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shawn michaels

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    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    I think were talking at cross points. I was discussing why i think predictable storyline s are not in and of themselves bad, not trying to say that people don't criticize TNA. Both companies take heat, because everyone is a great booker in thier own mind :D

     

    Well, it just seemed to me that you were implying something like that, but maybe i misunderstood.

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

     

    Now compare that with TNA's heel turn on sting, for example. Is it sudden? sure. has it had "shock" moments? you bet.

     

    It also suffers from the fact that i flat out don't care about it. TNA's booking staff has given me no reason to. Sting just showed up, kicked RVD's rear end, and now does the same every once in awhile.

     

    Now, i know the IWC response "it will be explained later, right now it's a cliffhanger"

     

    Bull, it's bad booking.

     

    Have you ever read a story where it threw the climax in your face and then promised to explain it in due time? those storys better be told in phenominal style, or they are disjointed and jarring.

     

     

     

    I would love to truly talk about this post, but i'm a bit busy now putting HBK and Bryan Danielson over everything that moves on my roster (lolz) , so here's goes a quick one: Where have you hear anyone here (just to give an example) defend the way in wich TNA turned sting (or the turn itself) or try to justify it by saying it's a cliffhanger? I may be wrong, but the majority here "pounded TNA until they were knocked out in the mat" because of the whole Sting situation. Hell, most of us here are always agreeing in the fact that although WWE is stale, it doesn't mean it is necessarily bad, and make's a lot more sense then TNA.

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    I agree, but i will say, i think there is something to be said for logical, well paced storylines.

     

    One thing i hate is the swerve for the sake of the swerve. I think TNA suffers from that immensely.

     

    Example: CM punk heel turn was evident from the first promo he gave after cashing in MITB on hardy. We all knew he was turning heel. it was a predictable, well paced storyline that followed a logical progression.

     

    It was also great, and led to punk being on of the best heels in the company.

     

    Now, the way i read the IWC, some would argue that's bad storytelling, because in the abstract, it suffers from every thing they propose to hate about the WWE.

     

    - Predictable

    - saw it coming a mile away

    - no "shock" moment, really.

     

    Now compare that with TNA's heel turn on sting, for example. Is it sudden? sure. has it had "shock" moments? you bet.

     

    It also suffers from the fact that i flat out don't care about it. TNA's booking staff has given me no reason to. Sting just showed up, kicked RVD's rear end, and now does the same every once in awhile.

     

    Now, i know the IWC response "it will be explained later, right now it's a cliffhanger"

     

    Bull, it's bad booking.

     

    Have you ever read a story where it threw the climax in your face and then promised to explain it in due time? those storys better be told in phenominal style, or they are disjointed and jarring.

     

    I just don't think TNA really understands how to involve people in there story lines long term. use, WWE is quite often predictable, but when you do a storyline as tight as they generally do, so what?

     

    MAss effect 2, to go completely random for a comparison, is predictable as all hell. That game didn't suprise me once.

     

    But, it told the story well, involved me in it, and made me care about the characters.

     

    No one randomly turned on me for no reason. everything that happened was well told and made sense. that's good storytelling.

     

    Just booking a random swerve or turn, to me, is not "exciting" or edgey it's silly. I wouldn't do it in TEW, i don't enjoy it in the real world.

     

     

     

    TNA has alot of high end talent, but they need to learn how to book it, quickly. Otherwise they will stay as that "other" promotion forever.

     

    those are my random musings, anyway.

     

    I'm sorry, but i will have to ask this...are you serious? Especially in some parts where you talk about the IWC?

    The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    For WM:

     

    3. Chris Jericho vs Edge: These two are two of my favorite pro wrestlers of all time. They have put on tons of good matches, and this one is looking to be another one.

     

    2. ShoMiz vs R-Truth & John Morrison: I have liked the storyline build up, and this looks to be a great tag title match with who I think are 3 up and coming wrestlers and an awesome former World Champ.

     

    1. Vince McMahon vs Bret Hart: At first I wasn't too excited for this. But when they made this match a No Holds Barred match, I marked out. One of my favorite mark out moments was at WMXIX when it was Hulk Hogan vs Vince in a Street Fight, which, while IMO not a technical masterpiece, was a great WM match. I think that this match will also be one, and I think that pieces of the match will look great if they put them in highlight packages.

     

     

    For years i wanted to see Bret back, but i had to accept the fact that he just couldn't do it. So...why did he return in the first place? I mean...this is not the 90's, he isn't going to deliver a classic like in teh old days. Even with the match stipulation he won't be able to get involved in too many violence for obvious reasons. Of course we all know he'll spend the match pounding on vince, but still...i think the old school fans will resent Bret for this match after all is said and done. But who knows? Maybe i'm wrong.

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Was it me or did it look like he wasn't feeling it at the end of last Monday's show? I mean Eric Young and RVD looked like they were happy to be out there. However, Jeff looked like he was thinking whatever.

     

    I believe it was something more like this: "God i have to enjoy this while it lasts because i'm going to jail!" However, his jail thoughts got the better and that's why he looked that way. :D

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Now I don't think that Vince is worried about TNA, he has no reason to be, but for him to pretty much say that he does not care about them is a lie. I read (And you can all say the tired line of, Do you believe everything you read, because I believe it to be true.) that he and people watching TNA and reporting to him what was going on when they went head-to-head. So he is very much aware of what is going on, even if he wants to play it off as if he doesn't care..

     

    Vince is paying attention to them, he's careful. He didn't got where he did by sitting and relaxing without paying attention. But he is doing what he's suposed to by saing he doesn't care. It would be ridiculous for him to admit he's got his eyes on them, especially with the current rating. His current strategy shows inteligence.

     

     

    I agree with you on Hardy, I never got his appeal. To me he is nothing more than a bland (personality wise, not wrestling wise) tag team wrestler.

     

    I know why some people like him, he atracts the emo type of people (wich i truly dispize,but that's a personal opinion of mine. people like whatever they like,period) as well as a bunch of other trend groups. I have to say i like high flyers (not only high flyers, but i like them) and i have to admit that there's something about hardy that i dispize...oh i wonder what? Wait...i think i already said what it is... :D

    The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Yep it makes more sense for Goldberg to sign with the E and as Jester pointed out there is a bigger chance he will be used well there. In the TNA thread I made clear what I thought about him possibly in TNA. In short it was that he could be an asset but that he would have to be handled exactly right or it wouldn't work which would make it too big a risk given his cost.

     

    Frankly...i think Goldberg is over rated...way over rated. I can't see him doing something that would be that worth of watching and i defnitely can't see him headlining on WWE. I'm not saying it's not doable, i'm just saying i wouldn't be interested in watching it. Wich doesn't mean i wouldn't mind seeing him there for a run, but not as a headliner. I wouldn't mind seeing the guy back, as he would still be useful, but i think he's over rated. As someone already said, there are a lot of former WCW guys i'd rather see beeing signed first. But i won't go as far as sayign he's my "129" pick. :D But that's just my opinion.

    The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    I think the Goldberg thing might require to do like a year run and end at WM. The guy doesn't need the money (unlike Flair who keeps wrestling to pay all his ex's), he recently said he doesnt want to keep wrestling his tights as an old man, and he has also done a good job of distancing himself from the business and be successful which is hard to do.

     

    However I def. see this more as an outside the ring business deal than a "lets bring Goldberg in so he can be a top draw again" deal. I say that for a few reasons,

     

    - First is TNA. Goldberg doesn't like them. It isn't just because of Hogan but both Goldberg and Lesnar publicly stated they were upset TNA kept using their names to tease big signings (which did over and over and over) and as we all know Hogan teased bringing him in which Goldberg said they never even negotiated.

     

    - That first point was Goldberg being personal with TNA, second is WWE's "battle" with TNA. While Goldberg didn't want to go to TNA now that doesn't mean they wont throw money at him in the future which would draw more hype for TNA and let them sell ALOT of merchandise which WWE could be selling.

     

    - Merchandise and DVD. This of course benefits both sides. Goldberg can make a lot more money of merchandise than with TNA so it only makes sense for him. They can bring Goldberg in ring for a year, give him a title run like before (theres two titles so no one else is getting hurt) then when he is done put out a DVD including his WCW run which would sell especially now that he would have more WWE footage and it would actually be a good one to watch. Also think of a post career book. Of course then WWE can still sell their Who's Next shirts and all that even after he's gone giving both money for longer.

     

    - Post Wrestling. Goldberg does appearances but WWE can give him more opportunities (heck he could come to AXXESS every year) making more money. Also, a movie. WWE has been getting into them and Goldberg would fit for a good role (doesnt even have to be the star) and because he's already had success outside of wrestling promoting things like that would be easier, I mean my Dad even likes him b/c of his car shows and car collection but has no clue who Cena is.

     

    - Finally HOF. This ties into Post Wrestling but as people have said WWE is lacking "big" names for the HOF because lets face it, there have only been so many big names in the 20 years of mainstream wrestling. yes there are still good old worthy guys, but not alot of them appeal to the general WWE audience. If Goldberg did his year (or just over) run like I said winning the title he would then be a two time WWE champion and one time WCW champion and have the streak and all that and lets face it there have been less deserving people get into the HOF.

     

    -Sting. This one is REALLY iffy I don't expect this to fully happen but at least listen. Sting has disliked WWE is without a doubt the biggest star of the era that has never worked for WWE. If they treat a former WCW guy like Goldberg well it might help Sting do something with WWE after he retires and is done with TNA even if it is only to do a book, movie, and HOF thing. Afterall, if Goldberg can make all that money without doing much work, why woulnd't Sting at least think about it? Goldberg isn't the golden thing that would make this happen but it sure as hell doens't hurt.

     

    Overall seems like a great business decision that didn't capitalize on before but I agree he has to return to the ring (even if only wrestling at PPV's) or he wont have the momentum to just sell merchandise.

     

    There isn't much to add here, as you brilliantly explained yourself, but i have to say that maybe the Sting part isn't that much iffy as some may think.

    The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Ummmm..the interviews I've seen about that time period would say that yes, their combined checks would've been more.

     

    But that was a rare case.

     

    My point is that for what you pay two guys, the return on investment didn't justify it. A solid well-known even semi-main event tag team doesn't draw any more fans thatn a solid well-knwon semi-main event singles guy.

     

    All i'm sayin'

     

    :):D:D:);););):):D:) <---- so no one takes this too seriously

     

    I see this post as an insult to my person, wich means i will now kill myself as my heart is broken... Oh...the pain!!!! :eek:

     

     

    :):D:D:);););):):D:):p:D:o:cool::):p:D:):D:p;):D:D:D:D:D:D <---- so no one takes this too seriously.

     

     

    Edit: Before i kill myself i had an epiphany and ran back here to edit this post. I forgot to say that i didn't explain myself well. I ment that nowadays a good team would never get a bigger pay check (with both guys income combined) then a ME. So, it would not be so unprofitable to bet on a certain high level of teams. (but not only ME teams, of course)

    The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Love this conversation...

     

    Just wanted to throw in that, from a cost standpoint, a company is paying two guys to get the same revenue that a really over singles wrestler can give them.

     

    Take the Road Warriors for instance: legendary team, proven draw, headlined shows for JCP, AWA, promotions in Japan...but did they draw twice as much as someone like Flair? or Dusty Rhodes?

     

    Because they made around as much and you had to pay BOTH Hawk and Animal.

    From a cost effectiveness stadnpoint, focusing on midcard names and using the tag division to develop younger guys makes more sense (similar reasoning is why manager aren;t around as much).

     

    It sucks because we'll probably never see a really great tag divsion again in the WWE. But that money is a big driver.

     

     

    Still, what they would pay both would never probably be the same as they would pay Flair or Rhodes. So there would still be some profit. Even if a Tag get's really over, they never get a ME push while together (at least not nowadays) wich means that what they get paid (combined) will never be the same as ME.

    The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Also consider the personal aspect.

     

    Team3D splits the proceeds of their merch. Why do that if you don't have to? Sure, it's nice to be idealistic and think 'all for one' and such but really, how far do you think Shawn Michaels gets with a Jannetty around his neck? Speaking of which, Final Countdown, the Rockers didn't split because one was appreciably more popular than the other (at the time). They split because one had 'STAR' practically tattooed on his forehead and the other, well, didn't. They were almost exact precursors to the Hardyz. One was practically dripping with charisma and the other....was good in the ring.

     

    While I agree with you Self, I also know that humans are strange creatures. Batista was one half of a pretty good tag team (Disciples of Synn? With the heavyset goth chick as manager) when he was known as Leviathan. He didn't do too much lobbying to bring his partner along when they put him with D-Von though. Because you're right, a tag team isn't going to sell double the merch so both members have to settle for half they would as singles workers. Teams are marketed as a unit, after all. Also, your main event tag team idea requires bodies. Main eventers beating midcarders week in and week out, gets really boring. There's only so many times you can pull the 'underdog gets the unlikely win' thing before it gets...what's that word people here use for WWE? Stale.

     

    As I said, I agree in principle with what you said. But the facts are the facts. Tag teams don't produce dividends enough (or fast enough) to justify the investment in them. One tag team program would typically involve four workers. Those four workers, as singles, would produce two marketable programs. So the one program has a steep hill to climb (or row to hoe) from the very beginning. Yes, it is about money, on both sides of the equation (promotion and worker).

     

    There isn't much to add on this one as remianen said it perfectly. It is about the money, and that makes it impossible to have main event tag teams parading around every week. However, it sin't that hard to see some proper tag division maed of midcards. However, nothing stops them from building a strong midcard tag division headlined by a couple of ME teams. (WIch would rotate in a periodic bases to allow all ME to have their singles action) Nothing stops them...or nothing should...

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Yeah I've had this argument with others who seem to think non-wrestling fans picking Hulk Hogan out of a lineup means he is A* over in TEW terms. But overness isn't based on how many non-fans know who someone is: it's more a measure of what percentage of wrestling fans are willing to pay to see the guy. More non-fans know who Jake Roberts is than Randy Orton, but in the wrestling word Orton is significantly more over.

     

    If thousands of fans are willing to pay to see you wrestle, you're pretty over. Hogan could make that argument 16 years ago. Not so much today.

     

    Indeed! I rest my case. :)

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    This raises an interesting point in TEW terms lol...cause i'd say he is still the best known worker in the world, perhaps with the exception of The Rock. That's more crossover based though, in wrestling itself, he's waned quite a bit.

     

    He might still be the most know worker in the world for his achievements in the past, but he is definitely not the most over guy nowadays. He isn't a major top draw anymore. it's time for him to face it. And he still had the nerve to ask Vince a few years ago (3 years ago,IIRC) who were the other 11 guys getting HIS money when VInce told hem he was not the only top dog anymore (because now there were at least 11 other guys)? Please...the guy is a leech. A leech that actually thinks he can still try and do...leeching... :D But getting back to the point: Beeing known is not the same thing that beeing over.

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Here's the breakdown I found at http://www.tnastars.com/2010/03/23/tna-impact-ratings-322-full-breakdown/

     

    iMPACT! Ratings (3/22): Full Breakdown

    Added on Tuesday, March 23rd, 2010 at 6:48 pm to Latest News by Joe

     

    Partial Source: Pro Wrestling Torch

     

    Last night’s live edition of TNA Impact did a 0.9 cable rating which was rounded up from a 0.86 with 1,200,00 viewers. While still under what the series was doing taped on Thursday nights, the number is up from last week’s abysmal 0.84 cable rating.

     

    The quarter-hour ratings for last night’s TNA Impact fluctuated throughout the show before peaking in Q6 and steadily dropping for the final two quarter-hours and over-run.

     

    The show opened with a 0.79 quarter-hour rating with Eric Bischoff and Jeff Jarrett, which was the next-to-lowest quarter-hour rating on the show.

     

    The show built to a 0.93 quarter-hour in Q3 with the Lockdown announcement featuring Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Sting, and A.J. Styles.

     

    The audience level then dropped 18.3 percent to a show-low 0.76 quarter-hour rating in Q4 featuring Rob Terry vs. Tomko.

     

    After the show bottomed out, the audience rebuilt to a 0.97 quarter-hour rating in Q6 with the end of Jarrett-Foley, RVD and Jeff Hardy in-ring, and Bischoff and Hulk Hogan backstage.

     

    After the show peaked in Q6, the audience steadily declined to an average 0.85 quarter-hour for Q8 and a 0.81 over-run rating for the end of Beer Money vs. RVD & Jeff Hardy.

     

    --------

    Kind of surprised the main event lost viewers given the overness of RVD and to a lesser extent Hardy, not to mention that Beer Money are pretty over.

     

     

    Also here's a comparative link I found with a Raw/Impact Comparison (haven't found a raw ratings brekdown anywhere theough. Will update if I do)

     

    At this point i would say that this is what it looks like: Some people are just zapping TNA on and off for most of the show,to see if it's worth watching,but most of them gets bored, or confused, or dislikes what they see and they get sick of it before the end, hence the low main events, especially this week's ME, as it had 4 works who are pretty over.

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Yay I like you for posting the real number and not .9 like I thought people would do! Up from a .84.

     

    RAW's rating is down quite a bit which people are making a big deal about but I imagine its b/c this is a weak RAW, people say how its so important as the last RAW before WM but nothing really happens the week before WM.

     

    I agree on this one. But still, and getting back to TNA, .86 is still very low. If they booked well they could be much better.

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    I swear that EB is looking more and more like a smark that still hasn't learned how to play TEW.

     

    And by smark i mean the right defenition,not those i've seen in this forum. A smark is a guy that thinks he his a guru on wrestling, that thinks he knows everything about the business,including backstage knowledge. But when you have a conversation with him, you see that he is no more then a mark wiht only a couple more of things learned. And by God...EB should quickly learn how to play TEW. I think he's not paying attention at the dirt sheet atm. And Hogan? Well, he's still asking who are the other 11 guys that Vince is sharing is money with...pathetic...

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    Again it's just being assumed that the whole thing's been forgotten and that TNA wasted the opportunity. I know TNA has a history of bad booking, but bashing them for a booking decision before it's even been made/not made is ridiculous.

     

    We don't hate TNA, so we are not biased, we just don't like their product now, or at least the majority of it. On the other hand...you clearly mark for them...whatever they do...and that makes you biased. Analyse what's been going on, think about it and then you'll see that we're saying sinteresting and valid points.

    The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread

    in The Dog Pound

    Posted

    It was a waste, in my opinion. The way it was done was a waste. It would have been a well-worked debut if they were going to feud. If they aren't going to feud, then what's the point? Not every beatdown needs retribution. But a 10-minute beatdown with a bat certainly does. And where did Sting get beatdown by RVD for 10 minutes? I missed that part

     

    Where did I say that RVD's run in TNA would be a waste? I think his debut was wasted. They brought him out in a way that gave him momentum, and then basically killed that momentum with the post-match beatdown. If Sting gets in a couple of shots and then leaves off, or maybe gets fought off by RVD. But no, he just destroys RVD until Hogan shows up. As a viewer, I saw the entire segment as reasserting that Hogan and his feud are more important than RVD.

     

     

    Don't doubt it. We're talking about the guy that still thinks nowadays that he is still the most over worker in the whole world. So, yeah...pretty much he thinks he is more important then anyone, although he is like...1024 years old. :D

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