WANTED: Total In-Game Customization/Editing

[MaxxHexx]

Do I want full customization? Yes. Do I know how to code? No. Frankly lets just leave the man alone as he knows whats best. He hasn't let us down in the past so I am sure he has done all he can. If it isn't possible than we need to give up the dream.

[G-Prime]

[QUOTE=D16NJD16;372825]I'm gonna assume your misunderstanding me[/quote] [QUOTE=D16NJD16;372825]I'm just talking allowing any customization capable.[/QUOTE] With sentences like that, it's hard to understand why someone would misunderstand you :D

[DanielW4444]

I'd just like to edit stuff like, Injuries- create them or lengthen/shorten/erase them TV Show- timeslot, length, network, show prestige, day of the week, live or not, Network- size and locations PPVs- prestige Matches- Add new matches and edit the current ones Storylines- Add new storylines and edit the current ones Angles- Add new Angles and edit the current ones Edit the nations and the popularity of the sport in each region just stuff like that

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373025]TV Show- timeslot[/QUOTE] That would be the perfect example of what I'm talking about; on the surface that might look like something that's easy to do, but in reality you're forgetting that the entire schedule is recalculated at the start of each season, so if you move one show from its time slot then the game would then have to move something else to fill the gap and also move whatever was in the time slot you've now occupied....and pretty soon you're in a position where you have to recalculate the entire schedule again....and once you've done that, you've got to then take into account that every non-live show now potentially has an error in that it may have missing or skipped content (i.e. if it gets taped on a Monday to show on a Tuesday, and now it's somewhere else, it may reach the next showing before it gets to the next taping...so there's no content for it to broadcast). So in reality it's not quite as simple as just picking a new time slot from a dropdown list and hitting save.

[DanielW4444]

I understand that, how about an in game way to do it. Like all the TV stuff I said, actually be able to renegotiate that stuff without going off the air then making negotiating a new deal. I dunno, maybe you already have some of this planned out.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373075]I understand that, how about an in game way to do it. Like all the TV stuff I said, actually be able to renegotiate that stuff without going off the air then making negotiating a new deal. I dunno, maybe you already have some of this planned out.[/QUOTE] That's not really relevant to this thread.

[MaxxHexx]

Case closed. Adam's right-random people on the forum wrong. Now let's let the man get on with the important things he must do rather than moniter us.

[DanielW4444]

[QUOTE=MaxxHexx;373121]Case closed. Adam's right-random people on the forum wrong. Now let's let the man get on with the important things he must do rather than moniter us.[/QUOTE] I don't exactly like being called "random people", especially being told I'm wrong about a video game idea. There is no right or wrong

[DanielW4444]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;373083]That's not really relevant to this thread.[/QUOTE] well you said you couldnt do it through an editor, so I ask if you could make it where it could actually be done in the game. or maybe do like some other sports sims do where they have a commissioner mode and you can edit stuff, and if that conflicts with something, you get a pop up saying the problem, then you could just go delete that problem or edit it, and finally, fix it how the original problem.

[Self]

You know, a lot of the editing suggestions on your list are... well... they're pretty much cheating. Not the create-angles and create-match stuff, but tweaking Pops, Injuries, Networks etc. I guess on one hand it's nice to have total freedom to simulate your fantasy feuds, but this is a GAME we're talking about too. Computer games have to have rules and goals to provide a challenge to the player and therefore be worthwhile and fun. To be able to edit stuff mid-game somewhat lessens the challenge, don't you think? I use the in-game editing facility, I mean, I'm constantly bumping up SWF/WWE's prestige so they stay on top a bit longer, raiding my talent and so on, but honestly, I slightly hate myself for doing that, and if I had the power to edit Networks and Injuries to my own ends, I would do that too, and the hate will rise. Off topic comment. I'm the same with the auto-booker. I'm 87% against having one, but I know if it was there, I'd use it to get past that annoying last show before the PPV. Which would lessen the experience for me. There are levels of edit-ability that would be cool. For example, I'd love to create a 8-women-dressed-as-mounties-fight-while-riding-bears-match... That I would like.

[DanielW4444]

[QUOTE=Self;373186]You know, a lot of the editing suggestions on your list are... well... they're pretty much cheating. Not the create-angles and create-match stuff, but tweaking Pops, Injuries, Networks etc. I guess on one hand it's nice to have total freedom to simulate your fantasy feuds, but this is a GAME we're talking about too. Computer games have to have rules and goals to provide a challenge to the player and therefore be worthwhile and fun. To be able to edit stuff mid-game somewhat lessens the challenge, don't you think? I use the in-game editing facility, I mean, I'm constantly bumping up SWF/WWE's prestige so they stay on top a bit longer, raiding my talent and so on, but honestly, I slightly hate myself for doing that, and if I had the power to edit Networks and Injuries to my own ends, I would do that too, and the hate will rise. Off topic comment. I'm the same with the auto-booker. I'm 87% against having one, but I know if it was there, I'd use it to get past that annoying last show before the PPV. Which would lessen the experience for me. There are levels of edit-ability that would be cool. For example, I'd love to create a 8-women-dressed-as-mounties-fight-while-riding-bears-match... That I would like.[/QUOTE] I'll refer you to this statement from D16 [QUOTE=D16NJD16;372399]Ive always felt very strongly about this subject ever since the game went from a free ware game to a 35$ game. I mean if your paying for a game, it should be [I]yours[/I], to set to any feasible personal preference you'd like.[/QUOTE] I dont want to use it all to benefit me all the time though, I want to add stuff for other promotions too. In baseball sims, when the teams in my league fall apart, I can go in, edit some of their prospects, get them a more profitable TV deal, give them a higher budget, make them more popular, put their players on long term contracts and make them relevant to the game. Like sometimes in the game, I'll play as TNA, and WWE cancels RAW, hypothetically in the baseball game, when that happened, I could put it back on the air, in TEW right now, I cant. Just about everything I've described can be done in some way on the predecessor to TEW, called EWR

[Self]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373194]I'll refer you to this statement from D16[/QUOTE] I understand this statement to a degree, but as someone on the fringes of a creative industry myself, I ultimately don't think that after I've spent months or years crafting something, people should, for a minimal fee, be able to mess around with it as much as they wish, or demand changes. Example? In my opinion, George Lucas is allowed to change the Star Wars films as much as he wants. They are his creative property, and as long as the financiers are cool with it, he can change the SFX to his heart's content. Joe Public doesn't have the right to demand that Han shoot first, no matter how much cooler that makes the character. Not the best example, but I'm a film guy. In the same way, Adam is creating an experience. You have no right to [I]demand[/I] features (the fact that he reads suggestions is amazing in itself). [QUOTE=DanielW4444;373194] In baseball sims, when the teams in my league fall apart, I can go in, edit some of their prospects, get them a more profitable TV deal, give them a higher budget, make them more popular, put their players on long term contracts and make them relevant to the game.[/QUOTE] If those games can do that, then great. Clearly TEW works around a system where that isn't possible. At least not in the immediate future. [QUOTE=DanielW4444;373194]Like sometimes in the game, I'll play as TNA, and WWE cancels RAW, hypothetically in the baseball game, when that happened, I could put it back on the air, in TEW right now, I cant.[/QUOTE] Partly that's the fault of the Mod you're using, and partly that's because TEW07 doesn't, in my opinion, properly simulate Sports Entertainment promotions when run by the computer. Balance is hard. TV Shows are something I'd accept a bit more scope with on the editing front, but from the sounds of it, it just isn't possible. [QUOTE=DanielW4444;373194]Just about everything I've described can be done in some way on the predecessor to TEW, called EWR.[/QUOTE] Apples and oranges dude. Two very different games. The sheer depth of TEW makes it a big challenge... I'm assuming. BTW. I'm not trying to stomp on your opinion. You have every right to have it. I just really like discussing things, and articulating my own opinions. Keep on rocking.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373194]I'll refer you to this statement from D16 I dont want to use it all to benefit me all the time though, I want to add stuff for other promotions too. In baseball sims, when the teams in my league fall apart, I can go in, edit some of their prospects, get them a more profitable TV deal, give them a higher budget, make them more popular, put their players on long term contracts and make them relevant to the game. Like sometimes in the game, I'll play as TNA, and WWE cancels RAW, hypothetically in the baseball game, when that happened, I could put it back on the air, in TEW right now, I cant. Just about everything I've described can be done in some way on the predecessor to TEW, called EWR[/QUOTE] Yeah, but in TEW you can edit the WWE to give them more overness, more money, make their workers more popular, extend their contracts... Almost all the things you can do with OOTP, which is in its 6th (?) generation. The customization is there, your problem seems to be on the modification end- I think most of the Real World mods give the WWE every TV contract they have with every network, which is more than the game engine accepts.

[alden]

From a game design stand point it is just never ever going to happen. Would it be great to be able to offer players the ability to do everything they want to do? Yes, ofcourse but you have to look at the code base adam is dealing with. As far as i can tell it is still writen using basic *visual basic most likely*. Basic is well just like it's name sounds. There are just some things you can't do in it that you can with a programing language like C++ or something more "advanced". On top of the game it self you have to have a stable database. That might be more complicated then the code base it self. Database design is a very long and complicated matter. I am not talking about the editor on this one. I am talking about the way the game code deals with the database code. There are limitations on the base it self pure and simple.

[DanielW4444]

I thought he switched to a new software when he started TEW

[alden]

a new "base" yes but it is still writen under the same computer language. Everything is writen useing only a handfull of languages. Almost all games like this are visual basic. He wrote about useing a new "engine" meaning how the game runs, it has nothing to do with the actull programing language.

[Lucied]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373194]I'll refer you to this statement from D16[/QUOTE] That statement, quite simply, is pure fantasy. The idea that a game [I]should[/I] let you edit everything is absurd. Not all mainstream PC games give you access to modify the game. Very few actually give you the tools to completely modify all aspects of the game. Most mod tools are restricted in what you're able to modify. Now, I know that I'm comparing two vastly different types of games. But the statement you refer was rather ambiguous. Some people get a sense of entitlement. That, because they paid for a license to use the product (not ownership, but a license to use), they should have complete reign over things. The reason they aren't is usually to prevent people from breaking it. Because if people break it, they go to tech support. It floods tech support with people who broke the software by using it in ways they shouldn't have. Comparing TEW to other simulation programs is ridiculous, because they are nothing alike. They're made using different programming languages, they likely use different database software, and every aspect is different from a developer standpoint. Just because one game can do it doesn't mean another can. From a pure developer standpoint, TEW cannot possibly allow users to edit everything while in the middle of a game. As Adam explained, it would break the game unless the user is extremely careful. And it cannot be assumed that users will be careful. If it was allowed, there would be mass complaints of corrupt save games because the user edited or deleted something they shouldn't have. My computer programming instructor, while teaching error catching, said that to make a good program, you have to anticipate any and all errors, and prevent them from happening. Assume the user doesn't know what they're doing, in a sense. Don't assume they just know what to do. Cover all bases. And that's why TEW has a very limited in-game editor.

[DanielW4444]

[QUOTE=Lucied;373412]That statement, quite simply, is pure fantasy. The idea that a game [I]should[/I] let you edit everything is absurd. Not all mainstream PC games give you access to modify the game. Very few actually give you the tools to completely modify all aspects of the game. Most mod tools are restricted in what you're able to modify.[/quote] No it isnt absurd and the best Text based PC games do. [QUOTE]Now, I know that I'm comparing two vastly different types of games. But the statement you refer was rather ambiguous. Some people get a sense of entitlement. That, because they paid for a license to use the product (not ownership, but a license to use), they should have complete reign over things. The reason they aren't is usually to prevent people from breaking it. Because if people break it, they go to tech support. It floods tech support with people who broke the software by using it in ways they shouldn't have.[/QUOTE] the stuff can be made fool proof, like when you are trying to edit the game, and you do something wrong, have a little pop up that says "you cant do that without fixing this...ect" IE: one game I play, you can't have more than 100 Million dollars, if I set it higher, it justs goes down to 100 Million. [QUOTE]Comparing TEW to other simulation programs is ridiculous, because they are nothing alike. They're made using different programming languages, they likely use different database software, and every aspect is different from a developer standpoint. Just because one game can do it doesn't mean another can. From a pure developer standpoint, TEW cannot possibly allow users to edit everything while in the middle of a game. As Adam explained, it would break the game unless the user is extremely careful. And it cannot be assumed that users will be careful. If it was allowed, there would be mass complaints of corrupt save games because the user edited or deleted something they shouldn't have.[/QUOTE] If I cant compare it to other games, what can I compare it to? [QUOTE]My computer programming instructor, while teaching error catching, said that to make a good program, you have to anticipate any and all errors, and prevent them from happening. Assume the user doesn't know what they're doing, in a sense. Don't assume they just know what to do. Cover all bases. And that's why TEW has a very limited in-game editor.[/QUOTE] Okay??? Now for the future, PLEASE dont tell me ideas that I have are "absurd" and "ridiculous"

[D16NJD16]

Hmm. If it can't be done I have nothing more to say then I suppose, I just always figured it was a creative decison, to boost the "challenge", because I seem to remember that being the defense a few years/games ago.

[Akki]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373422]No it isnt absurd and the best Text based PC games do. the stuff can be made fool proof, like when you are trying to edit the game, and you do something wrong, have a little pop up that says "you cant do that without fixing this...ect" IE: one game I play, you can't have more than 100 Million dollars, if I set it higher, it justs goes down to 100 Million.[/QUOTE] I'm assuming Adam has already included all the customization that we can do. Fool-proofing things would be useless, because it would be a lot more coding for him and would change absolutely nothing. So, after Adam has clearly stated that there are very good reasons why these things aren't in (not just in his opinion, but truly for gameplay reasons), I agree that this is absurd. "All the best test-based PC games" having full customization is an extremely subjective statement, and is also absurd. Unless they all come from one company or something. In that case, I apologize. But all games (sometimes even those from the same publisher) run on different engines, and the TEW engine just doesn't support what you want. Stop crying.

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373075]I understand that, how about an in game way to do it. Like all the TV stuff I said, actually be able to renegotiate that stuff without going off the air then making negotiating a new deal. I dunno, maybe you already have some of this planned out.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Adam Ryland;373083]That's not really relevant to this thread.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DanielW4444;373179]well you said you couldn't do it through an editor, so I ask if you could make it where it could actually be done in the game. or maybe do like some other sports sims do where they have a commissioner mode and you can edit stuff, and if that conflicts with something, you get a pop up saying the problem, then you could just go delete that problem or edit it, and finally, fix it how the original problem.[/QUOTE] I think what Adam is referring to, is that these things may or may not be implemented, but we need to let him tell us that in the developer's journal. I don't think he meant it was irrelevant to the game.. Just irrelevant compared to this threads topic. All the things you listed seem to be more in the way of additional options, which will be told in the Journal. Basically, let's see what's going to be implemented, the journals just getting started.

[Lucied]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373422]No it isnt absurd and the best Text based PC games do.[/quote] First, "best" is subjective. Second, I said "mainstream" PC games. Meaning FPS, RTS, MMO, etc. Text-based games are a very small niche genre. Third, I said [B]"should."[/B] As in, no game developer, no matter what type of game they make, is required to make their game fully customizable. They are not required to bow to the end user's requests. They do not HAVE to allow you to modify their game to your hearts content. [quote]the stuff can be made fool proof, like when you are trying to edit the game, and you do something wrong, have a little pop up that says "you cant do that without fixing this...ect" IE: one game I play, you can't have more than 100 Million dollars, if I set it higher, it justs goes down to 100 Million.[/quote] If you think it's so easy, then why don't I sit you in front of the raw code for a game, and see if you can figure it out. It's not as simple as you might think. When a user does something, a piece of code takes the request, and executes it. If such a check were in play, the code would have to take the request, check that change against every table in the database, and then calculate what the damage would be if said change would be made. Then it has to be able to tell if it would break something, stop itself from making the change, and pop up a message telling the user not to do it. Quite simply, it would take hundreds of lines of code to check for every possible change a user could make, just to make sure it won't break something else. It's not a simple fix, by any stretch of the imagination. [quote]If I cant compare it to other games, what can I compare it to?[/quote] You can't compare it to other games because they're not written using the same components. Simply put, there are different methods of making stuff work in different languages. Some languages have restrictions that others don't. I don't know VB6, nor do I know C++, so I don't know how a C++ game would compare to a VB6 game on the code level. [quote]Okay??? Now for the future, PLEASE dont tell me ideas that I have are "absurd" and "ridiculous"[/QUOTE] I'm not saying your ideas are ridiculous, as much as I'm saying your presumptions that it's "easy" or that they "should" do it because other games do is ridiculous. The idea isn't really absurd. But your insistence that, because this other game does it, that TEW should be able to. You don't realize how complex programming a game is, do you?

[Akki]

[QUOTE=Lucied;373464]If you think it's so easy, then why don't I sit you in front of the raw code for a game, and see if you can figure it out. It's not as simple as you might think. When a user does something, a piece of code takes the request, and executes it. If such a check were in play, the code would have to take the request, check that change against every table in the database, and then calculate what the damage would be if said change would be made. Then it has to be able to tell if it would break something, stop itself from making the change, and pop up a message telling the user not to do it.[/quote] Exactly my point. I think that even with the editor now, as well as closing the game the wrong way and other occasional bugs, it's still very easy for the game to become corrupted. [QUOTE=Lucied;373464]You can't compare it to other games because they're not written using the same components. Simply put, there are different methods of making stuff work in different languages. Some languages have restrictions that others don't. I don't know VB6, nor do I know C++, so I don't know how a C++ game would compare to a VB6 game on the code level.[/QUOTE] C++ is a lot more complex than VB. As such, it's also much harder to use and implement. I think the GUI for TEW would be pretty hard to implement in C++, although it could probably make for a better game. Still, Adam feel comfortable with VB, and I'm not complaining. I guess it just depends how you learned. I learned C++ and Java first, and I know very little VB. If and when my C++ game comes out, people will be able to see the difference.

[DanielW4444]

[QUOTE=Lucied;373464]First, "best" is subjective. Second, I said "mainstream" PC games. Meaning FPS, RTS, MMO, etc. Text-based games are a very small niche genre. Third, I said [B]"should."[/B] As in, no game developer, no matter what type of game they make, is required to make their game fully customizable. They are not required to bow to the end user's requests. They do not HAVE to allow you to modify their game to their hearts content.[/QUOTE] For that matter, TEW isnt a mainstream game either. By best, I mean the ones that get the 9/10s and 5/5s on all the gaming websites, alot of times the sites praise them for how much you can customize. And to customize a game like COD4, you would have to break down graphics, on TEW you dont. And to think you were dogging me for comparing a text based game to another text based game [QUOTE]If you think it's so easy, then why don't I sit you in front of the raw code for a game, and see if you can figure it out. It's not as simple as you might think. When a user does something, a piece of code takes the request, and executes it. If such a check were in play, the code would have to take the request, check that change against every table in the database, and then calculate what the damage would be if said change would be made. Then it has to be able to tell if it would break something, stop itself from making the change, and pop up a message telling the user not to do it. Quite simply, it would take hundreds of lines of code to check for every possible change a user could make, just to make sure it won't break something else. It's not a simple fix, by any stretch of the imagination.[/QUOTE] I NEVER said it was easy, quote me where I said it. [QUOTE]You can't compare it to other games because they're not written using the same components. Simply put, there are different methods of making stuff work in different languages. Some languages have restrictions that others don't. I don't know VB6, nor do I know C++, so I don't know how a C++ game would compare to a VB6 game on the code level.[/QUOTE] That would make sense if you hadn't just got done using "mainstream" games like COD and Crysis to back up your points on why this game shouldn't allow modifications. Atleast my comparisons are in the Text based sim genre... [QUOTE]I'm not saying your ideas are ridiculous, as much as I'm saying your presumptions that it's "easy" or that they "should" do it because other games do is ridiculous. The idea isn't really absurd. But your insistence that, because this other game does it, that TEW should be able to. You don't realize how complex programming a game is, do you?[/QUOTE] Again, I never said it was easy, I said it was possible. Sometimes the hardest work pays off with the biggest reward.

[alden]

[QUOTE=DanielW4444;373475] Again, I never said it was easy, I said it was possible. Sometimes the hardest work pays off with the biggest reward.[/QUOTE] while that might be true would you then be willing to wait the four of five extra month for the game and to pay more for this feature? He would be doing alot more work so it would only be fair to pay a higher price for said work. Look at most games on the market 50$ is not uncommon. what do we pay, 35? i think we are getting off easy with that price ;)