CornellVerse Thoughts

[Bigpapa42]

For some reason, my current CornellVerse game has brought up a few thoughts. Not really questions, I guess, since I don't think there are actual answers, but I am curious what some people's thoughts are on them... 1. Who trained Tommy Cornell? The '97 C-verse update indicates that SWF scouts spotted him at an Indy show in England. Was he just a raw talent and Supreme started to turn him into a wrestling god? Was he training under someone over there? Self-taught? 2. Who booked the infamous Nemesis-Cornell brawl? It obviously wasn't Richard Eisen. Did the bookers not play some role in it? Or was it just Nemesis and Cornell, as they apparently took the brunt of the blame? 3. Would DaVE be DaVE without that match? Dave and Violence Extreme already existed when that match took place. But was hardcore already a prime focus? Or did that SWF match turn Vibert onto the possibility of there existing a fanbase for that? 4. Is Richard Eisen a great businessman who's business happens to be wrestling, or a wrestling man who is just that savvy? It seems like he's made some great innovations before anyone else was doing it - long-term contracts, PPV, etc. Do we know what Esien did before? What got him into the business? 5. Is Cornell's ownership of TCW something acknowledged or is he kept to seem like just another worker? 6. What loss hit DaVE the hardest? Talent raids by the bigger promotions, and some workers moving to Japan, seem to be a major reason that DaVE failed. What one worker that left before the closure would have meant the most?

[XxFutureLegend112xX]

1. I belive he was just a raw talent who learned and devolped on his own. 2. I belive Cornell & Nemesis decided themselves as the match devolped thus why one was fired the other depushed. 3. DAVE was already into hardcore 4. dont know 5. i'd say he makes it look as if he just another worker 6. imo workers leaving for japan especially Bryan Holmes

[Comradebot]

I believe Eisen got his start wrestling for his father back in the 70s. And as for DaVE... I have to think that the talent raids had a bigger effect. Bryan Holmes might be a fantastic worker, but he really didn't fit into the promotion anyways. SWF and TCW were the bigger threats to em.

[Guest The Aussie]

1. I'd say self-taught 2. I actually think that a member of the Booking team had an idea for it that was improved upon by Nemesis and Cornell. It would probably have been a higher up and that the two were fired for not going about the way that Eisen would have wanted. 3. Harcore was a prime focus already. 4. I'd say the first. 5. It would be likely that Cornell just looks like he is in the ear of the owner. 6. Talent raids. Only two notable guys split for Japan whereas a number of names walked .

[SadisticBlessings]

[QUOTE=Bigpapa42;463851]For some reason, my current CornellVerse game has brought up a few thoughts. Not really questions, I guess, since I don't think there are actual answers, but I am curious what some people's thoughts are on them... 1. Who trained Tommy Cornell? The '97 C-verse update indicates that SWF scouts spotted him at an Indy show in England. Was he just a raw talent and Supreme started to turn him into a wrestling god? Was he training under someone over there? Self-taught? 2. Who booked the infamous Nemesis-Cornell brawl? It obviously wasn't Richard Eisen. Did the bookers not play some role in it? Or was it just Nemesis and Cornell, as they apparently took the brunt of the blame? 3. Would DaVE be DaVE without that match? Dave and Violence Extreme already existed when that match took place. But was hardcore already a prime focus? Or did that SWF match turn Vibert onto the possibility of there existing a fanbase for that? 4. Is Richard Eisen a great businessman who's business happens to be wrestling, or a wrestling man who is just that savvy? It seems like he's made some great innovations before anyone else was doing it - long-term contracts, PPV, etc. Do we know what Esien did before? What got him into the business? 5. Is Cornell's ownership of TCW something acknowledged or is he kept to seem like just another worker? 6. What loss hit DaVE the hardest? Talent raids by the bigger promotions, and some workers moving to Japan, seem to be a major reason that DaVE failed. What one worker that left before the closure would have meant the most?[/QUOTE] 1. I'm inclined to believe that Cornell is mostly a self-taught wrestler - let's face it, the only two people who could have gotten him to the point he's at now in terms of skill are Dan Stone Jr. and Sean McFly (plus a ton of natural charisma), neither of whom have been noted to have any association with Cornell at all. My guess would be that he got trained, like most wrestlers, in only the very the basics and then set loose to develop his skills on his own. 2. I guess the big question here would be "who was head booker during this time period in SWF?" We know that Nemesis and Cornell were simply booked in this match to fill time, though, so it wasn't really the booker's fault regardless - THEY were almost definitely the ones who decided to go overboard with the blood and weapons, as the article makes it pretty clear that all the higher-ups in the company knew better than to piss off the network like that. 3. With a company name like "Danger and Violence Extreme" I'd be shocked - SHOCKED! - if hardcore wrestling weren't already on the menu in Vibert's promotion during this time. Logically, I have a feeling that Nemesis chose DaVE specifically because of their hardcore style - otherwise, he probably would've chosen a bigger company to jump to. 4. It seems very unlikely to me that Eisen ever actually stepped into the ring (barring the brawling skills he got in TEW2004, which were removed later) - thing is, he opened the SWF in the early '70s, when a real wrestler probably would've been focusing on their in-ring careers. Also, there's no record of Richard Eisen ever winning a title in the SWF, which seems unlikely if he'd been a real wrestler. Also, he'd probably have needed some money from other business ventures to get SWF to the levels it reached so quickly, since he was signing people to huge contracts pretty much as soon as the place opened. 5. Unlike everyone else here, I feel like it would be unbelievably difficult to hide Cornell's involvement in the ownership and running of TCW on screen in this area. The way I always imagine it, Cornell is acknowledged as a "primary shareholder" on the board of directors, and abuses this power to give himself and The Syndicate better odds of winning, but he's sometimes overpowered and out-voted by "the other board members" and forced to accept their terms. This way it also opens the door for a "commissioner" role, as someone the rest of the board of directors appoint to keep Cornell under control. 6. I think the one person who hurt DaVE the most with their loss was Eisaku Kunomasu - in his profile he's regarded as "the most valuable worker in DaVE" during his time there, always putting on the match of the night no matter who he fought, and that's far from a stretch of the imagination given how much better he was than most of their guys. Pablo Rodriguez would take runner-up. I'd also say losing Nemesis was a big hit, of course, but at that point he was old enough that retirement was getting inevitable anyway. Also, at least they got to keep Nemesis booking for them, so they didn't "lose" him completely. Still, the answer is Kunomasu - if he'd stuck around and been given a big push to the main event, I think the match quality alone would've drawn a big "pure wrestling" crowd's interest in addition to the hardcore fanbase they had already built up.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

Eisen would have been 18 or so when SWF was opened- that just screams "inherited wealth" to me.

[Candyman]

1.I would say Cornell just had a natural talent for wrestling, like most prodigies do. Maybe his father was a nobody who wrestled on the independent level but never higher, and that's how he Tommy got into the business. 2.I think the road agent in charge of the match was involved but it's impossible to say who this was. Chief Two Eagles? It would've been easy for whoever it was to say to Eisen "Hey, I didn't know they were going to take it THAT far!" and get off the hook. 3.I think DaVE already had hardcore influences, but that match is why DaVE won the East Coast wars. First, it got them Nemesis. Second, it exposed all the mainstream wrestling fans to hardcore wrestling, who in turned looked for a place to get that, and followed Nemesis to DaVE. Otherwise I would guess Preston Holt's RPW, with all their money, wins the East Coast war. 4.There are three things we know. Richard Eisen was only 17 when SWF opened (born in June 54, it opened in January 72). According to Jerry Eisen's bio, he is the only male member of his family not to step into the ring at some point. And according to the Cornellverse website, the end of the terrotirial days of wrestling in America started around 1978. My theory is somebody else, perhaps Richard's father, founded and owned the SWF, but in 77 or 78 he either inherited it from his old man or bought it from the original owner (ala Tommy Cornell) and either way retired as a wrestler to focus full time on running the promotion. Then he turned his attention to national dominance, and the rest is history. 5.I don't think it's acknowledged on air that Cornell owns TCW. It's something that everybody knows obviously, but I think it would be tough to keep things fair or realistic storyline wise if Cornell was the owner. 6.I think it was just a combination of so many losses in such a short period of time. Kunomasu, Holmes, and Lee going to Japan, Nemesis and others retiring, Pablo Rodriguez going to Mexico, plus they lost their PPV deal...if I had to pick one that was the worst, I'd actually say Kurt Laramee, since Vibert was grooming him as the future of the company.

[Remianen]

1. Cornell is largely self-taught, in my view. However, I completely disagree with SB in who could have taught Cornell. Who taught Alicia Strong? Is that worker inferior to every other worker on the planet or is SB discounting an entire area of wrestling talent? ;) Yoshimi could've taught Cornell. Eisaku Kunomasu could've taught Cornell. There's at least half a dozen workers (active and retired) who could have taught Cornell. Also keep in mind that a worker doesn't have to be YOUNGER than their student to be effective. 2. I think the basic structure of the match was laid out beforehand but the two workers largely 'called it in the ring'. That's the way the stories I've read seem to lean. An RA's influence ceases once the two workers are in the ring, after all. 3. DaVE would've still been DaVE. That match just gave them access to a worker whose notoriety fit their rebel image perfectly. 4. He inherited it (and I count buying it from his old man as inheriting it, ala Capital to Titan). 5. I think it's an open secret that Cornell owns TCW. It might be under the cover of a company Cornell controls that actually owns the promotion (usually done to keep the promotion & its assets from vengeful creditors like Jennifer could wind up becoming). 6. The loss of Eddie Peak along with Caulfield and Tyler would've been enough to sink DaVE.

[Eisen-verse]

[QUOTE]1. Who trained Tommy Cornell? The '97 C-verse update indicates that SWF scouts spotted him at an Indy show in England. Was he just a raw talent and Supreme started to turn him into a wrestling god? Was he training under someone over there? Self-taught?[/QUOTE] I would think realistically that Cornell would have been trained by someone, however, it doesn't have to be someone who is absolutely amazing. Sure, great teachers can produce great students but if a wrestler who is determined to be great (the "X" factor) is trained by a half-way decent worker then they will most likely take the information given to them by their "mentor" and then take it that step farther when they continue to learn within the ring during matches as well. It could have just been a guy who was very knowledgeable about how to carry a match (an old time Veteran in England) and from there he developed into the superstar he is today in a half training... half intuition way. [QUOTE]2. Who booked the infamous Nemesis-Cornell brawl? It obviously wasn't Richard Eisen. Did the bookers not play some role in it? Or was it just Nemesis and Cornell, as they apparently took the brunt of the blame?[/QUOTE] As everyone's said before... (and it's kind of been stated in the history of Cornellverse) it seems that there was a rough outline of what was going to happen however they let Nemesis & Cornell call their own match (due to the fact that both were considered up and coming superstars and could carry a match on their own)... But that's when things went crazy & they ended up allowing things to get a little out of hand. They both felt they were creating an epic match and were really excited about what it could mean for their careers.... However... were shocked when they got in the back and Eisen was bent out of shape. [QUOTE]3. Would DaVE be DaVE without that match? Dave and Violence Extreme already existed when that match took place. But was hardcore already a prime focus? Or did that SWF match turn Vibert onto the possibility of there existing a fanbase for that?[/QUOTE] This one is very up in the air with me. The Cornell vs. Nemesis match was so influential that it spawned a "Hardcore Era" in American Wrestling (see the East Coast Wars). While it's uncertain whether or not DAVE would have come into existence with or without the match... It can be said that DAVE certainly would not have been as popular if it wasn't for the match. When Nemesis left SWF he left with a great deal of momentum... He brought that with him to DAVE and became their "figure head". If the match never happened and Nemesis still went to DAVE it would have been huge news but not to the magnitude that it ended up being due to the famous blood bath between Cornell & Nemesis. Without the major push that DAVE got from a hot Nemesis coming into the promotion they probably would have faired like the other East Coast Hardcore Companies. [QUOTE]4. Is Richard Eisen a great businessman who's business happens to be wrestling, or a wrestling man who is just that savvy? It seems like he's made some great innovations before anyone else was doing it - long-term contracts, PPV, etc. Do we know what Esien did before? What got him into the business?[/QUOTE] As others said, I'm sure he learned a lot from watching his father. And just as Vince McMahon saw a rise to fame using sometimes ruthless and controversial decisions... I would think Eisen would follow the same path (as it says in his profile). He seems like a great business man after pushing SWF to the point that he has but he also seems like a knowledgeable wrestling man as the company has developed a lot of great superstars over it's span. [QUOTE]5. Is Cornell's ownership of TCW something acknowledged or is he kept to seem like just another worker?[/QUOTE] This was the reason for me why it was always so hard to get into TCW. I didn't like the idea of one of the wrestlers owning the company. However, I'm warming up to it. As for whether they would acknowledge the fact that he was the owner of the company... I think in todays form of wrestling it would be difficult not too. (As in the Cornellverse the web is obviously important too... Looking at the main page of your game and seeing stuff like "So and so is turning" before it happens). For TCW to ignore the fact that Cornell is the owner would only make people feel like they were being treated like they were "stupid". It may work in an SE company because storylines are god there... however... in a company that is trying to seem legit in many ways (while still holding that mainstream draw).. I think they would have to acknowledge him as the owner. That being said, I like the idea of the owner vs. the board of directors. Gives it a real "company" feel and makes for some great angles as you can have a commish (like stated before) and a "unknown" board of directors who can get involved in situations when the Owner is looking to be using his power inappropriately. Kind of like WCW Board of Directors vs. Eric Bischoff. [QUOTE]6. What loss hit DaVE the hardest? Talent raids by the bigger promotions, and some workers moving to Japan, seem to be a major reason that DaVE failed. What one worker that left before the closure would have meant the most? [/QUOTE] I think the style of wrestling they produced was one of the things that hit them the hardest. Their long time workers who were there real "company men"/Franchise Players (like WWE has had Austin, Taker, HBK... not really that they go to bat for the company but that they are the "faces of the company"... and not faces like the disposition.) have obviously felt the downside of working in a hardcore company (see Nemesis, Eric Tyler, etc.). Their bodies are beaten and broken and they could barely keep up towards the end of their careers. Also with their product being so violent there would be little room to move forward (as we saw in their demise). They couldn't move past "Cult" as their product wasn't mainstream enough to really warrant anything bigger and better... So, they were doomed to stay where they were and slowly decline into finally closing. I don't know if any of the workers left before DAVE closed (as I think all of their bios make it seem like they were looking for work once it closed), however, the biggest person they could loose in my mind would have been Eddie Peak. He was kind of their new "Company Man" and losing him would have really hurt the momentum of the company.

[nik6241]

My take on Cornell's ownership of the company: Yes, people know Tommy is the owner. I am sure the sale was/is public record, and, even if it wasn't, a little bit of searching could probably turn up his name as owner. So, yes, I am sure that the information is out there for those that want it. Now, the original question was, how does TCW handle that knowledge? My guess is that they just ignore it. Tommy doesn't acknowledge he is the owner of the company, no one makes any on-screen references to it. I am certain there is a lot of fans who watch the show and know Tommy is the actual owner, and I am certain that those fans are probably divided into two camps--one that likes Tommy as the owner and one that thinks he abuses his power--but there has never been any overt mention of TCW's ownership and, in the wrestling business, if it hasn't happened on TV, then it hasn't happened. Now, would this insult the viewers intelligence? Possibly, but I doubt that the average TCW fan cares too awful much about whom is actually in charge. My feeling is that a TCW fan enjoys the product because they enjoy good wrestling, and, so long as Tommy's ownership doesn't interfere with the in-ring product, I doubt even the fans who dislike him as owner would be too insulted. It probably wouldn't be too different than having demons or police officers wrestling for those same kind of fans. Besides, is it really that bad for one of the best--if not THE best--wrestlers in the world to be the company's figurehead and champion?

[lazorbeak]

[QUOTE=nik6241;464069]My take on Cornell's ownership of the company: Yes, people know Tommy is the owner. I am sure the sale was/is public record, and, even if it wasn't, a little bit of searching could probably turn up his name as owner. So, yes, I am sure that the information is out there for those that want it. Now, the original question was, how does TCW handle that knowledge? My guess is that they just ignore it. Tommy doesn't acknowledge he is the owner of the company, no one makes any on-screen references to it. I am certain there is a lot of fans who watch the show and know Tommy is the actual owner, and I am certain that those fans are probably divided into two camps--one that likes Tommy as the owner and one that thinks he abuses his power--but there has never been any overt mention of TCW's ownership and, in the wrestling business, if it hasn't happened on TV, then it hasn't happened. Now, would this insult the viewers intelligence? Possibly, but I doubt that the average TCW fan cares too awful much about whom is actually in charge. My feeling is that a TCW fan enjoys the product because they enjoy good wrestling, and, so long as Tommy's ownership doesn't interfere with the in-ring product, I doubt even the fans who dislike him as owner would be too insulted. It probably wouldn't be too different than having demons or police officers wrestling for those same kind of fans. Besides, is it really that bad for one of the best--if not THE best--wrestlers in the world to be the company's figurehead and champion?[/QUOTE] I think this is a pretty accurate assessment. I would liken it to the Triple H/Stephanie marriage. Most of the fans know about it, and anybody that looks at the guy's wikipedia page can find it, but for the sake of storylines, they just don't talk about it except through the occasional winking reference.

[SadisticBlessings]

[QUOTE=Remianen;464033]1. Cornell is largely self-taught, in my view. However, I completely disagree with SB in who could have taught Cornell. Who taught Alicia Strong? Is that worker inferior to every other worker on the planet or is SB discounting an entire area of wrestling talent? ;) Yoshimi could've taught Cornell. Eisaku Kunomasu could've taught Cornell. There's at least half a dozen workers (active and retired) who could have taught Cornell. Also keep in mind that a worker doesn't have to be YOUNGER than their student to be effective.[/QUOTE] Ah, c'mon Remi, you know I know better than to completely ignore the great workers in Japan in the CornellVerse. I'm one of the area's biggest fans. I took the time to design the 1975 version of it, fercryingoutloud! :p It's not like I was being serious about thinking Stone or McFly trained Tommy - the point I was trying to make was simply that even if someone DID train Cornell, it most likely wasn't the trainer who made him that great, it was Cornell's natural abilities and determination. Nobody comes fresh out of training with skills like those, it's something only gained through years of in-ring experience. I'm not sure what you were saying or where you were going with the whole "worker not having to be younger than their student to be effective" comment, though. I think it was mis-phrased. And as for the Alicia Strong comment... are you implying that you believe Sensational Ogiwara trained Tommy Cornell? ;)

[Franchise22]

what has always bothered me is JK Stallings is 27 in the data base, making him 17 or younger when he founded HGC........

[Midnightnick]

[quote=Franchise22;464101]what has always bothered me is JK Stallings is 27 in the data base, making him 17 or younger when he founded HGC........[/quote] Well. HGC opened in 1996. JK is 27 in 2008. He was 15-16 when he opened HGC, because he invented whatever invention he made, and was a teen kid opening his own promotion. d_w_w's HGC diary actually characterizes the teenage JK quite well.

[Hyde Hill]

[QUOTE]I think this is a pretty accurate assessment. I would liken it to the Triple H/Stephanie marriage. Most of the fans know about it, and anybody that looks at the guy's wikipedia page can find it, but for the sake of storylines, they just don't talk about it except through the occasional winking reference.[/QUOTE] I agree with that assesment too plus as it says in hsi bio he was the figurehead of a group of investors that bought the company making it probably a LTD. company. I see Tommy more as the CEO then the outright owner that Eisen is. Also he doesn´t play the maniacal owner role or the all attention on me role (that much) and as far as the attention goes its wel deserved. As far as his training goes wel he probably had at least a half decent mentor in England then learned more from evryone at SWF plus he had the innate talent. He wasn´t a protoge tough in any way I think as nothing of him going to Japan or Canada is mentioned or any relations with then time SWF workers.

[Franchise22]

[QUOTE=Midnightnick;464102]Well. HGC opened in 1996. JK is 27 in 2008. He was 15-16 when he opened HGC, because he invented whatever invention he made, and was a teen kid opening his own promotion. d_w_w's HGC diary actually characterizes the teenage JK quite well.[/QUOTE] is the HGC being opened when he was 15-16 canon? on website? thats crazy if so. i know the bio speaks about the invention, didnt realize it was meant to be when he was that young!!!

[Rob4590]

[QUOTE=SadisticBlessings;464099]Nobody comes fresh out of training with skills like those, it's something only gained through years of in-ring experience.[/QUOTE] Gino Montero!!!! ;)

[Greg2511]

[QUOTE=Rob4590;464301]Gino Montero!!!! ;)[/QUOTE] my thoughts exactly...i wouldnt be suprised if he is doomed with a low destiny stat, and his overness caps off at like 40, lol aaaaaaanyway.... As far as which loss hurt DaVE the most, I don't think we can really tell until the Cornellverse website is updated so we know the full story of their closure. Did some of those top stars jump ship? Or did they move after the close of business for DaVE? etc. Until then I think it would be hard to really tell. And I've noticed a lot of people are pigeonholing them into "that hardcore promotion". And although that was a big part of their product, and of them finding their niche and their fame I don't think by any means it was their entirety. Art Reed, Acid, Jack Giedroyc, Joey Minnesota and Bryan Holmes all say hello. The New Wave and Adrenaline Rush say hello. etc. I think towards the end of DaVE it was a little less hardcore than in the 90's

[Hyde Hill]

[QUOTE]Gino Montero!!!! [/QUOTE] Who was of course trained by his father the legend as is the same with the Gauge brothers and Jay Chord. Cornell had no such luck.

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=Hyde Hill;464317]Who was of course trained by his father the legend as is the same with the Gauge brothers and Jay Chord. Cornell had no such luck.[/QUOTE] ...Or he did, and we just don't know who.