a personal level, it's really sad that the decision's been made to move away from the already built up community of people who spend money and their free time to make renders for this game that they're clearly very passionate about. That's something that's pretty rare for a sim game of this size to have, and trading it for the same AI art style that everyone else is using in their games at the moment just feels like an own goal to me. For me it'll just make the Cornellverse feel souless, but hopefully there'll be enough committed Daz renderers to keep that style alive.

Mark spitting the truths out here. 

Edited July 3 by Shianne_EB

[Markw]

3 minutes ago, EdJames said:

Didn't Adam already confirm this was the case in the release notes?

Yeah it's in the journal I just didn't want to assume that Who had read that bit, because I'd understand the complaint more if he hadn't 😅

[Yuzu Adagio]

22 minutes ago, Chikbot said:

This is more true, Adam has made a choice in how he wants to present the game unfortunately.

Had he made the usual renders the defaults that came with the game, I'd be fine with him shuffling the AI ones in on the side because they are not intrinsic to buying the game.
However as a long time supporter, even before Grey Dog, I don't think I'm ok with this choice at all..

see it's kinda the reverse for me

If this was baked into the game itself (like it would be in most, less modular games) it'd be a hard no from me.  It being something that I can immediately delete, makes it something I might be able to rationalize.  Might.  Jury's still out, I'll probably wrestle with it in my head for a few days.

[TheWho87]

1 minute ago, Mammoth said:

If the information doesn't exist, how do you do it now? You give it a best guestimate, right? Well, that's all you need for this too. If someone challenges you and says "X should actually be Y", then you can change it. Apart from the work aspect, which you don't seem to be arguing, I don't see the problem here. 99% of players aren't going to be remotely bothered if a worker is 10 lbs heavier than they should be. I do real world modifications and I'm looking forward to giving people that level of detail. 🤷‍♂️

How I do it now is if a worker is between X and Y then they go into the category that ranges from X to Y, simple, I can't see why that system can't be used for heights too. Adding a specific height and weight just seems like extra pointless steps, especally when how rarely that information exists, when I attempted to convert my mod into another game, one of the biggest issues was trying to correct it's conversion of TEW's combined height weight system into a similar seperate system I'm describing, it turned into more hassle than it was worth.

 

[jesterx7769]

On 7/1/2024 at 11:00 AM, Astil said:

Do they mean the more "set" based pre shows. Or like Talking Smack.

Also pretty good first feature there.

Yup you understood what I was saying.

Not interview angles, but actual show types. 

Talking Smack/The Bump/RAW Talk/This week in WWE/AEW All Access/ anyones youtube shows that are officially part of the promotion (Renee Paquette interviews/RJ City interviews). Or the shows UFC does to promote their fights which are not part of the actual PPV event.

Just more so a Changning of the times. I create these type of shows in my games to help promote PPVs so would just be nice for it to be more integrated and similar to real life. So much exists now outside of the actual TV show time slot itself now.

[Dalton]

Big fan of the real heights & weights!

[Alienated]

1 hour ago, Markw said:

Someone with a £220-odd a year copy of photoshop could very easily add sunglasses and a jacket to the Adam Matravers render, we've had alt threads with people doing just that for as long as I can remember. It's hardly a fair comparison to say we can't age Daz renders (which the creator could easily do if they desired by the way) and then rather than age the character you've found with AI just stick glasses and a jacket on them and say 'look it's so much easier'. Age that man 10, 20 years if that's the point you want to make, because all you've done there is make the same kind of alt in photoshop that people have been making for Daz renders for decades.

Daz is free to download, and has a number of reasonable free and cheap assets if you're willing to look around and wait for the right sales. I just think, on a personal level, it's really sad that the decision's been made to move away from the already built up community of people who spend money and their free time to make renders for this game that they're clearly very passionate about. That's something that's pretty rare for a sim game of this size to have, and trading it for the same AI art style that everyone else is using in their games at the moment just feels like an own goal to me. For me it'll just make the Cornellverse feel souless, but hopefully there'll be enough committed Daz renderers to keep that style alive.

Very excited about the features that have been released and sure the game is going to be excellent, certainly wouldn't stop me buying it.

AI has breathed a new life into this game. We now can generate thousands upon thousands of unique characters with ease. If I think of new gimmick, say "masked wrestler with a gambler casino theme", I can go generate that right now. A year or so ago I'd have to either request or pay someone to do it for me, or learn a brand new art skill that I have neither the time nor motivation to learn. I love the Daz renders as much as the next guy, but AI usage can transform a game like this and keep it fresh for decades upon decades of in-game time with free worker generation and gimmick changes. Look at the base TEW 2020 game, the character styles are all over the place because the renders are from different decades by different people.

If the demand is there the manual renders will live on, but expecting people to download Daz to learn to render and wait for cheap assets to go on sale is not remotely realistic.

[EdJames]

7 minutes ago, Shianne_EB said:

Mark spitting the truths out here. 

Your renders are wicked, BTW. As are so many others - I always loved J_Silver's the most back when I used to play a lot.

But I'd love for one person to sit and do all 3,000+ in one visual style so that it can feel more cohesive as a game world. I always struggled building rosters or flicking through cards I've booked where I was looking at 10-20 different visual styles, character by character.

 

[Chikbot]

4 minutes ago, Yuzu Adagio said:

see it's kinda the reverse for me

If this was baked into the game itself (like it would be in most, less modular games) it'd be a hard no from me.  It being something that I can immediately delete, makes it something I might be able to rationalize.  Might.  Jury's still out, I'll probably wrestle with it in my head for a few days.

I almost did agree with this. However, my thought process is this

"If you're purchasing the game, you are purchasing the AI".  The Daz renders are essentially free in terms of how they are implimented. The game is directly profiting off of the use of AI. 

[Pteroid]

I swear to god if these AI portraits make Minor Annoyance look like a plausible human being, I riot.

[Chriswok]

I just hope the mod community can return to form. 

[AndersonSilva]

How are the loading times? That has always been a huge pain in the ass with super fast processors not being able to run sim fast.

[Dalton]

9 minutes ago, TheWho87 said:

How I do it now is if a worker is between X and Y then they go into the category that ranges from X to Y, simple, I can't see why that system can't be used for heights too. Adding a specific height and weight just seems like extra pointless steps, especally when how rarely that information exists, when I attempted to convert my mod into another game, one of the biggest issues was trying to correct it's conversion of TEW's combined height weight system into a similar seperate system I'm describing, it turned into more hassle than it was worth.

 

Unless I'm misreading something here, it sounds like you are already looking up heights & weights to place them in a category? So what would the issue be with having even more accurate info? If you can't find it anywhere you can always approximate like you currently do.

[Shianne_EB]

9 minutes ago, TheWho87 said:

How I do it now is if a worker is between X and Y then they go into the category that ranges from X to Y, simple, I can't see why that system can't be used for heights too. Adding a specific height and weight just seems like extra pointless steps, especally when how rarely that information exists, when I attempted to convert my mod into another game, one of the biggest issues was trying to correct it's conversion of TEW's combined height weight system into a similar seperate system I'm describing, it turned into more hassle than it was worth.

 

This is a really roundabout way to say you already look up the heights and weights of people. 

 

And if that's the case -- how is it possibly any more work now than it was before? 

[TheWho87]

3 minutes ago, Dalton said:

Unless I'm misreading something here, it sounds like you are already looking up heights & weights to place them in a category? So what would the issue be with having even more accurate info? If you can't find it anywhere you can always approximate like you currently do.

3 minutes ago, Shianne_EB said:

This is a really roundabout way to say you already look up the heights and weights of people. 

 

And if that's the case -- how is it possibly any more work now than it was before? 

Firstly it's having to do that all again, secondly and the major factor here is that for a extremely high majority, that information isn't available, so the option of having to put then in a grouped option (between X and Y) rather than a specific option (is it X) would be a better and more convenient option.

[d12345]

56 minutes ago, Chikbot said:

But, by buying the product, you are endorsing the use of AI since that's the default now.
TEW has pushed itself into the ethically grey area

I'm so confused about this sentiment. As a long time C-Verse player, consistent look and feel of default renders has always been tough to achieve. Even with mods having all current, past, and future workers rendered in a similar style (and free pictures) has not been done.

We want thousands of unique worker images but push back against using a new tool that allows that to be a reasonable task?

Edited July 3 by d12345

[Idolized]

19 minutes ago, TheWho87 said:

How I do it now is if a worker is between X and Y then they go into the category that ranges from X to Y, simple, I can't see why that system can't be used for heights too. Adding a specific height and weight just seems like extra pointless steps, especally when how rarely that information exists, when I attempted to convert my mod into another game, one of the biggest issues was trying to correct it's conversion of TEW's combined height weight system into a similar seperate system I'm describing, it turned into more hassle than it was worth.

 

I don’t think how the data converts to other games should be of major concern to the developer be fair