shawn michaels
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Posts posted by shawn michaels
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Honestly, Shawn, I think that you often come across that way. It's the language barrier. You've got very good English, but something is lost in translation, I think. You basically come across as lacking moderation, which is common when you're having difficulty expressing yourself.
Honestly, once I realized this, which I did almost immediately after the first few times I spoke with you, you became a very likeable fellow. I'm sorry that I don't speak Portuguese and I can't talk to you on even terms, and you have to deal with being unable to express what you want to say. I've been in situations like that and it always really stinks.
Maybe, but i really don't hate anyone, let alone John Cena. I never even met him. Disliking his character is one thing, hating the man is another. Still, i bet i did sound a little extreme. And it's normal, because with me beeing missunderstood, people "attacking me" and all that was going on, i guess a guy may end up lacking in moderation, even if not intended. But hey, glad to see that some you understood what was going on.
You know the funny part? Some of the guys that lashed out one me (so to speak) are actually guys who's opinion i respect in these forums. Out of my head i can remember Stennick as major example of this.
Ps: Linsolv, you're also on the people i respect and value their opinions on these forums category, btw. You usually can make wonderful solid debates always knowing what you're talking about.
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Cena debate still going? Lol, I think what gets tiresome with this argument is that I've been involved in it so many times in the past few years and it always goes the same way. I think people are being a bit immature in their responses to shawn as to be fair it's his second language and he still puts his points across really well, instead of commenting on the well put points he says. People just seem to focus on one point he said as a joke and a few things that he wasn't able to say with detail which is unfair.
I agree alot with what was said above. Maybe if wrestling in the 80s developed with small guys aswell as larger guys being booked equal then we'd be having a different conversation. I think there comes a point where someone is too small (Sin Cara) and too big (Khali) where it just doesn't look realistic. Though guys like Punk, Michaels, Jericho and Benoit who are small but not too small definitely have the same potential to get over as a Triple H, Brock Lesnar or a Cena.
The bold part.I mean...the whole post makes a good point, but finally someone notices what i've been trying to say for a long time. I've been treated unfairly on this argument. Wich makes me think that these types of reactions may be considered the exact opposite of what i was accused of doing. I was accused of beeing non rational in my hate for the man, and someone even said i hated him personally. I don't even know him. And i think there's enough documented interviews to prove that, at least acording to his colleagues, he's actually a nice guy. (Though his colleagues are collecting their pay checks in the same place that him, so that's debatable. But that's not the point.) So...the way some people handled what i said can be seen as the exact opposite of what i was accused of doing. And it certainly was not fair.
Wait, you're using kayfabe weights as fact? Seriously, LOOK at HBK and Cena. Then tell me that if HBK put on 15 pounds, he'd be as big as Cena.Also, WO awards isn't exactly hard evidence. It is a *fact* that he won those awards, which are based solely on *opinion*.
I mean, you understand that it's the opinion of the WO staff that determines those awards, right? It's not a triathlon or any sport where Cena objectively beat other competitors.
AMEN! If i looked at awards i would say that HBK's 7 match PWI Match of the year Streak makes him the best of all time. It doesn't. But it certainly helps the believe that he's capable of pulling an A* match out of a broom.
But it's just awards...chosen by a few guys... -
It's not just Vince though, outside of perhaps the modern age itself... But traditionally Big Guys have always been pushed because it's alot easier to get someone like that over. I can't help to feel sometimes it's a bit of lazyness, but in reality it's just hard for someone to look at someone like Sin Cara or Rey Mysterio (for example), and then look at someone like John Cena... and go "That guys going to kick Cena's butt!" IF it were a fight in real life, for example, most of us would put our money on Cena. You have to build these guys to make a believable match that in the right circumstance's, if things go their way (even if luck is involved), they could indeed kick someone like Cena's (using him as a generic muscular wrestling guy, not litterally saying Cena... I could have used Batista, The Rock, etc...) butt. This is harder to do then grabbing someone that's 7'+ and putting them in the ring with someone almost a foot shorter. Big show versus Miz is easy to believe that Big Show would win. Vice versa, you have to put in some believable (ring psychology as well) spots in the match, to have Miz bring it over to his level (He's chopping the Giant down!).
To me, it's actually smart booking, till you get guys talented enough to get a crowd to "believe" they can do it (Like Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan...). It's really hard to make a guy like me believe that doing flips and other acrobatics in the ring is going to beat the Big Show (for example)... or anyone for that matter. However, you mix high spots that make sense (where the guy doesn't have to wait on the ground for what seems like a minute), where it gets them out of trouble (By flipping over the guy trying to slam them/counter move), with some good technical skills (again, countering an otherwise hold or punch that should flatten them), I can suspend my belief.
I'm the size of Cena (for example, actually a little bigger/not ripped like him, but well built). I know what I'm capable of in a "real" fight. Smaller guys get mad when I say this, but all you average or bigger guys know what I'm talking about (Average being at LEAST 5' 10'', 200 lbs). When your dealing with a small guy, in a fight... Your conscious of the fact he's small, and it's almost like your fighting a girl... Unless your just really really mad at them, your trying as much not to hurt them as you are trying to keep them from hurting you (which is where we can lose it sometimes... if they get a good punch in that hurts, lol). Sometimes you don't have a choice, but the fact of the matter is, your in a lose/lose situation where most people around are concerned... "How could you hurt him, your twice his size!" and if they don't give up and you decide to end the fight without hurting him, everyone is like "How could you let a little guy beat you?" No different then fighting a girl... "How could you let a girl beat you?" compared to "How could you hurt her, she's a girl!"
Little guys don't understand that till I compare them to someone that would be compatible size to me and him... How would you feel about beating up a 12 year old? Same difference in almost everything, strength, size, etc. You can't possibly tell me you would hit a girl (for example), just to prove you can beat them up. I feel the same way if someone around 5'9", and under 190lbs tries to start a fight with me. There is nothing for me to prove... the hardest thing I have in a fight like that, is trying NOT to hurt them, and trying NOT to look like a bully. Your not going to hit a 12 year old reguardless, but lets say that's a 22 year old, but the same size as a 12 year old.... When someone is a half a foot shorter, or you have over 100 pounds on someone (not talking fat here), your uncomfortable hurting someone that much smaller then you. At least I am.
This is why it's so easy to get big guys over. Realistically, two guys on the same level of skill (in fighting), one with a 100 pound advantage and strength advantage, has definately got the upper hand, no matter how you slice it. You have to build up the smaller guy to be percieved as a better fighter/wrestler, or what have you.
If I were a small guy, I probably would be mad about the way smaller guys get treated in wrestling as well, since it's not "real"... The problem with it is that it's supposed to at least appear real, and realistically, half-pints aren't beating up men that look like a miniature incredible Hulk.
I actually don't see any problem in pushing guys that have Cena's size. He's no giant. And that was not the point of my argument. But never mind that for now, let's take a look at what you said.
The whole "the bigger the guys, the easier the push" argument is a valid one, granted, but we can look at it the other way around. If we want to keep things real, we shouldn't have rosters or main events full with Dave Batista look-a-likes. Because if you look at professional sports (real ones) you don't see them full with only big guys.So, to have realistic scenarios, we could have balanced rosters with divided pushes. Wich would mean pushes to the medium/small guys happening as well. Becase if size was the major factor on deciding pushes, then we'd see promotions full of Batistas or Khalis. So to get the things down to an acceptable realism, there will have to be smaller guys involved, wich would include pushes to them.
And if we look at it, the majority of the so called "guys that were main event or world champion material bur were treated unfairly by vince" are regular guys. Guys that don't fall in the batista, lashley or even cena (I'm using acceptable examples in here, cause we don't see that many Big Show or Khalis around) type of height/weight combination. That definetly means something. And if we look at the WWE pushes in the last years we could definitely ask to ourselves: "Would John be pushed the way he was if we didin't look the way he does?" I think not. And now that i talk about this, i remember that this is why i brought up the whole "Big Guys" argument. I'll admit it didn't came out well back then, but it's an excellent or at least valid argument, and you guys have to give me that much.
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I, for one, completely agree with you that even though the weight difference between HBK and Cena was pointed out to be insignificant, Cena *looks* bigger and bulkier than HBK and certainly has more of a "big guy look" overall. He looks stronger and more badass and he looks far more muscular.
Exactly. His build makes him "eligible" to the type of workers that vince has proven over the years that he likes to push.
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This. I am no Cena fan, but your completely illogical and non-reality based debating style didn't really prove anything.
You just sprouted the traditional anti-cena rant, parts of which i can certainly get behind, then refused to respond to any logical argument with anything other than "Your a cena mark"
As someone put it, you're entitled to your opinion, but i'm also entitled to dismiss it as no more compelling than"cena sucks, i rulezzs!" since you won't engage anyone in debate beyond "im right, your wrong, and facts are for losers who don't agree with me!"
I'm available to debate and counter your facts any time. Though i don't think it would do a lot for the thread. But still, i'm available.
Yes, but again, it's a big "so what," since the fact that any favoring of big guys has absolutely nothing to do with anything anyone was talking about. I understand he's struggling to communicate based on his total lack of understanding of what people were saying to him, but it doesn't suddenly make irrelevant statements relevant. It's like pointing out that "everybody knows" that Hulk Hogan was a politician to prove that John Cena's a politician. It just doesn't connect logically at all.Funny thing is that if this was a verbal debate we would get along fine. My spoken eglish is actually very good. My written english used to earn the A grades, but years passed and it got rusty. Time will amend it, i hope.
Anyway, i don't really remember how i introduced the whole "Vince likes to push big guys" argument to the debate (Though i'm aware i did it) but althouh John Cena is no Andre The Giant, Big show, and so on, his physical build (as a guy capable of lifting the big show, something we wouldn't see Michaels do) still manages to get in the big guy category. In my opinion at least. And even if you don't want to consider Cena as a big guy, fine, than you can also consider it irrelevant to the debate, but Vince does love to push the big guys, that's for sure. I'm certain i'm not the only one thinking this.
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He brought up other example's, like Andre and Hulk Hogan.
Everyone knows that Vince like's to push big guys, like Khali for example.
He's really not trying to sound the way he sounds. I'm one of the first to do as everyone did here: Point out some facts when faced with non-facts, but his points are really alot tamer then he meant. I really do think the language barrier is a problem for him, he's not using the right words in quite a few cases is all.
Thank you. Someone beeing reasonable here, for a change.
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Did Cena kick your puppy as a boy or something dude? You seem to just expell this underlining hatred for the dude. Everything you say about the guy just comes across as extreme dislike. I guess it used to bug me a bit how you would loudly proclaim him being so awful but now I think its kinda cute now. I almost want to mail you the Word Life DVD with a video camera to capture your expression the moment you saw it was in fact the Word Life DVD.
Anyway haters goin hate. I'm a Cena fan, I wouldn't say I'm a super fan of anybody. I don't buy the pay per views, I've never bought a single DVD or t shirt. However I mostly enjoy the guys promos, I think he's awesome for business and Cena from 03 is one of my favorite wrestling characters.
You know, i always saw you as someone that actually knows what tey're saying and that never resources to the ignorance level embeded on that type of irony....like you just did. But don't, not until i do the same with you, wich i didn't.
I wouldn't let anyone get under your skin, I think I actually figured what you meant in comparison to what you said.For example: You don't dislike John Cena the person... You dislike his character and gimmick, and feel it's being shoved down your throat. Your tired of his tired act, so to speak.
You don't really care what his work-rate is. You personally are just tired of him, or at least his character.
Your not alone...
The only thing I'm not sure about is when you say everyone that boo's him feels the same as you do, which I don't think is actually true. I mean, I think some do, but I think some just boo him because it's the "cool" thing to do at times, and lately doesn't seem to be as many as say two years ago.
I figured these things out from the different things said, between what you mean, what you meant, and what you said etc... At least I think I got you.
This isn't to try and start the debate up or anything, just wanted to show you that some of us are trying to figure out exactly what you mean, especially after informing us that this is a second (perhaps a third) language for you. I wasn't here (and many other's) to ask you the right questions, even if we knew what the right questions were, because of timing.
The only thing I would suggest (with translation problems), is to at least acknowledge the points you do see other's making, and maybe they will try harder to get your points in the future.
There are plain old Cena Hater's though, and I think that's what your being labled as by some here, because of the translation problems, and the lack of acknowledging what you do understand to be true... For example, the Height/Weight thing, was just to show that there is only 15 pounds and no height difference between HBK and John Cena. This was brought up to counter a point about HBK being an exception to the rule, yet Cena not being an exception to the rule, of Vince liking Big guys (John Cena and HBK are bassically the same size). You missed that point when it was first brought up, and dismissed it as not mattering, after bringing it up in the first place. Translation problem I figure, but I'm afraid you still didn't get why it was being brought up as a fact, so I figured I would point that out to you just in case.
I would never let these people get under my skin. Yeah, we can say that you understood way more than them. THe weight thing wasn 't a dismissal per say, i jut didn't understood what they mean't then. But when i did, i listed a few examples of the big guys beeing pushed. Anyway, no point in keeping this debate. But i at least did in a decen way. Some just decided to try mock or label me as this or that. That is pretty lamme and ignorant. But hey, can't say the same about you. Thanks for understanding some of my points of view.
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Ahem..
Either way, you have this unnatural hatred for a man you don't even know and try to say his mostly booed and that he's bad for business. He's still cheered for by at least have the crowd. He still sells a crap ton of merchandise.
Not trying to egg you on either. I'm glad you want to bring it to an end, but it bothered me when you said that you didn't say something you clearly did
Do you see the smile on that quote?? That was a joke! OBVIOUSLY! I can't believe how uptight you are by taking that seriously. Like i'm here everyday insulting or stereotyping other people right?? Yeah, i do it every day, right? C'mon! Dude...if you can't tell a joke when you see one...well, that's not my problem. But seriously...dude....
Edit: This is why i avoid having conversations with certain elements of this forum. Some people here take things way too seriously.
Side note to the bold: I also told that i didn't even remembered saying it (so you see how seriously i said it) but it was probably a joke, or something taken out of context. In this case it was noth.
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I, too have a feeling that MITB will end with a MITB cash in after Punk wins. ADR would get INCREDIBLE heat, and be able to boast about outdoing Cena. Maybe he is champ til Suvivor Series
This would probably work well. Though i still believe in punk re-signing, taking a brake and returning. I can't believe Vince would let him shoot and leave. THis was the start of one of those 'To Last through the summer" storylines, so my guess is we haven't seen the last of punk after MITB.
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You said super Cena fans, which none of us are even fans of him. Showtime said he was INDIFFERENT to him. You might want to look that word up in the dictionary. It means he doesn't like him OR dislike him.
Did you miss read the part of not talking about it? I never said super anything. If i did, i'm sure it was taken out of context or i was probably joking. And my conversation with showtime about him beeing Cena's fan was a joke between two "co-workers". I haven't seen him complaining, so stop talking for the man.
Seriously...End of conversation!
Maybe this time people will read it. We all know that the best way of ending is is ENDING it now! OR else A will always want to give his final answer to B and so on. I have nothing against any of you, i actually had a fun time with the debate, though i was seriously missunderstood, but it's time to end it. So please, end it.
Ps: I know what indifferent means...you might want to look up in the diccionary the meaning of the word: OVER.
Fui!
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As a simple watcher of this debate I have to say that your whole "anyone who disagrees with me is a super Cena fan" is getting pretty annoying. You are essentially dismissing their opinions as fanboy love when your opinions, by that reasoning, could be dismissed as Cena-Hate.
I never said that. The only one i said that was marking for Cena was Showtime, and that was a joke. I0m affraid y'all got me wrong. If that was the case i would be angry and screaming and God knows what else. Most of you spent the debate not even understanding some of my points of view...and i really don't care. I mean...i don't like Cena's work, but the fact that he is where he is doesn't take away my good night of sleep. Seriously... you're the ones who at one point told, with other words, that i had to accept Cena's greatness. I don't have to accept squat. I also don't want you to accept he's evil. Hell, i don't even see him as evil. So stop talking about me as the guy who dismisses their opinions as fanboys. I care for there opinions as much as they care fore mine. Wich is nothing. But at least i don't say "YOu have to accept that he is the worst of all times". Dude, if you were a spectator, keep beeing one. I'm losing my patiente with the false judgement that has been done of me. You spent the last 24 hours criticizing me withou even taking some time to think and ask: "Wait a minute, afterall, having in mind that you aren't even american or english, and your native language is not english, can you try and explain us what you really think about the man?"
I'm done with this conversation. SOme of you asked for facts, and acused me of not showing mine, when i did, no one talked about them. Some of you speak in a arrogant and patronizing way, because you truly think you are actually gurus of pro wrestling. (I don't mean you effin rule
) Bottom line: None of us will change our minds, because we all have educated opinions about the subject. (YEs, educated. I'm not a 6 year old who says he doesn't like just because, as the rest of you ain't either)
I'm done with this debate. Cena isn't even liked by the crowd that pays his promotions bills, as most of them boo him. So yes, someone else could do better or at least the same with no boos. I rest my case. I'm not going to waste my time with someone like John Cena. I'd like to continue using this thread to it's original purpose, so please don't any of you speak anything else about the freakin debate, if you please.
Thank you!
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Throw some colourful clothes on Santino, feed him some corny lines, give him super human strength, and you got John Cena, hell Santino could probably do it better. Yes, I honestly believe that along with, like, half of WWE's fan base. (do you not hear the arenas?) They don't boo him because he's an effective heel, they boo him because they see through his b.s. I don't have a problem with Cena (or Orton), but I still think (what, 6 years later now?) that he's average and easily replaceable. I imagine he's valuable for Vince to have around since the guy seems pretty loyal and clean, but no he's not unique. I wouldn't put him on the same level as Austin, Hogan, Taker, Hart, Michaels, Rock etc. Vince wants him to be, but it just ain't happenin' right now. And that's what sucks about the whole Cena character, is that he's not on any of those guys level as far as entertaining goes, and at the same time he isn't at the level of Benoit/Eddy/Jericho/Punk(etc) as far as wrestling skill goes. It really puts him in this weird spot where he's getting booed by half the fans for being invincible.
I really wish I could be a Cena fan. The gimmick itself seems legit and his work in the ring is passable, but the way it's all presented is just a load of b.s.. I really can't blame Punk for leaving. The guy seems like he wants to be the best in the world, and is giving it everything that he can. It's gotta be tough sitting back and watching John cruise into WM on autopilot, and have Rock just jump in to the main event.
But yeah, merchandise and ticketz right.
I don't think Danielson or Low Ki have what it takes to make it to the top in WWE. Their looks are way off, and there's nothing all that unique to them outside of their wrestling style. No problems there.
Sounds good to me. The guy can work the mic, wrestle, handle any match type thrown at him, and play a heel to perfection. His look and gimmick are unique(I imagine it would reach out well to the non-Cena fans), so why the hell not? You probably expect me to be like "oh lolol i didnt mean 13 titlez!" but when we've had HHH, HBK, Flair and Edge hold that many in the past, I don't see any reason why Punk should not. I'm not saying he's better than those four, but I definitely think he has the potential to be just as good as them.
That's a stupid question, because I can't just go through a big list of names and superpush them, give them kewl t-shirts to wear, and feed them corny ass promo's for 18 months. Sry, it really is just a stupid question to ask, not your fault though because I've seen the same question pop up as a way of sticking it to someone. There's no point in me trying to convince you that Evan Bourne could fill John's shoes. I can't prove it because I don't have a TV show that millions of people watch. I can only hope that one day Vince and Paul prove it. I mean, Paul seems like he's making an effort to by making Sin Cara his project. It's not a bad project, it's just a big jump trying to push someone from lucha libre so quickly. I have faith in Paul and think he'll eventually get it right though.
*Forgot all about MVP. There's your Cena replacement. Let's get some of the nu style R-Truth in there as well. Some of the best faces start off as heels.
Amen. WHere were some of you guys last night when i had to deal alone with the super cena fans?
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I would mark if that happened, hopefully they don't mess this up, as it really is unique where WWE is concerned anyway.
I've been catchin up and it's good to see i'm not alone on the Cena Question.
Anyway, s it true that the E is planning on pulling the plug on the PG stuff now that linda lost the election? -
Okay, first off, my point was that to say others didn't use facts was completely false, and that you persisted in saying a weight difference is not a fact showed a major lack of understanding as to what I was even saying. Again, weight is not something you can say is not a fact: it's the definition of a fact. It's like saying a birthday's not a fact.
And while yes, it's a fact that those guys you mention were big and were pushed, it's also completely irrelevant to any point that anyone has made.
Like I said, everyone has a right to their opinion, even if they use that right to explain why another person's opinion is not supported by facts.
I0m sorry. I'm confused... How can it not be relevant to the discussion?? Weren't you (or someone) saying that my statement that the big guys were the ones beeing pushed was not bakced up? So i just backed it uo with examples. How can it not be relevant? Then there were the prizes...i answered to that on a previous page. I also answered to the Cebna beeing a big draw thing. And i even gave two names of workers that could do, in my opinion, the same or better in different circunstances as you requested.
Ps: I never meant to say that weight was not a fact! I alredy explained that! Of course it is a fact, as a birthday is. What i meant was aimed at weight not beeing a fact to prove certain things. But that doesn't matter, as it was an answer to something i missunderstood, so it really doesn't belong to the discussion. But i never meant to say it ain't a fact per say.
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Yuuuuuup. Also I mean that's the reason I used the fact. Saying that a weight difference is not a fact is just a red flag that something has gotten terribly, terribly lost in translation.
And I'm sorry, but no, if you think weights are not facts, something's wrong. This is not a "everyone is allowed to feel what they want" situation. A weight difference is a fact. It's pretty much the definition of a fact.
I meant it doesn't prove someone's better than someone. But if you meant it as a shot at the "big guys pushed" statement, i can definetely say that guys like Batista and Lashley aren't exactly small and they were moon pushed. Khali was a world champ and had a high profile feud with taker. Andre the giant, big show, hulk hogan, Diesel...and the list continues. Yes, Vince likes to push the big guys. That's a fact you can keep, just as the facts i expressed on the other page, countering the facts you said i din't answered too.
But yes, things were lost on the translation. Wich is probably why some of you missunderstood some of my statements. One of them was my michael bay-transformers analogy's answer. I would had given a greart answer to that in my native language. Nevermind. It was still a good debate, "and now it's yours...", as the guy on the Shwarzzenegger film said. Except in this case it would be: And now it's over. And now i'm really going to sleep.
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Wow. Just... wow. No one has said you're not allowed to dislike John Cena. But your other unsupported opinions were disagreed with by people that presented facts, and again, you asked for people to prove you wrong and generally misunderstood what the difference between fact and opinion was while opining that you're just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. Again, everyone else is just as entitled to disagree with you when you say things that aren't supported by "facts" or "reason."
A 15 pound difference is not a fact of anything...to me. If it is to you, you're allowed to feel that way, as i'm allowed to feel otherwise. I never said otherwise. Or never intended too. As i pointed out, the language thing sometimes stopped me from getting some things further explained. But enough with the whole thing. Let's agree that we disagree. No one can prove that A is better then B as a scientifical fact. So...i dislike him, you don't. The guy draws, i never said he didn't, or never intended too, that doesn't mean a lot of things, like him beeing the best or me having to accept anything.
Getting back on topic: I heard (unofficial sources) that wwe is pulling the plug on the PG era. Is this true? Did anyone hear or read something about it? As i said, no official sources on this, so that's why i'm asking.
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Somebody might need to go back to fact vs. opinion school. HBK's 15 pound weight difference is a fact. Cena's marketability is a fact. Cena being an all-time top draw is a fact. Here's more facts: Cena was WO wrestler of the year in 2007 and again in 2010, in addition to his five straight "most charismatic" awards. These are not opinions.I did actually present evidence of him being a merchandising phenom (something you said he wasn't)...which you chose to ignore.
I said i was going to bed and that i wasn't answering to this topic anymore, but again i have to step in.
The 15 pound weight difference to hbk is no fact. That doesn't make Cena better. And as for awards: Did cena win PWI match of the year 11 times, 7 of those in a row? I could even say that if Shawn Michaels didn't have a 4 year carreer threatning injury we would have been far greater than cena as a money cow. There's another name to you guys. The second one. Plus, telling that Cena marketed a lot doesn't actually proves he's better than anyone. Only proves he's one of the best draws ever, not one of the best workers ever. Avatar is the biggest box office draw out there and i'm pretty sure it isn't on the #1 spot of the majority of the critics all time #1 movie list. Besides even if it was i could still find someone stating they hate avatar. So no matter how you back it up, you can't prove he is the best as i can't prove he's the worst. I can only say why i don't like him, and you can only say why you like him. We can't prove squat,as it is a MATTER of OPINION! The only thing we can prove without a doubt are certainties, such as math, science, historical facts that are documented, etc. Who is the best at something is ALWAYS a question of opinion. Again...free will.
So i din't ignore your facts, i just answered them. Happy? You will never prove he's the best, i will never prove he's that bad, unless he starts wrestling like the Great Khali. Hell...even khali has people who like him and think he can work. So...matter of opinion. I rest my case. Seriously, enough of this subject. I'm off to bed. This time is for real. 'Night to all of you.
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Hence why your opinions were a well-reasoned and intelligent counter (no wonder they were ignored). Because they were based in facts, not asking others to prove that the things you said aren't true or saying (incorrectly) that everyone's opinion is equally relevant because no one is the "owner of the truth" (except, I assume, Ron Killings).I liked the joke, but i just answered those MIGHTY (not) facts presented. I don't just talk because. I exposed a reason of thinking. Not in a very eloquent way, because of the language barrier (that hurts me a lot in this discussion) but i did backed my answers. Anyway, i really enjoyed the conversation. So, i'm not here screaming and complaining and ranting. That alone proves i'm not an ignorant saying i'm right just because.
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If I could jump in here and say O-Town > Metallica. It's opinion and I would like to see you prove me wrong.
THIS. It may be irony,but i can prove that as much as anyone can prove me that cena works better then a stuffed animal. BEside, no facts were presented about him beeing better. YOu presented OPINIONS. Not numbers, figures, absloute evidences of greatness. Now i'm really off to bed.
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I'm actually going to add something and then i'm off to sleep. My point is that as far as i know, Cena may not be able to perform the "academy award winning movies" cause i never seen him doing so. I don't need to prove nothing becase i already prove it by saing i never saw him doing so. If you have examples of matches and or promos where you think he gets to that level, you're the ones who have to back your statements up.
Good night to all of you. I'm off to bed.
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Completely agreed. Pro wrestling is a work whose ultimate goal is taking money from the audience in exchange for watching people pretend to fight. The best measure of success is that money from the audience.
Also Cena works this way and cuts the promos he does because he knows it's successful: he's capable of "better" promos and "better" matches. You just have to look at his early Smackdown work or his OVW work to see he's capable of more athleticism than we see on a nightly basis. But that's not what made him millions of dollars, so why should he do it on a weekly basis? To say that he works this way because he's not talented displays uncanny ignorance of how the business works considering the present context.
It's like saying Michael Bay should make "better" movies because you don't like Transformers. It takes a lot of time, money, and effort, to make big dumb action like Transformers, and he's not going to change a formula that results in massive profits.
I mean I don't like Bay's work much either, but I get around that by watching something else instead, I don't whine about how he's a talentless moron and anyone could easily replace him as the director of record-breaking blockbusters.
I'm glad you said that. Your post proves you, and the other guys wrong. Pro Wrestling, just as movies, aren't just a money cow. Most people considers them to be artistic. And you don't see Transformers getting the oscar for best film. Cena is good as doing transformers and not an oscar winning film, to use your analogy. He migh be capable of it, (He isn't) he migh be capable of almost doing it...but he doesn't. And those who fee like it, may complain about him ,as much as you can defend him.
One thing is me saying he sucks. The other one is me thinking that i'm the owner of truth. I may be wrong about some things, as i'm not the owner of thruth, but i'm damn sure you're not right about all of them. So...there's no point in trying to reason with me by implying that i have to be wrong just because you see it that way, or by implying my opinion is not legit. Everyone has the right to say what they think. Or else i could also argue that i don't like Cena, I NEVER will, and all of you can cry about it, and it won't change my mind. SO...you really shouldn't cry about it. You don't care about what i think?? Great! Stop answering my post. I'm not going to change my mind, but i won't let people tell me that i HAVE to face the truth and the truth is Cena's greatness. No one id forced to agree with that point of view. I'm not saying some of you said i HAD to agree, but some of you did talk like i really had no choice but to agree. I have. I live in a free country, and i dislike the man. That will not change, and that is my constitutional right, as it is yours to disagree. At least i'm aware of that. I rest my case on this whole subject. Cause contrary to some of you i'm not trying to make you dislike Cena as you're trying to convince me into liking him. Wich the same as assuming your thoughts have to be the correct ones. Truly, i don't want to argue with anyone, and never because of John "I know only 5 wrestling moves" Cena. End of convesation. I'm not angry or offended with anyone, i like to talk without using ignorance, so i respect all your opinions, but this conversation would have to end eventually and i have better things to do.
I thank you all for the good debate. It's always good to have these "arguments" (so to speak) once in a while.
Edit: I backed my conclusions with my facts, as my conclusions are MY opinions, and not some ellaborate study...as this whole discussion is about MY opinion on Cena. And one of those conclusions was that the names weren't the issue (though i did throw a name into the table.) The point was discussing Cena itself. I don't really need to name anyone (i can even take some time and do a list when i have time,it that makes you sleep) because my point was never to discuss who could do it, my point was to discuss CENA especifically. Nad i backed my opinions based on what they are...my opinions. To say that Cena's match with A or B, or that Wrestler A or B is better then him proves anything is BS because it is also a matter of oppinion. It wouldn't prove anything if i made the damn list because it's a matter of OPINION. Maybe that's why there isnt' a world official ranking of best worker of all times that is recognizes by every soul on the planet. BECAUSE IT'S ARGUABLE, but not by just throwing names randomly. I could name guys who weren't pushed, you could disagree...i would ask you to 100% prove your point on something that hasn't happened, as you would too, and it would still be a matter of OPINION! SO, i don't have to face any facts....becasuse in my opinion he sucks! And guess what? I'm not alone on it. And guess what?? THat's the greatness of democracy and free will: No one is ever 100% right or wrong.
Edit 2: End of discussion. Time to get back on topic. So, please feel free to get back on topic. I won't be further fueling this discussion. But again, i thank you for the debate.
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Your inability to name a single wrestler that could be in Cena's spot and do better as well as replace him says all that needs to be said on the matter.
CM Punk. Your whole argument was just shattered. I named one.
Edit: "Pro wrestling isn't about "MOVEZ!"" WOW. Can you be more patronizing? (Did i spell it right?) Can you. Like i'm a mark or a 6 year old. TO say that to name the best is to point out who made more money is the same as saying that the best soccer player is the guy who scores more. And it ain't. That would be the same as saying Mario Jardel was the best player ever on the portuguese league or close to it. THose of you who don't know him or soccer...well you won't understand my point. My apologies in advance.
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Pretty sure that dress code story was a hoax. But yeah, Punk's been on a terrible decline since his title loss.
Finding someone who could do it better than Cena is already a stretch, but flat-out replacing Cena is a no-no. You can't replace what is booming, and Cena has been booming for years like a.. well, a goldmine. They need to keep Orton and Cena on top, especially with all the veterans who peace'd out recently. "A lot of people would pull it off" sounds so naive, you act like Cena's current status is a dime a dozen which is just laughable. As much as I dislike Cena's character, there's no denying he had that something special which allowed him to transcend the main-event scene. The WWE will exist after him, big draws like that won't keep popping up like lottery tickets though.
Maybe my dislike for the man's character does make me over react about him. I'll give you that much. After all, the man has entertainement skills and the E is a sports entertainement promotion. Maybe it's not that easy to replace the man,i'll go that far. But he's not the best of his generation, or any other. And to praise him THAT much might be a little bit exteme.
Well there you go.
Right! There i go. THis is not something you can use to defend him. To admit i would like him if i was a pure mark or a kid is the same thing as saying i'd think that O-Town, blue or any other boy band are better then Springsteen or Metallica. Dude...kids and marks generally go with the bubble gum. Cena is bubble gum. Even if he does it well, he's still portrayed in a bubble gumish way.
That's what you wanna believe bro. Plenty of things the WWE have pushed with considerable hype only for said angle/superstar to fall flat on its face.
True! But who know how many could have been better or equal to him? To say that the answer is none is impossible! It would even be ridiculous. Can you prove it? YOu guys keep asking me to prove this and that. PRove that! YOu can't. It's impossible.
He's just been treated questionably lately, rather than overall. It's to note nearly all of those accomplishments date to like two years ago minimum. Ever since he lost the belt to Taker, he's been dwindling around the upper-midcard scene, just being "that guy" in "that position".
Agree.
Answers in bold again.
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Honestly your opinion on John Cena is completely irrelevant (no offense intended) because you've shown in the past (several times) you are unable to admit to yourself and therefore to no one else that John Cena is the best at what he does of a generation. For whatever reason you not only don't care for the guys character (I don't know how you couldn't like the guy as a person I've never heard even a hint of a bad thing about the guy). You have a blind, illogical hatred for the man and you live in a delusional world where you could plug guys into Cena's role and have them be BIGGER.
So let me ask you name me these guys that could be bigger than John Cena. Are they currently employed by the WWE? Are they in ROH? TNA please tell me these guys that could gain the mass appeal, popularity and huge business profits for the company that John Cena has garnered for them in the past six years.
I never said i dislike him personally. Also, i don't need to admit he's the best of his generation when he is not. And i bet a lot that the people agreeing with me are more than the ones that don't agree. I don't have a blind hate for him, i know he's not the worst woker alive or close to it. But excuse me for not liking everything that vince shoves down people's throats, such as him and hogan. Was Hogan the best of his generation?NOOO! I think what we should say is that Cena is portrayed as the best of his generation and that worked out. It doesn't mean he is the best. He is not the best. As for names that could do the same...i'd rather have you taking pics, cause a lot of people would go far with that kind of push.
Edit: My opinions are as relevant as anyone else's. I'm not offended, but you should rephrase that.
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I would also like to point out that Cena has that rare ability to make people raise their game. Truth, Edge, Miz, and Batista all saw their work improve when they were working with Cena. He has "it"
Arguable, to say the least. To say that Edge raised his game with Cena... i'd rather say that Cena raised his game with Edge. Let's not even talk about Truth. Are you really going that way with someone like Ron Killings?
As for the Miz, give him some time and you'll change your mind. I won't argue about Dave though...i mean... Batista needs to be carried by everyone. But why don't you talk about Cena's terrible performance vs JBL on Wrestlemania! Really...Cena sucked in that match. I think my dislike for his work was established there. I mean, it already existed, but that match helped cultivating it.And yes, you do mark a little for him. YOu have to admit it.
But hey, i'm pretty sure he's not the worst worker in the world, but the way he was shoved down people's throats made it impossible to like him professionally. (Can't criticize him as a person, as i don't know the man) And i know i'm not alone in it, right CM Punk? Edit: I rememer HBK entering the arena and kicking the hell out of evolution, and lots of security guards. How is that not beeing able of "beating everyone in a bar?"
But it's just awards...chosen by a few guys...
The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*
in The Dog Pound
Posted
You sir, are beeing extremely incorrect. I believe i never use the word ridiculous towards your person or your actions, do not do the same with me. Now you're the one looking...you know what.