What style is wrestler ____?

[markieje]

I've never seen quite this thread on here, and I was wondering about a few wrestlers, and I'm sure some of you are, too. So I figured I'd start out by asking your opinions on a few that I'm not sure about, and I won't asking leading questions, I'll just toss out the names: Chris Hero, Jamie Noble, Teddy Hart, and Jack Evans.

[shamelessposer]

Chris Hero,

 

Regular Wrestler.

 

Jamie Noble,

 

Regular Wrestler.

 

Teddy Hart,

 

Spot Monkey.

 

Jack Evans.

 

Spot Monkey... or maybe Cruiserweight.

[markieje]

Regular Wrestler.

 

 

 

Regular Wrestler.

 

 

 

Spot Monkey.

 

 

 

Spot Monkey... or maybe Cruiserweight.

 

Those sound pretty reasonable. How about James Maritato (Little Guido)? I know he has a shootfighting background, but I'm not sure MMA crossover is right for him.

 

Does anyone have opinions on the distinctions between cruiserweights and super jrs.? Who in the US would you consider a Super Jr.?

[Hyde Hill]

I'd consider Shelly a super junior kinda. Super Juniors have more Technical skills then pure cruiserweights plus higher intensity. And for mod reasons be carefull with spot monkey as that is the worst possible disposition Evans and Hart would be cruiserweights imho as their psychology has improved.

[markieje]

I'd consider Shelly a super junior kinda. Super Juniors have more Technical skills then pure cruiserweights plus higher intensity. And for mod reasons be carefull with spot monkey as that is the worst possible disposition Evans and Hart would be cruiserweights imho as their psychology has improved.

 

Whatever style Teddy Hart is, he has a lot of bad relationships, and a pretty bad personality.

 

Is Spot Monkey really the worst? Is it even worse than Psychopath?

 

In every mod I've ever seen, Alex Shelley is a Technician. I wouldn't think of cruiser for him.

 

I'd be interested in, a future edition of TEW, in seeing something like a primary/secondary style setup.

[shamelessposer]

Those sound pretty reasonable. How about James Maritato (Little Guido)? I know he has a shootfighting background, but I'm not sure MMA crossover is right for him.

 

Technician, probably.

[Derek B]

I'd put Alex Shelley as a super junior, though I'm basing that on his TNA work more than anything else. Any time I've seen him he's been a mix of high flyer and technical wrestler, which is pretty much a textbook super junior in my opinion.

 

Little Guido would probably be a technician, though I'd listen to arguments on him being a regular wrestler simply based on the way he wrestled in the WWE.

 

MMA Crossover should be reserved for actual MMA fighters who cross into wrestling and use a largely MMA style in their matches. They are rare... and they shouldn't be confused with wrestlers who have some MMA training, as there aren't actually many who use an MMA style to wrestle, they just throw in the odd move from a martial art or two.

 

Likewise, the MMA stat shouldn't be applied to many people at all... pretty much the same reasons as above. Being able to throw a martial arts kick or lock in a gogoplata isn't the same as competing in an MMA style.

[markieje]

Would you consider Chris Sabin a super, too?

[Derek B]

I think Sabin would probably be a cruiserweight actually... he's not got the same technical leaning that Shelley does and his primary offense is fast paced and high flying. He's probably not far from being a super junior though, I could see the case for him being classed as one.

[praguepride]

Whatever style Teddy Hart is, he has a lot of bad relationships, and a pretty bad personality.

 

Wrestling style != personality. Personality and wrestling style are independent attributes with no links.

 

You can be an Entertainer and a comple d*** (see Big Smack Scott) or a pscyhopath and be really nice guy (Larry Wood)

[hrdcoresidebrns]

The best example of a super junior in America would probably be Bryan Danielson. I agree with the assessment of Shelley being a technician, and I'd say Sabin is the prototypical American-style cruiserweight.

[BurningHamster]

Why is everyone so eager to try to make American workers out to be Super Juniors when there are often more apt styles for them?

 

Super juniors are a little hard to define, but I've always seen the workers described that way as mixing flying, technical and striking skills in pretty equal amounts. Maybe someone like Super Dragon or Low Ki would be closer to the Super Junior style than Alex Shelly or Bryan Danielson who to me both seem a little closer to being technicians?

 

I'm not sure, just throwing out an opinion.

 

Oh and Jack Evans is the spottiest spot monkey ever. If a worker is in a tag match and all three other workers have to somehow work together in an unrealistic way in order for Evans to get one of his flippy spots in .... then that pretty much means he's a spotmonkey.

[Stennick]

Yeah Evans is the biggest spot monkey I've seen out of everyone listed. Seriously the guy does the most random things at the most random times.

[alden]

The best example of a super junior in America would probably be Bryan Danielson. I agree with the assessment of Shelley being a technician, and I'd say Sabin is the prototypical American-style cruiserweight.

 

wow, never thought i would hear danielson be any thing other then a tehchinal wrestler. He might have the size of a super junior but i always though technical.

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah he is definitly a technician and on the super junior thing he asked for a US example. Juniors in the C verse are not adapt at striking though they are always a mix of Flying and Technical sometimes one is more dominant then the other (,mostly flying,) sometimes more equel.

 

It really depends if you want to be closer to RL or the C verse as well plus personal opinion comes to play.

 

Given Shelly's technical skills combined with his high flying with his technical skills just a bit above the flying I would put him closer to Super Junior then Technician but thats my opinion good arguments can be made for both and as always for regular wrestler.

[markieje]

Why is everyone so eager to try to make American workers out to be Super Juniors when there are often more apt styles for them?

 

Super juniors are a little hard to define, but I've always seen the workers described that way as mixing flying, technical and striking skills in pretty equal amounts. Maybe someone like Super Dragon or Low Ki would be closer to the Super Junior style than Alex Shelly or Bryan Danielson who to me both seem a little closer to being technicians?

 

I'm not sure, just throwing out an opinion.

 

Oh and Jack Evans is the spottiest spot monkey ever. If a worker is in a tag match and all three other workers have to somehow work together in an unrealistic way in order for Evans to get one of his flippy spots in .... then that pretty much means he's a spotmonkey.

 

Bryan Danielson is a technician. His style is based on mat work and holds. He has a flying dropkick and a swandive headbutt and some cool strikes. His work is a lot more like William Regal than Jushin Lyger.

 

I've usually seen Ki as a Puro.

[BurningHamster]

I've usually seen Ki as a Puro.

 

I think Ki probably sees himself as Puro too but then again he also sees himself as being bigger than 5'7" 170lbs and way more talented than he actually is. I don't have a problem with Ki being considered puroresu style, but I think a combination of his size and the fact he does have some more US indy lightweight influences on his style makes him seem a shade more super junior to me. I just have a hard time putting him in the same style as Kenta Kobashi or Kensuke Sasaki.

[markieje]

I think Ki probably sees himself as Puro too but then again he also sees himself as being bigger than 5'7" 170lbs and way more talented than he actually is. I don't have a problem with Ki being considered puroresu style, but I think a combination of his size and the fact he does have some more US indy lightweight influences on his style makes him seem a shade more super junior to me. I just have a hard time putting him in the same style as Kenta Kobashi or Kensuke Sasaki.

 

Again, size is a different attribute from style, just as someone pointed earlier that psychology is not style. Yes Kobashi and Sasaki are bigger. And Ki is a little out there. But that's what the personality settings are for. There's nothing about having a puro setting that prohibits a wrestler from being like Ki, or from having other stats higher than his puro stat. Misawa is a puro but early in his career, his aerial skills may have been his strongest.

 

I'm not trying to dig up more wrestlers with different styles than who really should have them in the game. If there really aren't Super Jrs in the states, the states, then there aren't. I just wanted opinions on who, if anyone, you thought, is a super jr.

 

As to the balance of skills of a super junior, I suppose the traditional mix is that they have more technical skills than cruiserweights. But in general, Japanese workers have better technical skills. Of course, there are cruiserweights with great technical skills. I think NOAH's jr. heavyweight division may have changed this somewhat. (AJPW never really had a jr. heavyweight division.) They have some super jrs, but they tend to have more puro skill or just be even more balanced on aerial, tech, and puro.

 

I find that comparisons to wrestlers that exemplify styles help me figure out style. Is someone a technician - well, how similar is his work to Kurt Angle, Bryan Danielson, Jack Brisco, Dory Funk, Jr.? Super Jr. - Lyger? Just two examples.

 

Necro Butcher: Psychopath or Brawler? I'm wondering if Brawler if the better style, especially with all the work he does now in ROH. When someone mentioned nice psychopaths, I thought of him. He's actually a very nice, mellow guy.

 

I think Ultimo Dragon is a super jr, but he does have a lot of a lucha influence. Super or luchador?

 

In the mod I'm playing now, Chris Jericho was a super jr, which is definitely wrong. I think he considered himself more of a technician in the Calgary tradition, and at this point in his career, I'd just consider him a regular wrestler.

[Derek B]

I must admit I've not been able to watch ROH for a while now... but unless Necro has changed his style massively, he's pretty much a psychopath. Usually with his hardcore rating set too high... taking sick bumps isn't what the hardcore stat is for.. it's meant to basically be how good the hardcore matches are. Butcher should be fairly high up, but he doesn't deserve an A*. I wouldn't put him higher than a B... and generally would borrow from Larry Wood's top row of stats for him.

 

Ultimo Dragon is another I've not seen for a while, but would generally class as a super junior. But he is a tough one to set, I'd happily set him to luchador... but probably only if his main active area at that time was Mexico. If he's mostly working outside Mexico then I'd go with super junior.

 

And Jericho... pretty much since he debuted in the WWE and probably even before that he would be either a regular wrestler or an entertainer. Before that I'd have no arguments with his being potentially being listed as a super junior... though he's always had such a strong element of flashiness and crowd interaction that I'd struggle to accept him as a technician. Just doesn't seem to fit with the way he's worked., even if he could do it if he wanted.

[BurningHamster]

Again, size is a different attribute from style, just as someone pointed earlier that psychology is not style. Yes Kobashi and Sasaki are bigger. And Ki is a little out there. But that's what the personality settings are for. There's nothing about having a puro setting that prohibits a wrestler from being like Ki, or from having other stats higher than his puro stat. Misawa is a puro but early in his career, his aerial skills may have been his strongest.

 

I'm not trying to dig up more wrestlers with different styles than who really should have them in the game. If there really aren't Super Jrs in the states, the states, then there aren't. I just wanted opinions on who, if anyone, you thought, is a super jr.

 

As to the balance of skills of a super junior, I suppose the traditional mix is that they have more technical skills than cruiserweights. But in general, Japanese workers have better technical skills. Of course, there are cruiserweights with great technical skills. I think NOAH's jr. heavyweight division may have changed this somewhat. (AJPW never really had a jr. heavyweight division.) They have some super jrs, but they tend to have more puro skill or just be even more balanced on aerial, tech, and puro.

 

I find that comparisons to wrestlers that exemplify styles help me figure out style. Is someone a technician - well, how similar is his work to Kurt Angle, Bryan Danielson, Jack Brisco, Dory Funk, Jr.? Super Jr. - Lyger? Just two examples.

 

Necro Butcher: Psychopath or Brawler? I'm wondering if Brawler if the better style, especially with all the work he does now in ROH. When someone mentioned nice psychopaths, I thought of him. He's actually a very nice, mellow guy.

 

I think Ultimo Dragon is a super jr, but he does have a lot of a lucha influence. Super or luchador?

 

In the mod I'm playing now, Chris Jericho was a super jr, which is definitely wrong. I think he considered himself more of a technician in the Calgary tradition, and at this point in his career, I'd just consider him a regular wrestler.

 

You make some good points. It's not so much Low Ki's size or personality that I think seperates him from Puro workers (although his lack of size and power kind of limits him from doing some of the more puro head drop and insanely hard lariat style wrestling that I really associate with puroresu).

 

Someone like Ultimo I think could be classed as either Super Junior or Luchador, probably his striking skills make him lean a little more towards Super Junior but to me it's a pretty close call as he wrestled lucha style in Mexico and Super Junior in the rest of the world. As for Necro I tend to agree, I think he may have been more of a psychopath in his deathmatch days but has kind of evolved into more of a brawler. Chris Jericho to me is really more of an entertainer who used to be a technician or regular wrestler early in his career before his entertainment skills really became apparent.

 

It's hard to find the right fit and for lots of workers as they could easily fit into different classes. I tend to try to be a bit conservative with some of the wrestling styles and not push too many non-Japanese workers into Super Junior or Puroresu or too many non-Mexican workers into luchador unless their style gives me no choice.

[markieje]

All of these points are why I'm writing in suggestions that a future version of TEW should allow a wrestler to have second style.

 

So more wrestlers:

 

Christian York: Cruiser or Spot Monkey?

 

Christopher Daniels: I think he might actually be worth considering as a super jr., more than anyone else I can think of in the states. But I'm not sure.

 

Austin Aries: Is regular wrestler the best fit for him? Or is he more of a cruiser? His tech skills in the mod I'm using are set at A. He's a great talent, but I don't know if he's that good in tech.

 

Finlay: Regular wrestler or brawler?

 

Tajiri?

 

Zach Gowen?

[Vladamire Dracos]

I think people get hung up too much on the style names (especially the Japanese ones). The styles really just represent what areas a wrestler is good at and, given no unusual changes to his booking that has him facing opponents very different from what his skills indicate he should , the areas where he is likely to continue to improve. If I had someone who's peak skills are High Flying, Technical Wrestling, and Intensity, I'd put him as a Super Jr. regardless of where he's from. Chris Jericho, back when he was teaming with Lance Storm and wrestling SMW and ECW, would have been a Super Junior in my book. He eventually transformed into a more rounded Regular Wrestler, IMO, during his days in WCW.

[Derek B]

Wrestler styles do have an influence on pushes within a promotion and hiring too, as even the AI bookers have their own owner goals to deal with. So if someone is labelled as a psychopath or MMA Crossover, they are most likely to struggle to find employment as those styles seem to be most frowned upon by owners in general. Similarly, a worker who works a style not ideally suited to the product (technician in a entertainment fed, for example) would also receive less of a push from the AI....

 

So getting them right can be important, even if I'm not sure about having multiple options to choose from at once. Stats are still the primary thing and will themselves decide some potential changes in the game... but getting things right from the start is always best. Everything should be "right".

[D-Lyrium]

Zach Gowen's a Spot Monkey, fo' sho'. Hell, his damn gimmick was pretty much 'spot monkey' in the WWE. "Damnit, why do I have to do all this 'wrestling' stuff... HEY LOOK ONE-LEGGED MAN DOING A SHOOTING STAR PRESS! lol they love it".

 

Tajiri, IMO, is a cruiserweight who happens to have decent stiffness and brawling skills.

[Vladamire Dracos]

Wrestler styles do have an influence on pushes within a promotion and hiring too, as even the AI bookers have their own owner goals to deal with. So if someone is labelled as a psychopath or MMA Crossover, they are most likely to struggle to find employment as those styles seem to be most frowned upon by owners in general. Similarly, a worker who works a style not ideally suited to the product (technician in a entertainment fed, for example) would also receive less of a push from the AI....

 

So getting them right can be important, even if I'm not sure about having multiple options to choose from at once. Stats are still the primary thing and will themselves decide some potential changes in the game... but getting things right from the start is always best. Everything should be "right".

 

True enough, but few wrestlers, even in real life, have the skills to be considered as an MMA Crossover, and Psychopaths do well in promotions with high levels of Hardcore, like IWA-MS or CZW. I'm not saying looking at a worker and his history isn't important, just that you shouldn't be afraid to apply styles like Super Junior or Luchador or Puroesu just because the guy isn't a national of the country that spawned the style or is a non-typical size for that style if his skill set otherwise fits.

 

As for some of the wrestlers listed by markieje:

 

Christopher Daniels could work as either a Super Junior or Cruiserweight, I lean toward Super Junior myself.

 

Finlay I'd go with Regular Wrestler today. Back when he was fresh in WCW I would've listed him as a Brawler (IIRC, the preset for European), but he's rounded out his game during his time in the States.

 

While I agree with D-Lyrium about Zach Gowen, Spot Monkey for sure, I disagree with him about Tajiri. I'd list Tajiri as a Brawler with an unusually high Flashiness myself. He doesn't really employ much of an Aerial offense and while he has under rated technical skills, I don't really feel he has the stats to be a Cruiserweight. His Brawling skills simply eclipse his other skills.