TeemuFoundation

Yes, I know there are products that penalize different segment lengths differently. That's not really the issue. Penalties are fine. I want the products to give me boundaries and a framework. I don't even hate the pre-set products like a lot of people do. Boundaries force creativity. I just feel like segment lengths, by themselves, are way too arbitrary of a target for penalties, which leads to a lot of issues with my personal immersion. I emphasize that this is from my personal point of view. And the game is also not made for me, specifically, and I respect that. I simply stated my view on the issue. Maybe it will be taken into account in a future game, maybe not.

Yea, I agree with all of this. I wish I didn't know anything about the TEW mechanics, honestly. All it does is ruin the experience and take away the fun. But it's my own fault. No one forced me to read the forums. And also yea, I know the gamey aspects have been a part of the series from the start pretty much. And of course, it IS a game, so let's stay fair here. I think it'd be asking a bit too much to ask for it to be programmed to, you know, not be a game. But I guess the true nature of the software should be hidden a little bit more. Kinda like wrestling; kayfabe is dead, but we still want to get lost in the lie as best we can.

<p>When it comes to angles, I feel like a good way to go would be to have the entertainment skills work sort of like "angle stamina"; the higher the ratings, the longer a worker could go in a promo potentially. There would always be a risk of losing a crowd. The chance would start at (for example's sake) 1% at 1 minute. The worker's entertainment skills would then work as a modifier; if the skills are particularly low, the chance goes up. The chance would also go up at every added minute. At the 20 minute mark or so, the base % of boredom would be at like 50%. Then possible low skill modifiers would be added. To the point where, unless the worker is particularly skilled at cutting promos, the % would effectively be 100%.</p><p> </p><p> Added modifiers would be stuff like are there other workers involved, how much actually goes on in the angle, is there a hot storyline attached, is there a shocking turn/reveal, etc. involved.</p><p> </p><p> Stuff like that. Just a rough idea.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49006" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Colour the 'penalties' related to caps in white, instead of red. Maybe then people will take them less seriously. The player's eye would be drawn to the segment rating, where it belongs, instead of the red text that makes them think the segment flopped. <p> </p><p> I like the limitations. Suggested as they are. They give the different products different flavours. I definitely watch a lot of wrestling where I think "This is really good... but I would have liked it better if it ended 5 minutes ago." and "That was an awesome 6 minute match... I wish they were given the same amount of time as the main event guys.". And it depends on the show I'm watching as to when those feelings kick in. </p><p> </p><p> I do think there should be some (or more) products with no time restraints. For options.</p></div></blockquote><p> I feel you. And you are probably factually correct. And the penalties are good gameplay mechanic. For the reasons you stated. But the keyword there is gameplay. So it becomes gamey where we just find out that the optimal angle/match time is 7 minutes, and just proceed to book everything to go 7 minutes. And don't get me wrong, there's an audience for that, and their gamestyle is absolutely valid. And I don't think that should be taken away from them, instead of just giving the other half to the players an alternative. But "gamey" works against the immersive experience a good chunk of the player base is looking for.</p><p> </p><p> So I think we're in agreement there.</p><p> </p><p> But my problem with a hard penalty like this in a game of this nature is, those penalties are always so subjective; there are as many caps as there are consumers. One guy says the match should have ended 5 minutes ago, the other feels 3 minutes ago. While the third dude feels it was just right, and the fourth bro says it was just getting good. And a computer software can only draw one absolute line at a specific minute and say "This is the limit here".</p><p> </p><p> The hardest thing is probably addressing short matches, to be honest. A one minute match obviously has a very hard time to be exceptionally good, most people would agree. Same for a two minute match. Three minutes? Maybe four? But a five minute match has a pretty realistic shot. Again, though: drawing the exact line is hard, if not impossible. I don't claim to have a good answer. If the five minute match can pull it off, then it begs the question of why not the four minute match. Et cetera, and so on.</p><p> </p><p> So, yeah, this stuff is hard lol. But if there is to be a cap, I'd put it on short matches since short matches demand less of the workers in the match, whereas to have a long match requires more skill. So it's balanced. Something like 15 minutes is still way too high, though, in my opinion. Just my opinion as a wrestling fan.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Schwemm" data-cite="Schwemm" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="49006" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think it would be better to scrape the time-penalties until a better way is found. <p> What i always missed was a "repetitive booking" for angles too. Maybe there should be no "not rated" on angles and have to find a promo partner or good interviewer even for your topstars. Even Austin couldn`t hold the crowd just cutting a promo about himself 4 weeks in a row. But thats what you would do for success in TEW. The best way to get high ratings in an Attitude product would be booking 3x5minutes Austin promos each show. 100,100,100</p></div></blockquote><p> And I feel this cheese is exactly what 2020 tried to address, and I applaud that. It just didn't necessarily do so in the best way. But this kind of stuff is hard to balance, not claiming anything different. Some kind of a repetitive angle penalty has crossed my mind, too, though. Also, there is now more randomness in angle ratings, which is a really good thing.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="laeshley" data-cite="laeshley" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="47105" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>can i have a customs product where i can book customs matches?? i think this is an important product to have. thank you greydogsoftware</div></blockquote><p> What do you mean by custom matches? Every product in TEW allows you to book any match you want. If you want to book some more special matches, make sure you to untoggle the filter in the match booking screen that only shows you the limited list of default match types. Also, you can create your own matches. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

And to add to that, I feel like a binary computer software like TEW is simply unable make the kind of call that is asked of it in this instance in a super satisfying way - the way it's set up. Like, say, a match gets a penalty above 15 minutes. So, at exactly 15 minutes, it's awesome and a match of the year, the crowd is loving it, it's everything a professional wrestling match could ever be asked to be. But as soon as the timer goes one second above 15 minutes, people go "Oh hell yea, this is awes... wait, nope, no, no, no, we're one second above 15 minutes, that's a strike. What happens in the match during the one minute between 15 and 16? What is the thing that takes place that really drags down the match? A line like that is impossible to draw in real life, let alone designing a computer software around it.

I had a shower thought just now. Right now, the products, and their given limitations, seem to be a source of woe for a lot of players. And I think a lot of it has to do with the segment time limitations. At least according to a lot of posts here, it feels like I run into a post about them every single day in the various threads. So how about this concept to attempt and appease a majority of the people who right now feel like their given style of play is being restricted by 2020: EWR Throwback Products These products would be a variation of the currently existing products. Say, for instance, you'd have PG Entertainment like you have now, but you'd also have a variation of it, called PG Entertainment (EWR Throwback). And the difference would be the elimination of penalties and caps on match and angle times; the ratings of those segments would rely solely on the skill sets of the workers involved, and a possible storyline attached to them. You would still have your regular penalties, such as deathmatches being frowned upon in a PG Entertainment environment, but you'd just get rid of the time-based penalties. I think this would be a cool compromise, all things considered. I don't know how hard or tedious it would be to program this (I'm hoping it would be a simple copy/paste with a few minor tweaks) but I think this could potentially make a lot of people more satisfied with the game. The people who like the added challenge of the current setup could keep playing the way they have, and the people looking for a more EWR type experience with the added advanced features that 2020 provides, could do just that. The EWR Throwback variations, and then the already existing ability to suggest your own products would cover a lot of bases, I feel. This is just a thought.

Not to mention, games have come equipped with difficulty settings since the beginning of video games. For obvious reasons.

Alright. This is kind of a rant, but I try to have it be constructive. It's not any kind of an attack. Just some thoughts I've had for the longest time playing these games. And ones that have been escalated by the latest installment in the series. I have always disagreed with the arbitrary caps and penalties around segment times in the TEW games. Matches shorter than 15min are capped, angles shorter than 6 minutes, matches longer than this, matches longer than that, this, that, the other thing. All of them. My reason for this is simply that these caps and penalties don't at all take into account context. I don't think there's any rule in wrestling, TV, or entertainment in general about lengths of segments. No hard rule that in this form of entertainment a segment longer than X should be penalized or capped. Simply because what truly matters is context; what actually takes place in the segment, and whether or not it's engaging, is what people care about. This extends to all forms of televised and live entertainment, but let's stick to wrestling. I'm a speedrunner, so of course I have a timer ready to go at all times, so I actually did some timing on attitude era promos by going through RAW episodes in 1998. I mostly watched Austin and McMahon angles that moved forward the main storyline for the month. I put all my findings down, but suffice to say that some angles were 5 minutes, others were 10 minutes, 12 minutes, 15 minutes long, and the crowd was white hot all the way through, hanging on to Austin's every word. I simply failed to pinpoint a time in those promos where a penalty would kick in. The crowd wanted to see Austin and hear what he had to say. This is because Austin was mega over, and he had the skills as an entertainer to make the crowd engaged in a longer promo. He also had the character work and story behind him to make the promos exciting due to the unpredictable nature of his gimmick. I know that the thing people will say now is that it's still possible to score high in a promo even with the penalties, but I have an issue with this, too, since it's not the point. The point is, the penalties seem out of place and arbitrary, actively taking me out of the game, making me feel less like I'm booking a wrestling show, immersed in the process, and moreso that I'm playing a game, gaming the system to manipulate the scores to be the best possible. I don't think penalty dodging is even particularly challenging, so it's not like it's an interesting gameplay challenge. You just learn the penalty times, and book around them. Done. But it's not like it's very fun. At least in my opinion. Also, you gotta look at the whole word penalty. This is what the dictionary says: "A punishment imposed for breaking a law, rule, or contract." Basically, you are failing and doing something wrong. You are being punished for doing something you're not supposed to do. Even though the thing you're doing is exactly what was done in real life, and it was a proven recipe for success. Again, reminding you are simply playing a video game with binary 1s and 0s that you are attempting to game. There is no immersion. Caps and penalties on matches and angles already exist, though: the skills of the characters involved. This is true in the game and in real life. And even though these are also merely the same 1s and 0s you are playing around, they're the same "1s and 0s" that bookers in real life have to combat, so the immersion remains. Austin can cut a 15 minute promo and not lose the crowd due to A) being over, and B) having the necessary skills to pull it off. Not everyone does. This is why an added penalty on top of the already existing skill requirement seems unnecessary. A 20 minute Tiger Ali Singh should bomb because of his lack of skills in that area. Not because the product itself says so. There's no reason. The penalties feel arbitrary because they don't take into account context at all. For both angles and matches. What happens in the segment? Is it Triple H putting himself over for 20 minutes? For the 52nd week in a row? Or is it the culmination of a hot three month program with a shocking reveal at the end? TEW angles don't have context, so we are required to create it with our imagination, and this is where, again, the immersion breaks when the game treats them all equally. The reason we hated those 20 minute Triple H rant-o-ramas wasn't because a single 20 minute Triple H promo is bad necessarily; it's because it happened every single week and got boring and repetitive. Same with the classic opening segment where a babyface and a heel start the TV show with an in ring confrontation, just be interrupted by the heel authority figure that puts obstacles on the babyface's way. It just happened a million times and got tired. Context. Austin's segments also remained interesting because he would always use all these different kinds of props; he would ride a zamboni in the ring, he would drive a beer truck, he would fill Vince's limo with the cement... all these different kinds of things that were different and kept the audience thinking "What in the HELL is he gonna do next?" The Triple H promos were boring because they were always the same. "I've beating Foley, I've beaten The Rock, The Undertaker, this guy, that guy" every single week. Again, context. What happens in the angle is what counts, adding a hard coded cap that determines that an angle is automatically worse because it goes above 5 minutes is just not how real life works. In my opinion. Likewise, a 25 minute mat wrestling classic requires a ton of psychology and skill by the workers to keep it interesting for any kind of fan, even for the people who are into that stuff. As opposed to a 25 minute six man ladder match car crash that affords to have a spectacular spot every two minutes to keep the crowd on their toes without requiring that much attention span. Context. Also, something like a cap on "all matches sub 15 minutes" has never made any sense to me because the 5-10 minute match can be the blow-off to the hottest angle in years where the heel has been so vicious, so hated, so despicable in his actions, only to finally, after months of waiting, getting his ass handed to him by the babyface in decisive manner. A lot of people are right now clicking on "reply" to type in to say that the match can still score high, et cetera. But like I alluded to above, this makes me feel that I'm fighting the system, and that I got a high score despite playing the game wrong, even though booking a successful blow-off to a hot feud where the heel gets his in decisive manner is the right way to book wrestling according to everything I've ever learned about wrestling. Not to mention, penalty dodging just leads to these annoying habits (that are self-inflicted, though, to be fair, but still) like I had and have with TEW 2016 where I just book my short angles to be 6 minutes long to ensure no caps. It's not realistic, it's not immersive, but you know, OCD. And that's on me, I know. But I'd venture to guess that OCD is not that uncommon among people who play a text based wrestling sim. Just my hunch. And the 6 minute rule, among other things, has been brought up in the Discord, and I'm definitely not the only one who does this. I don't like it, and I'd like to stop, but it's so hard to willingly take the penalty. So you just add the extra minutes to that backstage assault angle and sort of pretend they're not there. To get the rewarding rating. Now, penalties for stuff like gory deathmatches on a mainstream sports entertainment show make sense, and never bother anyone. These are realistic and no one would debate them. They're also absolute and not arbitrary. Ditto for penalties based simply on poor skills. But TL;DR the ability to hold a crowd's attention comes down to a worker's set of skills, the context of the segment, and the storyline attached to it. TEW doesn't have a lot of context, and it relies on our imagination, so it needs to make do with simply the skill sets and storyline heat. And it's TEW actively going against our imagination that so many of us feel is so grating. Unfortunately, the bombardment of penalties tied to segment times in TEW 2020 is a big reason why I feel like sticking with the 2016 version of the game, even though 2016 also has its share of this - as outlined above - you don't feel quite as completely handcuffed, with the game constantly berating you, and getting in the way of you using your imagination and enjoying the game. Thanks for reading.

But it's not a competitive game, though. People pay the $35 to pass the time and have fun. Not to necessarily engage in a grueling grind. Some do, of course. And it would still be possible by simply not picking said product. I don't even want to engage in some fierce debate, I don't want to come off as antagonistic, I don't want to start some argument. I don't want to attack anyone. But this strange attitude of people calling certain playstyles wrong in such a seemingly open sandbox game like this is just so weird to me. And it's really been a downer in this community lately.

Why can't the AI just be blocked from using a specific product? And leave it only for the human players.

Hallelujah.

Maybe companies should have a company default, set in the editor, and when adding a contract to that specific company, the default would be pre-set?

Or let's say. When we pick a match, we could do the usual and pick 1vs1. But also on the list we could have some ready made options such as a 1vs1 squash template. Clicking that would not only pick the 1vs1 match, but it would include the road agent notes. And then when pick the participants, the participant on the left would be the winner.

One click templates would be nice. Let's say we were able to pick the winner without going to the road agent notes themselves, and then had a brief list of templates such as open match, squash, etc. - also one click away without going to the notes. Maybe we could create our set of templates even. They could be a scroll down menu. That'd be pretty hype. Maybe not possible for this version, but for a future version.

So, I was thinking. Currenly, Wholesome is no a gimmick basis because it was thought that wholesome doesn't require special skills, and doesn't really have any special attributes attached to it, but I actually disagree a little bit. When you look back on big time wrestling superstars, the ability to pull off the Wholesome character isn't that common, actually. I mean pulling it off really good. People can say what they want about Hogan - I'm not the biggest fan myself - but he was able to pull it off. They tried with a number of guys, but it wasn't really until Cena that they found their next Wholesome mega babyface. Diesel went from the cool bad boy he was prior to his title win to a Wholesome character and failed. Shawn went from the cool bad boy prior to his title win to a Wholesome babyface, and failed. Bret was another one who was good in the Wholesome role, actually. The effective Wholesome character isn't something every wrestler is able to do well. Heck, they actually tried it with Rocky Maivia, too. Failed. Rock only got over after he ditched the Wholesome character. It came off forced, and wasn't natural for him. In TEW terms, as talented as he was, his "Wholesome gimmick performance" was low. They also tried with Roman for years, but it never clicked. This, then, lead me to an idea where Wholesome would grant a worker a bonus as a Figurehead. It wouldn't be necessary to have a Wholesome character to be an effective Figurehead, but a high enough Wholesome gimmick would give a bonus and make the worker better as a company's Figurehead babyface. Maybe some added sponsorship income, broadcasters being more likely to negotiate, some stuff like that. The worker would need to have the attribute that makes him an effective Wholesome performer, and a high rated Wholesome based gimmick. I don't watch much anymore, but out of the current roster, I think Bryan and Kofi are the ones I'd give the ability to pull off the Wholesome character. Just an idea.

Thank you for changing the colors, Adam.

This is a glitch that was fixed in one of the patches.

I'd love a "Force Push" feature where a worker who's given this "Force Push" would always automatically win, unless specifically stated otherwise in the Notes.

The true experience of the game is the way you personally enjoy it the most. The RW vs. CVerse elitism is the most tired meme of this community.

Yea, it's been a big help to me tbh.

In-game? You can't. You can disable "Random Incidents" and Injuries from happening through your User Preferences, though. But you can't remove existing hiatuses, injuries, etc. that have already taken place in your save game. Unless I misunderstood your question, in which case I apologize.

They're listed in the handbook.

Not every obscure wrestler is even supposed to have distinct attributes tbh.