loyalty (questions/discussion)

[thedraem41]

[QUOTE=Akki;140638]Personally, I don't think it's the culture that prevents people from being loyal here and them being loyal in Japan. I think it's the state of the wrestling business. From what I can gauge in Japan, a wrestling fan there will know about just about every promotion in the country. Therefore, it's not a thing about more exposure, especially for the promotions you mentioned. Here, you can get your first work in a promotion like APW and few outside of those who follow the promotion will have heard of it, much less you. That is, until you start getting up to RoH (still very few), TNA (more but still little), and WWE. I think it's less about the money here than about the exposure.[/QUOTE] This is exactly true, in Japan almost every promotion has a tv deal. A great deal are on the same network. Wrestling in Japan does not have a big stain on it as it does in America. The promotions compete, but you see talent wrestle on other promotions shows frequently. Basically, in Japan the most talented gets over. Here, it's just whoever is in the WWE. Almost every single wrestler that goes through the Dojo in Japan, has the opprotunity of getting exposed on national tv when they graduate. [QUOTE=The Jobber;140630]Benoit's contract was coming up and as you said he was unhappy with the WWE and his push, they offered him a big contract and guess what, he signed it. And I don't blame him, it is a buissness and most wrestlers don't make much money, you gotta make what you can while you can.[/QUOTE] Well, and look what Benoit did. He took a break, I'm pretty sure he's almost fed up with them. Basically, he's taking their money and just sitting on it. Which, I can't blame him..I seriously wish he would have left. [QUOTE=Hawk1665;140634]Comparing loyalty in the US to loyalty in Japan is almost night and day. For one, if a worker is loyal to a promotion in the US, nine times out of ten it's to the current booker. Dreamer was loyal to Heyman, do you really think that if someone had taken over ECW in 1999, Dreamer woulda stayed? In Japan, it doesn't matter who the head booker is, because the loyalty is to the *PROMOTION*. A great current example is New Japan Pro-Wrestling. They've went through bunches of headbookers/managers/owners/whatever you want to call them in the last few years, but outside of a few guys the roster has stayed remarkably stable. Some people left, most didn't, and while New Japan does pay well it's not simply that. It's how New Japan brings people up through the system, they litterally have "NEW JAPAN IS #1!" beaten into them until staying with New Japan is the only thing that really makes sense to most of them. Yuji Nagata could be a main eventer for any promotion in Japan. He could hold ANY title in Japan...but he stays with New Japan despite the horrible pushes due to the fact that he's loyal, and he considers himself a New Japan trueborn, and that is where he wants to end his career, exactly where it started. You just cannot compare the two. Loyalty to the promotion may exist in the US, but it is EXTREMLY rare.[/QUOTE] Good point, but the Inoki's are still a solid force in New Japan. In America, you will hardly ever see someone be loyal. It's just a different atmosphere, and wrestling isn't at the point where small companies are on National TV. So, most wrestlers want to get the money and the exposure, that's why some wrestlers flock to WWE and their style.

[Genadi]

[QUOTE=Akki;140638]Personally, I don't think it's the culture that prevents people from being loyal here and them being loyal in Japan. I think it's the state of the wrestling business. From what I can gauge in Japan, a wrestling fan there will know about just about every promotion in the country. Therefore, it's not a thing about more exposure, especially for the promotions you mentioned. Here, you can get your first work in a promotion like APW and few outside of those who follow the promotion will have heard of it, much less you. That is, until you start getting up to RoH (still very few), TNA (more but still little), and WWE. I think it's less about the money here than about the exposure.[/QUOTE] No, it's culture. If you still think otherwise I beg you do some research on the history of both US & Japan scenes AJ not joining WWE because of styles is represented in 05

[thedraem41]

There did used to be promotion loyalty in the states, so I'm not sure what you mean.

[Genadi]

[QUOTE=thedraem41;140643]There did used to be promotion loyalty in the states, so I'm not sure what you mean.[/QUOTE] When, even when the territories existed was there loyalty in the states? If there was, there wouldn't be a WWE, how the hell do you think Vince signed his workers? Every major wrestler he signed were headliners at their respective feds yet they left, why???? MONEY!!!

[thedraem41]

Before the WWF it was nowhere near as bad.

[AlaskanHero]

No, it was. During the territory days, the early ones anyways, workers stayed in a promotion for a few months, made some money and a name for themselves, then left before they wore out their welcome. I'm pretty sure workers didn't spend their entire careers in a single promotion during the territory days. And Chris Benoit isn't sitting at home because he's unhappy (well, that's not the sole reason anyways). He's at home because he's recovering from surgery and is -supposedly- returning in the fall. Finally, it probably is the different cultures in each country that is responsible for loyalty being predominant there and, for the most part, non-existant here. The Japanese have different values then us Americans, not much else to it. Now, to get this thread back on some semblance of a track, I wonder how this is going to affect the CornellVerse's Japanese scene. Will every worker in, say, PGHW be loyal to that company or will it only be for guys like Kunomasu and Musashibo? How quickly will they develop? Will the Heyman Effect return to prevent a big company from signing a worker loyal to another company to a verbal contract?

[Lukiep8]

[quote]Some people left, most didn't, and while New Japan does pay well it's not simply that. It's how New Japan brings people up through the system, they litterally have "NEW JAPAN IS #1!" beaten into them until staying with New Japan is the only thing that really makes sense to most of them.[/quote] New Japan actually, are the only wrestling company in Japan to pay the lucrative 'one million dollar contract'. Right now their contracts had to be downgraded, and NOAH currently pays a little bit more to their higher stars, but overall, New Japan pay the biggest contracts, because, well, they are the biggest company. [QUOTE]This is exactly true, in Japan almost every promotion has a tv deal. A great deal are on the same network. Wrestling in Japan does not have a big stain on it as it does in America. The promotions compete, but you see talent wrestle on other promotions shows frequently. Basically, in Japan the most talented gets over. Here, it's just whoever is in the WWE. Almost every single wrestler that goes through the Dojo in Japan, has the opprotunity of getting exposed on national tv when they graduate.[/quote] The reason every promotion is on TV, is because wrestling over there is MUCH bigger then America. Even Pro-Wrestling KAGEKI get there spots on the Fukuoka tv. But the only promotions on National TV, are New Japan and NOAH. Everyone else is on Fighting TV! Samurai, or GAORA Sports. [QUOTE]Good point, but the Inoki's are still a solid force in New Japan. In America, you will hardly ever see someone be loyal. It's just a different atmosphere, and wrestling isn't at the point where small companies are on National TV. So, most wrestlers want to get the money and the exposure, that's why some wrestlers flock to WWE and their style.[/QUOTE] Antonio Inoki has absolutely no power anymore, as he is basically OWNED by Yukes. Simon Inoki has some power, but a lot of his ideas have been annexed, especially after the whole Lesnar debacle.

[thedraem41]

Surely what Antonio has to say still holds weight, that's what I meant. You are right, wrestling is much bigger over there. Everytime a wrestler leaves a company it doesn't mean he wasn't loyal either.

[Lukiep8]

Antonio Inoki has absolutely ZERO weight or credibility. So far EVERY idea he has had, has been turned down by Yukes. His planned show at the Sumo Hall later in the year was cancelled by Yukes aswell.

[Genadi]

Lukies spot on, the last thing Antonio had anything to do with was bringing Lesnar in and that sunk em even further into debt and buried Antonio. I thought Simon had lost his spot on the commitee too like a month ago Lukie, or was it just demoted? This debate has gotten too long :confused: It shouldn't be

[Hawk1665]

In regards to my post, for most of the New Japan roster while they do make good money, it's not just that. With how NOAH and AJPW are structured you could easily make just as much money in both of them (Granted, with AJPW you would have to add in another promotion...) and have likely stronger pushes, not to mention DSE's huge contracts for HUSTLE. It's mainly loyalty. While some such as Yoshie have left the promotion, the vast majority stay because they either know they won't get as good of a deal anywhere else, want to be in the #1 promotion (technically), or they have way too much loyalty. It's like that in NOAH where everyone is pretty much completely loyal to Misawa, and used to be in AJPW aswell. No one in AJPW is loyal to the promotion, because they've only been there for a few years. Only exception is Fuchi, and possibly Kea. Kawada, their most loyal worker they finally ran off. Kojima, Hayashi & Co would be loyal to Muto, not AJPW. My point with Nagata, is that every promotion in Japan would throw money at him, and he could EASILY make as much, if not more then freelancers like Sasaki, Takayama, Suzuki & Tenryu do. He doesn't leave because he has insanely high loyalty, regardless of his push or stature within the promotion. So in 2k7 terms, Nagata would have abnormally high loyalty to NJPW, despit eeverything they've done to him. From throwing him in shoots, to failed heel turns, to never getting another IWGP title run. ...Sorry about that.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=weirdo_man;140427]Yeah, uh, to go back with what Anubis has been saying about America changing, that's not going to happen. Right now in American culture, money drives everything. Most people don't give a **** about anyone other than A-number-one, and even the death of Vince McMahon isn't going to change that, actually, it would probably make it worse in the wrestling industry. Very few workers become loyal to prmotions for any reason other than that they've been taken from nothing to a huge star, and even then if someone offers them more money they're going to *usually* accept the offer. I don't see how you could think that all, or even a small portion of American workers, would work under the same loyalty system as the Japanese. This is paralleled in the blue collar world of both countries. Factory workers in America, for the most part, don't care about the company that they work for, they care about the money that they get paid, and they try to cut as many corners as possible. However, in Japan, workers take pride in their product, and if they do a poor job, it brings shame on them, even if their supervisor is also to blame. They strive to break quotas and to improve the production numbers and value of their company. So, to say that the society in America is going to be any different from blue collar to wrestling, would be as ridiculous as saying that the society of Japan is going to be different from their blue collar to their wrestling. I dont' know if you can see what we're all trying to say Anubis, but in America, the almighty dollar is.. well, almighty.[/QUOTE] This is a great example. But unfortunately, many folks won't see that since to admit that the above is true is to admit that they themselves can be like that. Hell, I know I'm like that for sure. Panix, when I said what I said, I meant it. It's not foolish, it's realistic. You can carry idealism and say it's possible and I can say unicorns are possible too. Doesn't make them REAL. The cultural divide is IMMENSE between Japan and the US. We have to be somewhat mercenary considering the fact that we spend BILLIONS on stupid crap every single day and always have. Don't get me wrong though, the Japanese do it too (how much does a pair of 'vintage' jeans or sneakers go for there as opposed to in the US?) but not nearly at the same rate. But what strikes me as funny is all the folks who cry for 'more realism' in the game, totally misconstruing this feature. It's hilarious! :)

[D. Boons Ghost]

[QUOTE=CarlitoCoool;140645]When, even when the territories existed was there loyalty in the states? If there was, there wouldn't be a WWE, how the hell do you think Vince signed his workers? Every major wrestler he signed were headliners at their respective feds yet they left, why???? MONEY!!![/QUOTE] Um... tell me again when Nick Bockwinkel worked as an active wrestler for the WWF? As a world champion with the AWA at the time McMahon started the national expansion, you don't think he was offered something? Heck - Bockwinkel even turned down an NWA World title run because he didn't want the travel schedule and was comfortable in the AWA. How else, besides loyalty, could that be replicated in-game? There are no 'will only work 100 dates a year' checks, as far as I know. Or Ric Flair. Had Jim Crockett remained in control of WCW, Flair would never have left due to his loyalty to the Crockett family. If I am not mistaken, he has said so himself over the years. While I agree that the vast majority of American workers would have gone with the money, stating that everyone would (or did) is a bit of a generalization - especially in the territorial days. It was only when their home bases were wiped out that a lot of people jumped to the Big Money Promotions.

[Adam Ryland]

Just judging from your wording, neither of those would fall under the Loyalty feature though. You said Bockwinkel didn't go because he was comfortable in AWA and didn't want the travel schedule. That sounds to me like he didn't like the schedule of WWF, not that he wouldn't even consider leaving AWA. And Flair, as you said, was loyal to the Crockets, not the promotion itself. As was explained earlier, true loyalty would be to the promotion itself, irrespective of who was in charge. You could simulate this by giving him a loyalty relationship to one of the Crockets, it wouldn't require the Loyalty feature itself. I think I'm probably going to rename the feature before release, as it seems a large portion of people are not able to tell the difference between literal loyalty and what this feature actually means.

[Dolfanar]

Adam, i understand that you intend this to be more of a "Home base" than a loyalty feature, but it seems to me that you are using two completely different methods to evaluate wether a wrestler is "loyal" or not. Case A American wrestler chooses to stay with promotion A because he enjoys the schedule, is paid well, is used well, and has creative input. Case B Japanese Wrestler chooses to stay with a promotion because they trained him, they pay him well, and treat him with respect. how is it that Wrestler A is not loyal and wrestler B is? Strictly because they are Japanese? if the feature is NOT loyalty, but rather "Home Base", how is Nick Bockwinkel's home base promotion NOT the AWA? because he also worked elsewhere? ThHaving a home base and working elsewhere are not mutually exclusive as you have stated. The cases for Freelance are even greater. The Funks, and Abby as stated above are *perfect* examples of freelance workers. It seems to me that the only differance between Japanese wrestlers and American ones are the *reasons* they are loyal to a promotion (or why they have a "home base"), not the capacity to be loyal itself...

[Adam Ryland]

I'll try and clear things up as best I can, simply by reducing it to key points. * We're not saying non-Japanese workers cannot have loyalty. However, the loyalty that exists elsewhere is already simulated in the game (by relationships with owners, and by the fact people don't jump from one promotion to another without a good reason) and so does not need a new specific feature. * What we are saying is that there is a very unique, specific, cultural type of loyalty that is completely unique to Japan, and was not previous incorporated in TEW, and therefore needs to be a special feature. Let's refer to it as "puro-loyalty" for clarity. "Puro-Loyalty" is where a worker has it virtually "hard wired" into him that his promotion is the be-all and end-all, and it is almost unthinkable for him to consider leaving. To reply to your point, Nick B wouldn't have puro-loyalty to AWA because the concept is totally alien to the US, it's just not the way anybody thinks. Or to put it another way, he stayed because he wanted to, not because leaving would offend his principles. * As it has been explained to me, Japanese-style freelancing (let's refer to it as puro-freelancing for clarity) is more of a mental state than anything. It's where someone specifically rejects the very notion of committing themselves to one promotion, and so will consider working for anyone. As I understand it, the reason that Abdullah (for example) wouldn't fall under this category is that he worked for lots of places because he didn't want to be controlled by a single promoter, not because he had any fundamental disagreement with the concept of settling down. So in terms of effect, it'd be exactly the same, working for lots of separate feds, but it's the mental state behind it that makes it unique to Japan. That's how I understand it, based on my conversations with Lukie. I'm sure he, or one of the other puro experts, will be able to chip in with more details if necessary.

[NickC13573]

Thanx Adam, for the clarification. But you said that it would be allowed in the USA. Is there like region tick boxes for which areas this feature can be used? I would love to use some Puro-Loyalty for like HHH or (For my own promotion) The Elementals, and Jerrelle Clark

[Jacko00]

I understand, I might let other countries have it just to see who becomes loyal to who.

[Sartagis]

[QUOTE=CarlitoCoool;140676]Lukies spot on, the last thing Antonio had anything to do with was bringing Lesnar in and that sunk em even further into debt and buried Antonio. I thought Simon had lost his spot on the commitee too like a month ago Lukie, or was it just demoted? [/QUOTE] Nothing was done to punish Simon :mad: He's still President or whatever his title is. They made him fly back to Japan (as he was in America trying to get Brock to show up along with other things), had a big meeting with him, yukes and NJPW representatives sceduled and then wrestlers (most notably Masahiro Chono) and fans alike started calling for his imidiate resignation and/or dismassal. But nothing seemed to happen. Though since then based on looking at booking and such his influence has died down. As well as almost every comment he has made in the press about certain things happening has so far not happened. So it seems his ideas are being shot down too. He should be gone things would be alot better there if he was. [QUOTE=Dolfanar;140710]Case A American wrestler chooses to stay with promotion A because he enjoys the schedule, is paid well, is used well, and has creative input. Case B Japanese Wrestler chooses to stay with a promotion because they trained him, they pay him well, and treat him with respect.[/QUOTE] Because in most cases the japanese guy isn't staying for the pay or really the respect even. I mean look at the example of Nagata. It's the pure fact that it is his home and disrepecting or betraying your home and family is unfathomable in the most part. As Lukie stated before these guys LIVE in the Dojo's and alot of time's start training in mid to early teens. The promotion is their family. I mean look at Katsuhiko Nakajima, started training with Kensuke and then they bloody well adopted him. This is changing fast in Japan as well though as each year more and more people splinter off of their promotion because they feel mistreated in some way and start up their own thing (NOAH, King's Road, Big Mouth Loud, the new MUGA group, The whole Toryumon/Dragon Gate/El Dorado/ Ultimo Dragon Gym, etc). But as Adam stated this is more a feature that will help correctly simulate the puro side of things as the NA side of things is pretty well set up. So promotional loyalty is starting to waver there as well. Though thats due to the wrestling scene growing in size (number of promotions wise not fan base wise) and Japanese culture changing. And with the influx of younger and younger wrestlers there morals and values are replacing the old. Also a good place to look at how the promotion "family/home" thing just look at the fans. In Japan when ya ask a say NJ fan why he didn't go to a show his likely response is that NJ betrayed his loyalty by not delivering (on say a certain wrestler appearance) adn they have lost his trust in them to put on a good and promised show. Then look at how promotions talk about having to regain the fans trust and loyalty in certain regions. They treat even there fans with the same integrety. They do give aways, have their wrestlers sell the tickets at ticket booths. Go on blood drives. Not that no american feds do that it's just more common practice over there. Anyways it doesn't even matter how you see loyalty in the states or in Japan Adam has said it will be available to be turned on or off in different regions so just turn it on where ya want it.

[Dolfanar]

[QUOTE=Sartagis;140844]Anyways it doesn't even matter how you see loyalty in the states or in Japan Adam has said it will be available to be turned on or off in different regions so just turn it on where ya want it.[/QUOTE] Oh, i agree. And i hope no one (particularly Adam) feels like they are being picked on and attacked. Because this option appears to be binary (on/off) for each region it will be completely user defined. It's just a fascinating debate, imo. I think I see where Adam is coming from on the "puro-loyalty" thing. I think what others are saying (particularly someone like DBoon who is doing a historical mod) is that something like puro loyalty appears to be a great "cheat" to do things like make sure that (again) someone like Nick Bockwinkel is very, very likely to stay a long time with the AWA *without* having to give him a lifetime contract, which was the only way to do it in TEW2005. Even the case of someone like Bret Hart now, you can have him contracted to Stampede, loyal to stampede (so he doesn't leave), but he will actually be able to work around the continent. As for Freelance, as I understand it guy's like Stansen, Abby and Funk really did "specifically reject the very notion of committing themselves to one promotion", and thus never stayed anywhere for more than a couple months at a time.

[Sartagis]

[QUOTE=Dolfanar;140876]I think I see where Adam is coming from on the "puro-loyalty" thing. I think what others are saying (particularly someone like DBoon who is doing a historical mod) is that something like puro loyalty appears to be a great "cheat" to do things like make sure that (again) someone like Nick Bockwinkel is very, very likely to stay a long time with the AWA *without* having to give him a lifetime contract, which was the only way to do it in TEW2005. Even the case of someone like Bret Hart now, you can have him contracted to Stampede, loyal to stampede (so he doesn't leave), but he will actually be able to work around the continent.[/QUOTE] I think Adam's point on that is though that while it might help acurately simulate a few wrestlers in say North America, it needs to be on in that area to apply to them and doing that will make it effect EVERYONE in that region and it would become (through random generation) more wide spread thus making your game inaccurate. That being the case it's more accurate in the long run to use the already existing options (like relationships) to simulate things like Bockwinkle. One of those things were it's pros and cons either way and it just a decision as to which con you would rather.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=Remianen;140686] Panix, when I said what I said, I meant it. It's not foolish, it's realistic. You can carry idealism and say it's possible and I can say unicorns are possible too. Doesn't make them REAL. The cultural divide is IMMENSE between Japan and the US. We have to be somewhat mercenary considering the fact that we spend BILLIONS on stupid crap every single day and always have. Don't get me wrong though, the Japanese do it too (how much does a pair of 'vintage' jeans or sneakers go for there as opposed to in the US?) but not nearly at the same rate. But what strikes me as funny is all the folks who cry for 'more realism' in the game, totally misconstruing this feature. It's hilarious! :)[/QUOTE] So you are telling me that a unicorn is more likely to exist than a western wrestler who isn't motivated by greed? Thats a bit harsh isnt it? :D I have to admit having read through this whole thread (which has been fascinating btw) i will not be having loyalty turned on in the US. I have to admit i actually mis-understood the feature a little bit. I do think that this being in there is going to make running a Japanese fed very, very challenging! Obviously though there is a great deal of varied opinions on here. So the fact you can choose to have this feature on in other countrys if you want it is awesome - if for no other reason then it will be interesting to see what happens when you sim through! Im sure, as always, people like TCP, D. Boon and Forlan will 'test out' loyalty and see if it makes sense for US promotions in there mods. Although from my experience of playing real world mods. With the exception of when companys go up or down a level there isnt that much change in rosters anyway tbh, which is good in a way, because a lot of feds keep a regular 'core' of talent and i think this is well represented by the AI.

[Lukiep8]

[quote]In regards to my post, for most of the New Japan roster while they do make good money, it's not just that. With how NOAH and AJPW are structured you could easily make just as much money in both of them (Granted, with AJPW you would have to add in another promotion...) and have likely stronger pushes, not to mention DSE's huge contracts for HUSTLE.[/quote] All Japan wouldn't be paying their wrestlers ANYWHERE near as much. They are the fifth biggest promotion in Japan, behind New Japan, NOAH, Dragon Gate and Big Japan. To say they would be getting equal money is crazy. With how NOAH is structured, it would be career suicide to make a jump to the promotion. The term glass ceiling is used for the WWE, NOAH has an iron ceiling. The way the whole promotion is structured, for a wrestler to go there fulltime, they will be placed in the midcard chaos, of nothingness. HUSTLE is completely different, because it is not even pro-wrestling, PLUS, the likelyhood of them continuing if DSE collapses, is about 2%. [QUOTE]It's mainly loyalty. While some such as Yoshie have left the promotion, the vast majority stay because they either know they won't get as good of a deal anywhere else, want to be in the #1 promotion (technically), or they have way too much loyalty. It's like that in NOAH where everyone is pretty much completely loyal to Misawa, and used to be in AJPW aswell. No one in AJPW is loyal to the promotion, because they've only been there for a few years. Only exception is Fuchi, and possibly Kea. Kawada, their most loyal worker they finally ran off. Kojima, Hayashi & Co would be loyal to Muto, not AJPW.[/QUOTE] Yoshie is still loyal to New Japan. Contract negotiations turned him away from the group, as he wanted to freelance, and grow as a wrestler. He asked New Japan PERMISSION TO DO SO, and then promised to return when he is a stronger wrestler. How is THAT, not loyalty? Same thing with Kawada. He still had loyalty with AJPW, but realised that it has changed to a point where he is not needed there anymore. He decided to freelance, but because of his loyalty, agrees to work with the promotion. He will have his retirement match there, no matter what happens. But you are spot on with the loyalty to Mutoh. Kojima has even stated that he would jump back to New Japan (because of his loyalty with them), if it wasn't for Mutoh being in charge of All Japan. [QUOTE]My point with Nagata, is that every promotion in Japan would throw money at him, and he could EASILY make as much, if not more then freelancers like Sasaki, Takayama, Suzuki & Tenryu do. He doesn't leave because he has insanely high loyalty, regardless of his push or stature within the promotion. So in 2k7 terms, Nagata would have abnormally high loyalty to NJPW, despit eeverything they've done to him. From throwing him in shoots, to failed heel turns, to never getting another IWGP title run.[/QUOTE] While Nagata has been mistreated to some extent, his current way, he is heading to be the new Chono of New Japan. He IS New Japan, that is why he won't jump. I doubt he will earn as much in NOAH, who are really the only other promotion who could pay him similar amounts, and I doubt he would succeed there either. His style is completely different. Talk about Nagata in that sense, also talk about Akiyama in that sense, who is similar to Nagata (the two are very good friends) but has been shafted by NOAH since day 1.

[That Crazy Guy]

And he ends his birthday with pure awesomeness.

[D. Boons Ghost]

Could the existing relationships be tightened down then? I can not speak for anyone else's game, but loyalty relationships to owners and head bookers didn't seem to do much in the long run. Flair, in particular, would be dumped to the curb once contract renewals came up, despite the fact he had loyalty relationships with all the key men in his home base promotion. Thanks for the consideration.