Journal discussion thread

[rajde]

I hate this feature. I think this feature is too broad there should be alot more races then just 8. I especially don't like Asian category since it is too broad do East Indians fall into that category?

[Eddy Snow]

[QUOTE=rajde;404006]I hate this feature. I think this feature is too broad there should be alot more races then just 8. I especially don't like Asian category since it is too broad do East Indians fall into that category?[/QUOTE] I'd say Middle Eastern, but lol at you hating such a simple feature..

[rajde]

There is a difference and when you add race it doesn't make it a simple feature.

[Eddy Snow]

[QUOTE=rajde;404013]There is a difference and when you add race it doesn't make it a simple feature.[/QUOTE]Yes but if you're going to be completely anal we'd have to have every race put into the game. For me it does the important thing of stopping gimmicks being applied where they shouldn't, e.g. yesterday I added 'Cholo' to the database, that when the time comes will be defined as being 'Hispanic' to stop any Japanese Cholos popping up, and on the same token any Hispanic Yakuza turning up. It isn't perfect but solves a problem, and comparing to how its done in real life, it's pretty comparable.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Chriswok;403985]The Race addition seems a bit pointless really, personally don't know if it was needed. The 'Boost' feature could have been tied in with where a person was born surely?[/QUOTE] No. Where a person is born doesn't necessarily define where their base is or who they might have made the biggest impact with. You want an example? Chris "Lionheart" Jericho. Likewise, I was born in Brooklyn, NY but if I go to Houston or the Mission District in San Francisco or parts of Miami, I get the same reception there as I do at home. With race, people can pop for someone who looks like/acts like/reflects positively on them. Rey in Mexico, Regal and Burchill (and Nikita) in the UK, Cryme Tyme in MSG (or Houston or LA or Oakland or...), Lilian Garcia in Miami (yes, I know she's a Spaniard but she gets huge pops in Miami), etc. I'm guessing Adam didn't JUST put in boosts for race. I'm sure it ties in with nationality as well (which is where you were born). If you haven't noticed, the dev journal postings have been really simplistic. He's not going to tell you everything there is to know about a feature (he never does).

[rajde]

[QUOTE=Eddy Snow;404019]Yes but if you're going to be completely anal we'd have to have every race put into the game. For me it does the important thing of stopping gimmicks being applied where they shouldn't, e.g. yesterday I added 'Cholo' to the database, that when the time comes will be defined as being 'Hispanic' to stop any Japanese Cholos popping up, and on the same token any Hispanic Yakuza turning up. It isn't perfect but solves a problem, and comparing to how its done in real life, it's pretty comparable.[/QUOTE] I don't think there should be a ton of races but maybe like 20 or so to better define race. Maybe add Indian, Japanese(since they take a huge part of the wrestling world), southeastern asian, etc. I don't think there needs to be 50 but just add a few more from what I see now there is too much generalisation.

[Chriswok]

For something we've done without in all the installments of Adam's work, the Race addition just seems to be the one we could have done without so far. Yeah, ok, it will stop, or hinder the development of Mexican Yokozunas and Japanese Cowboys, but since when did the AI assign people gimmicks? Users have always controlled the gimmicks. I'm not all out against the addition of the races, but I don't think it was something that was so desperately needed in the game. One things for sure, the next installment of TEW is going to be a big job to mod for. Wouldn't call it a great addition, but I wouldn't call it a definite no-no. Could have done without it, but I'll just have to see how it goes once the games running.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=rajde;404022]I don't think there should be a ton of races but maybe like 20 or so to better define race. Maybe add Indian, Japanese(since they take a huge part of the wrestling world), southeastern asian, etc. I don't think there needs to be 50 but just add a few more from what I see now there is too much generalisation.[/QUOTE] Also for those complaining there are too few, keep something in mind. At this stage in the game, Adam's laying down the groundwork of the feature. That takes more than I need "Black, Hispanic, Caucausian, etc." He's working on putting all the mechanisms that take notice of race as well. This sounds like it could be one of those features that gets expanded on in directions you want once the meat of the game is completed.

[rajde]

I understand that I am just saying my dissatisfaction with the feature. I think this is tricky, just looking at one of the comments early someone mentioned Indian would be put under Middle Eastern. Now that sounds pretty racist to me when someone says something like that. Really this is tricky to put something like race in a game when it could not turn-out well.

[Adam Ryland]

As cappyboy said, this is a feature that could easily be expanded upon, much in the same way that WMMA extended its amount of nationalities over time. Posting that you "hate this feature" is just ridiculously negative and completely unnecessary.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=rajde;404022]I don't think there should be a ton of races but maybe like 20 or so to better define race. Maybe add Indian, Japanese(since they take a huge part of the wrestling world), southeastern asian, etc. I don't think there needs to be 50 but just add a few more from what I see now there is too much generalisation.[/QUOTE] rajde, those aren't races. ;) Those are nationalities and they're already in the game to a certain extent. Races are things like Caucasoid, Negroid, etc. The far more simplified version is 'White', 'Black', 'Asian', 'Hispanic'. People understand that moreso than your idea of adding 20. What about multiracial people (like Layla El)? Do you add entries for mulatto negro or slash type designations? Come on. You're being way too sensitive over an issue that is OBVIOUSLY going to be expanded upon later on. These are the building blocks. From this foundation, Adam can take it into any number of different directions. Would you rather every feature be either complete or completely left out? If that's the case, let's rip the whole chemistry mechanic out of the game because it doesn't include announce team chemistry! Take out promotion product because you can't perfectly simulate FMW! In fact, take the event and match type parts out too because it doesn't allow you to accurately simulate the cachét of the Royal Rumble or Cage Wars or any shows built around a specific type of match.

[Eddy Snow]

[QUOTE=rajde;404033]I think this is tricky, just looking at one of the comments early someone mentioned Indian would be put under Middle Eastern. Now that sounds pretty racist to me when someone says something like that. [/QUOTE] How on Earth is that Racist? Yet again rajde makes a mountain out of a molehill.

[rajde]

I know the difference between nationality and race. However, I don't think what I said previous had anything to do with nationality. Maybe I am looking too much into what I think race is but still this feature could use a few more categories maybe even an editor along with it. [QUOTE=Eddy Snow;404039]How on Earth is that Racist? Yet again rajde makes a mountain out of a molehill.[/QUOTE] How isn't that racist how would you feel if you would categorized in with one group when you aren't apart of that group. I am not saying the feature is racist and I am saying is that, that specific comment was racist. Maybe I should have made that more clear instead of lumping everything together but I was just referring to a previous comment. [QUOTE=Adam Ryland;404035]As cappyboy said, this is a feature that could easily be expanded upon, much in the same way that WMMA extended its amount of nationalities over time. Posting that you "hate this feature" is just ridiculously negative and completely unnecessary.[/QUOTE] At first glance I didn't like it because of the possible restrictions in the way it was presented. However, if it is executed right I like it. Even though it would be unconsequential to add it to a user character I would want it to accuractely reflect my race. Now I'll shut up and let other people talk about this.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=rajde;404041]I know the difference between nationality and race. However, I don't think what I said previous had anything to do with nationality. Maybe I am looking too much into what I think race is but still this feature could use a few more categories maybe even an editor along with it.[/QUOTE] The problem is, you want specifics when generalities work very well as a starting point. Yes, you can break Asians up into national categories (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) but is that necessary to begin to add the feature? No. People know what you mean when you say someone is 'Asian' or 'Black'. If they need further information, they ask for it ("Where from?"). In this case, the person would look at a worker's [B][I]nationality[/I][/B] for more information. And Asian is the only category where this would apply. You don't look at Remo's bio and say, "from Africa?" For what it's being used for in this instance, according to the journal, you don't need 20 different racial designations. Honestly, it seems like a case of 'Steve Flash - White. Okay, he fits the 'wigger' gimmick'. You don't need to see if he's French Canadian or Ukrainian or Irish. Besides, many nationalities don't like being placed in their general racial grouping. Native Chinese don't like being grouped with Japanese or Cambodians or Koreans, even though they ARE all technically Asians. Do you then split them all up as a result?

[djthefunkchris]

rajde, since Adam already said he can expand on this, I would just wait and put in a suggestion to "fix" the things your worried about. I see your point. I aggree to an extent, but I feel it was totally innocent, and I believe you do as well. Remi made a good point as well, although obvious. Still, don't just skim through the post, he always has valid points. For this feature, if I were you, I would definately do some research, and make a proper suggestion for additions (not only for you, but for other's you would think would need it as well). Don't take innocent comments and make a racist deal out of it.

[rajde]

[QUOTE=Remianen;404046]The problem is, you want specifics when generalities work very well as a starting point. Yes, you can break Asians up into national categories (Japanese, Korean, Chinese) but is that necessary to begin to add the feature? No. People know what you mean when you say someone is 'Asian' or 'Black'. If they need further information, they ask for it ("Where from?"). In this case, the person would look at a worker's [B][I]nationality[/I][/B] for more information. And Asian is the only category where this would apply. You don't look at Remo's bio and say, "from Africa?" For what it's being used for in this instance, according to the journal, you don't need 20 different racial designations. Honestly, it seems like a case of 'Steve Flash - White. Okay, he fits the 'wigger' gimmick'. You don't need to see if he's French Canadian or Ukrainian or Irish. Besides, many nationalities don't like being placed in their general racial grouping. Native Chinese don't like being grouped with Japanese or Cambodians or Koreans, even though they ARE all technically Asians. Do you then split them all up as a result?[/QUOTE] I believe you are reffering to my one comment about Japanese being a seperate race, I think I was wrong about that. I just say make an editor the modders should be able to find the perfect balance and if someone doesn't like the current amount just add some or get rid of some. One other thing I have to say I hope I am not confusing this more than it should be I have a feeling my understanding of race maybe different then other peoples. Really, I don't think it is an easy thing to define or an easy thing to put into a game.

[BurningHamster]

Not crazy about the race feature. One more box to tick for mod makers and it would get confusing for some workers who are of mixed race.

[wilts]

OK. So far I have seen a lot of talk about 'editors' for the race category. As far I can imagine, this falls under the same category as a suggestion made a couple of weeks ago about the morality stat. Don't worry if you missed that one. Basically, I made a point then, and I will make it again. When you mention an 'editor', you want it to be user definable. OK, if race was a stand-alone statistic then I would suggest there would be no problem with it, but when (as stated in the dev journal) race will be tied in to such features as gimmicks, allowing user definable races is a no go. Look at it this way, a mod creates a mod, but is pressured into adding more races to it, the suggested race then falls out of line with the existing thus requiring all new races to be added in place of the existing. Each and every gimmick would then need to be reset with the correct race, are you volunteering to do that? If you are, then great. Like I have said before, it is all a matter of interpretation, if it says 'xyz' then you can interpret it and apply it to 'zyx' 'yxz' 'xzy' if you want. From what was post in the dev journal, it sounds fine how it is, if people want extras, be prepared for extra work. Remember, there can be too much of a good thing. OK, finished now, a bit long, sorry if it is not to clear, a bit of a rush job. Cheers

[lazorbeak]

It's already been said, but people are looking at this feature way too hard. The way I see it, this serves two purposes: 1) a gimmick exclusion engine: your Samoan Savage can't be played by a Swede. There aren't that many gimmicks that are exclusive, but like gender, certain gimmicks won't work. I also hope this means more default gimmicks. 2) The Rey Mysterio effect. A guy gets some boost based on matching local demographics. As far as what an Indian guy should be listed as, why not just leave as "other," the way it is now for people from areas with no real wrestling presence. No bonus, no race-specific gimmicks. The only Indian guy I can even think of in the C-Verse is Kashmir Singh, so it's not like this is going to have a huge effect on the default data (or even most mods). I'm not sure how the feature is going to be handled, but I hope it's a multiple radio button type feature for folks like The Rock.

[Irish Wolf]

[QUOTE=lazorbeak;404106]As far as what an Indian guy should be listed as, why not just leave as "other," the way it is now for people from areas with no real wrestling presence. No bonus, no race-specific gimmicks. The only Indian guy I can even think of in the C-Verse is Kashmir Singh, so it's not like this is going to have a huge effect on the default data (or even most mods).[/QUOTE] I bring you Sonjay Dutt so there is a gimmick for your Indian guy.

[tom_wk]

A couple of days late I know, but with regard to finishes, does anybody else feel like one is still missing? What I mean is quick/suprise pin. Would allow a face to get an upset victory and the opponent to not be hurt by it as much, basically like tainted win (grabbing ropes etc) but without cheating. ie just a quick little roll up while the opponent is off-guard. Does that make sense?

[lazorbeak]

By all means, let's change the game mechanics to accommodate one midcarder in a cult promotion. While we're at it, let's add: Kumar, the wrestling doctor. Taj, the foreign exchange student gimmick. And pretty much any other role Kal Penn has played. But seriously, I don't think "guru" should be a race-based gimmick.

[rajde]

How is that what about Great Khali, Tiger Jeet Singh, Gama Singh, Tiger Ali Singh, etc. There are more than a few Indian wrestlers in the sport.

[Irish Wolf]

I was actually just making a point about their being Indian gimmicks out there. I'm pretty sure being Indian is a nationality and not a race, although I could be wrong.

[rajde]

I am pretty insulted when people don't say that Indian is a race it is. If you don't know that you don't know much about races. I'll also make this clear this is about the previous comment not the feature at all.