TNA and WWE's EPIC Faliures from Paul Heyman's Blog

[Genadi]

That's WWE bringing their product to other frontiers, not WWE bringing those frontiers into their product. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

 

How many frontiers are there left though? And on a technical note, had they gone with that idea the longterm plan was bring some guys in from those regions over time. Other then puro and lucha though where else is there to go?

 

Hopefully the Indians are devleloping a style as we speak and soon we will have Bollyresu "Sonjay Dutt has changed wrestling styles"

[Self]

Where's the Capoeira guy in pro wrestling? Don't be racist and say Kofi. Where's the Muay Thai fighter? A couple of years ago when Ong Bak showed up, they could have easily pushed a character off that, a hybrid of Muay Thai knees with typical wrasslin'.

 

If I was trying to get into wrestling, sure I'd learn the WWE style, BUT I'd also explore other styles of fighting. I'd take classes MMA, jui jitsu, muay thai, capoeira etc. I'd explore every fighting style around to try to create something unique and interesting, depending on what works for me.

 

If I see another guy enter WWE as part of the "new talent initiative" with only one unique move, like a slide-on-my-knees-punch-to-the-gut... Man, I don't know what I'd do... I won't freak out, but there'll be some intense eye-rolling, let me tell you.

[Genadi]

Where's the Capoeira guy in pro wrestling? Don't be racist and say Kofi. Where's the Muay Thai fighter? A couple of years ago when Ong Bak showed up, they could have easily pushed a character off that, a hybrid of Muay Thai knees with typical wrasslin'.

 

It's not a coincidence WWE have moved slowly away from MMA stuff as MMA rises in popularity. May seem like bad booking in the short term but it's good business in the long term, makes perfect sense.

 

Not sure how Capoeira would translate in a worked match, other then the few moves I've seen on SvR lol. Would be interesting that's for sure but I have a feeling it would come off looking an awful lot like lucha.

 

If I see another guy enter WWE as part of the "new talent initiative" with only one unique move, like a slide-on-my-knees-punch-to-the-gut... Man, I don't know what I'd do... I won't freak out, but there'll be some intense eye-rolling, let me tell you.

 

That aspect of WWE hasn't changed in 25 years, I don't suspect it will anytime soon.

[Remianen]

Heyman was a fantastic booker and in theory could be the best if he was paired with a financial genius. The problem is that his personality is that of an alpha which means he won't play well with people above him for long. This wouldn't be too big of a problem if didn't like to do everything, including the finances.

 

Now as far as his article is concerned it was a glorified ad for Dragon Gate USA. It isn't a bad thing as any press for indies is good, but let's call a spade a spade. To bash WWE and TNA for not scouting new talent like colleges or MLB baseball teams is insane. There are three US promotions that are big enough to sign "written" contracts. That's it. And while you can make the arguement that they are competing UFC too, but that's just one more company.

 

As for pushing new stars, well I guess TNA has that problem. However, if they push the World Elite, Morgan, Hernandez as well as keep AJ and Joe in the upper card they should be ok. Of course they are TNA so I'm not holding my breath.

 

WWE on the other hand is perfectly fine. Their top two fueds are Orton/Cena/Triple H and Punk/Hardy. Four of the five are around the age of 30. Plus guys like Ziggler, Swagger, Bourne, Kingston, Morrison, The Miz, DiBiase, etc that could be on their rosters for years to come in some manor. WWE's system for pushing new talent isn't broken so why try to fix it?

 

First, if you're a business person (especially a CEO type) and not an alpha, you're going to fail. Period, end of story. WWE isn't a democracy, Vince calls all the shots. The best companies are, at best, benevolent dictatorships. And that's the key right there. There's a difference between being an alpha and being a control freak. You can accept and acknowledge your weaknesses without making your company suffer for them, and still be an alpha.

 

Second, if you think Evan Bourne is going to main event a WWE event ever, you must know the "due date" on Vince McMahon (there's also a handful of bridges I have for sale here, if you're interested). Remember Rey Mysterio's title reign? Why'd he get the big gold belt? Could it be because Vince was trying to reach out and attract a particular ethnic demographic? Matt Sydal doesn't have that advantage. The same can be said for Kofi. Those two main eventing in that promotion? I'll believe it when I see it.

 

If they guy had actually made money and were able to pay his workers, perhaps they'd have stayed.

 

You cannot possibly be that naive. Even if Heyman could pay them what he was paying them, he couldn't in good conscience tell these people to turn down offers that were literally an order of magnitude more than he could ever hope to pay in his wildest dreams. It's like telling someone to stick with their $75,000 annual non-guaranteed salary and turn down the 2-year, $1.5 million guaranteed offer (remember, this is/was WCW we're talking about).

 

The guy is the greatest promoter I've ever seen though, second to none.

 

Yeah, much better than that Don King guy who's been doing it for 40+ years.

 

In WWE's case they only recently had plans to go Worldwide and open sister companies in Mexico, Japan and even Australia. If that's not a new frontier what is?

 

Yeah, what happened to those plans? They got scrapped, that's what. If I say I'm opening a factory in China and never do it or get spooked by the cost, should I still get credit for opening a factory in China?

 

And WWE can't do what Paul did because of their schedule. You can't introduce stiffer or more high impact or aerial elements to your product when your workers are working 300+ days a year (and thus, their bodies aren't allowed to heal and recover like they should be). The best they could do is integrate more mat based wrestling but their audience doesn't like that (see: Regal v. Finlay at the Great American Bash a few years back). That's one (and possibly the only) advantage TNA has. They can be more high impact and edgy because their workers have more time to recover.

[Genadi]

Yeah, much better than that Don King guy who's been doing it for 40+ years.

 

I take it you're being sarcastic. Other then 40+ years you didn't indicate how he's a better promoter then Vince in anyway? Because he's not, King could only dream of an anual payday like Wrestlemania and the cash cow the WWE PPV's churn out for Vince before he even gets out of bed. Don't get me started on the merch etc. There are a few guys I think could be argued have been better promoters then Vince of recent time, Don King isn't one of them.

 

Yeah, what happened to those plans? They got scrapped, that's what. If I say I'm opening a factory in China and never do it or get spooked by the cost, should I still get credit for opening a factory in China?

 

If you were a billion dollar company that spent more then a year researching a venture turning it down because you realised it wouldn't be feasible, you'd get credit for trying new frontiers. Who mentioned factories in China

[Self]

Mildly off-topic, but not really. Why don't babyfaces get squash matches? Wouldn't guys like Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tatsu get over better by destroying guys like "Jim Johnson" or "Clive Butch" or "Steve Bazinko" and beating them with their finishing move, rather than going toe-to-toe with Paul Burchill and Zack Ryder (woo woo woo!). I hate this WWE mentallity of feuding your way up the card. It works sometimes, sure. Seeing a young kid come in, get his ass beat, and watching him slowly get better is great... The Hardyz for example, but it's only great in small doses, and even though Jeff's main eventing, I kinda got bored of him 4 years ago.

 

I want to see Low Ki come in and kick people's faces off (in a safe, leg-slapping way) and not be considered a bad guy for doing it. I think audiences get a thrill out of seeing squashes, so why limit it to Heels? Let Tyler Reks fight 3 jobbers at once and just destroy them, SoCal style.

[The Final Countdown]

If I was trying to get into wrestling, sure I'd learn the WWE style, BUT I'd also explore other styles of fighting. I'd take classes MMA, jui jitsu, muay thai, capoeira etc. I'd explore every fighting style around to try to create something unique and interesting, depending on what works for me.

Bryan Danielson seems to be taking that approach. He's been working out at Randy Couture's gym to incorporate an MMA influence into his matches, and I remember reading that he was considering taking a sabbatical from wrestling to go overseas and study muay thai.

 

I want to see Low Ki come in and kick people's faces off (in a safe, leg-slapping way) and not be considered a bad guy for doing it. I think audiences get a thrill out of seeing squashes, so why limit it to Heels? Let Tyler Reks fight 3 jobbers at once and just destroy them, SoCal style.

Totally agree. If they threw Low K...err, "Kaval" onto ECW and just let him run through a sequence of jobbers with a kick-heavy offense, I would start watching the show.

[lazorbeak]

Where's the Capoeira guy in pro wrestling? Don't be racist and say Kofi. Where's the Muay Thai fighter? A couple of years ago when Ong Bak showed up, they could have easily pushed a character off that, a hybrid of Muay Thai knees with typical wrasslin'.

 

If I was trying to get into wrestling, sure I'd learn the WWE style, BUT I'd also explore other styles of fighting. I'd take classes MMA, jui jitsu, muay thai, capoeira etc. I'd explore every fighting style around to try to create something unique and interesting, depending on what works for me.

 

If I see another guy enter WWE as part of the "new talent initiative" with only one unique move, like a slide-on-my-knees-punch-to-the-gut... Man, I don't know what I'd do... I won't freak out, but there'll be some intense eye-rolling, let me tell you.

 

This is mildly off-topic but it's still a great point. We've got Kofi, Kozlov, Khali, the Colons, and a bunch of Canadians. Even if you have to learn to work the basic WWE style it's those differences in style that makes a guy like Kofi a draw. Would a promotion full of Kofi's work? Maybe not, but the thunder claps, agility and kicking isn't something a lot of guys are doing. I don't think it's a main event gimmick but it doesn't have to be: Essa Rios never main evented but his crazy-air moonsault and lucha style was somebody's favorite reason to watch B-shows. I'd love to see Low-Ki play up his Filipino heritage and just waste people. I'd similarly love to see more international characters on WWE Television.

[Hive]

Remember Rey Mysterio's title reign? Why'd he get the big gold belt? Could it be because Vince was trying to reach out and attract a particular ethnic demographic?

 

I always thought that Rey got the belt because of his close friendship with Eddie Guerrero.

 

You cannot possibly be that naive. Even if Heyman could pay them what he was paying them, he couldn't in good conscience tell these people to turn down offers that were literally an order of magnitude more than he could ever hope to pay in his wildest dreams. It's like telling someone to stick with their $75,000 annual non-guaranteed salary and turn down the 2-year, $1.5 million guaranteed offer (remember, this is/was WCW we're talking about).

 

I'm sure that a few of them would have stayed with ECW due to loyalty, but that's really not the point: Heyman didn't make enough money to keep the workers (he didn't make any at all in the end). The general concencus is that he was a kickass promotor with a kickass product and a kickass pool of talented workers. So why didn't he make money? I can't see how it can be an excuse in his favour that his promotion was no match for the big ones. Why wasn't it? He had like 7 years or so to get there.

[Hive]

Mildly off-topic, but not really. Why don't babyfaces get squash matches? Wouldn't guys like Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tatsu get over better by destroying guys like "Jim Johnson" or "Clive Butch" or "Steve Bazinko" and beating them with their finishing move, rather than going toe-to-toe with Paul Burchill and Zack Ryder (woo woo woo!). I hate this WWE mentallity of feuding your way up the card. It works sometimes, sure. Seeing a young kid come in, get his ass beat, and watching him slowly get better is great... The Hardyz for example, but it's only great in small doses, and even though Jeff's main eventing, I kinda got bored of him 4 years ago.

 

I think it's because the fans of today generally don't want to see no-name wrestlers they don't know get squashed. They want to see the people they know in competitive matches. I think the monday night wars did this, where people got used to always getting PPV-ish matches on tv week after week.

[Self]

I think it's because the fans of today generally don't want to see no-name wrestlers they don't know get squashed. They want to see the people they know in competitive matches. I think the monday night wars did this, where people got used to always getting PPV-ish matches on tv week after week.

 

ECW typically has at least one no-name jobber getting his corn creamed per episode. Ezekial. Koslov. Sheamus. The Heels are getting attention. Now, I'm not totally clueless as to why Babyfaces don't get the same treatment. Kicking some local guy's ass to within an inch of his life does seem a tad cruel, despite the fact that wrestling is supposed to be a professional sport, and folks love it in MMA when one guy destroys another in a one-sided battle.

 

I know fans aren't into it, but Vince can retrain the audience to accept it. You've just got to make the matches fun. Competitive is good, sure, but so is chicken. Do you want that for every meal? I'm not a huge supporter of the old fashioned squash match format, but I am a fan of decisive wins and sustained pushes, and they have 6 hours of TV a week! Mix it up a bit.

 

Variety. It's the spice of life.

[Hive]

ECW typically has at least one no-name jobber getting his corn creamed per episode.

 

True, didn't think of that. Still, ECW is sort of a B show - they need to bring it to RAW and Smackdown.

[BurningHamster]

You've just got to make the matches fun. Competitive is good, sure, but so is chicken. Do you want that for every meal? I'm not a huge supporter of the old fashioned squash match format, but I am a fan of decisive wins and sustained pushes, and they have 6 hours of TV a week! Mix it up a bit.

 

I agree but then I absolutely LOVE the old school squash match format. I've been watching old WWF lately and the squash matches are in general of a higher standard than the average TV match they put on now. A face can squash a guy without looking evil if he just fights fair but puts guys away with a cool finishing move. It's a good way to get a move over as lethal too if there are a few jobbers who got squashed by it. Think about Goldberg, he was over as a face and he did nothing but squash matches for god knows how long and while I never liked him he was super over.

[Stennick]

First, if you're a business person (especially a CEO type) and not an alpha, you're going to fail. Period, end of story. WWE isn't a democracy, Vince calls all the shots. The best companies are, at best, benevolent dictatorships. And that's the key right there. There's a difference between being an alpha and being a control freak. You can accept and acknowledge your weaknesses without making your company suffer for them, and still be an alpha.

 

No arguing there. I agree that Dana White, Vince McMahon, even Bischoff when he was untouchable IE making a 100 mil a year for WCW or whatever it was. Or any other company that has one guy calling the shots the end all be all those are generally the best ran companies.

 

Second, if you think Evan Bourne is going to main event a WWE event ever, you must know the "due date" on Vince McMahon (there's also a handful of bridges I have for sale here, if you're interested). Remember Rey Mysterio's title reign? Why'd he get the big gold belt? Could it be because Vince was trying to reach out and attract a particular ethnic demographic? Matt Sydal doesn't have that advantage. The same can be said for Kofi. Those two main eventing in that promotion? I'll believe it when I see it.

 

I didn't get on the internet until really around 99 or 2000. Well I did but it was under my parents guidance and I certainly never went anywhere with the inner workings of pro wrestling being discussed. However I wonder if people said this about Bret Hart (well he's not 6'9 300 pounds so he'll never get the title) Or about Shawn where they said "yeah but he doesn't have the history with the company or the history in this business Bret has" or later on when Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero who were not only undersized but also "WCW" guys. Or maybe when Chris Jericho beat both Austin and The Rock in the same night. Or how about when Rey Jr. won the title at Wrestlemania, or when Micky Foley who was never expected to be a champion his first year in the then WWF. I could go over maybe 15 instances of guys that didn't have the size, look, or style that Vince generally "goes for" and yet still became not only main eventers but in some cases multi time champions. To say Kofi and Evan Bourne will never main event a show is just kinda silly to say. Kofi's been around what two years? He's already got a tag title reign and an IC title reign.

 

Also I'd like to remind you that CM Punk BARELY got onto the main roster after a bad showing against Val Venis shortly after he got signed. Then when he did make it up to the show you had guys like HHH who were said to not be fond of him. Vince himself I think I heard was kind of down on the guy. Yet he's still a TWO time champ. He's undersized, he's not got a good "look" his style is anything but WWE generic. Yet he's still became a two time world champion. Is he main eventing Wrestlemania? Not yet but he's done everthing but that at this point. So really your theory on guys like Bourne and Kofi is flawed to say the least.

 

you cannot possibly be that naive. Even if Heyman could pay them what he was paying them, he couldn't in good conscience tell these people to turn down offers that were literally an order of magnitude more than he could ever hope to pay in his wildest dreams. It's like telling someone to stick with their $75,000 annual non-guaranteed salary and turn down the 2-year, $1.5 million guaranteed offer (remember, this is/was WCW we're talking about).

 

Granted a lot of guys would have left but lets face it that was hardly a problem with Paul. He made Mike Awesome from nothing, Sandman, Steve Corino, Justin Credible, Rhyno, Rob Van Dam, Tommy Dreamer he constantly had guys that turned down big time offers. This on top of all the guys that were constantly purged. Raven, Taz, Dudlyez. Someone said it best Heyman could give anyone a character. Even WCW and WWF had their limits on who they would snatch up and it generally took guys like Taz and the Dudleyz YEARS to finally break down and accept an ofer from the big two. So really thats not much of an excuse for him. Its not like every week he had new guys out there. He had the biggest non WCW/WWF name in the business with Rob Van Dam. He had loyalty from the loved Tommy Dreamer. He had the history of ECW with Raven. He had even admitted to Vince HELPING him keep ECW alive. So really the guy had created tons of characters and I have no doubt in his ability to find new characters to replace the old ones. Guys like New Jack weren't going anywere and they were over.

 

The problem is like it was said before guys like New Jack, Steve Corino, Justin Credible, Tommy Dreamer they were over with a certain crowd and it wasn't the mainstream crowd. The American Dragon can headline an ROH show around the country and most likely sell out whatever venue their running. Truth is thats going to bring in what a THOUSAND people tops. Not really because of the size of the company but because there is only a small group of people that want to see no nonsense pure wrestling, only a small group of people want to see hardcore balcony dives, or whatever else. Heyman had great characters but at the end of the day there is no way his product as it stood was going any farther up the ladder.

 

Hell ECW on TNN was constantly being forced to be toned down and instead of doing what he was asked he'd BITCH about it. Instead of being thankful he had a national t.v deal and accepting that you just coudln't do some things on a t.v station like that. A T.V station he was well aware of what it was when he signed on again he tried to buck the system. He clashed with the heads of that network and I'm sure it gave them no lost sleep to kick him out on the streets and invite Vince's crew on in. You think Vince bitched when he was asked to turn things down? Of course not because Vince understood how to play the game something Heyman still struggles with I believe.

 

Yeah, much better than that Don King guy who's been doing it for 40+ years.

 

Don King didn't completely change the way an entire genre of entertainment was presented. Don King is better at promoting himself than he is anything else these days. I wouldn't put Don King on the same LEVEL as Vince let alone as big as Vince as far as promoting, pushing, marketing, maintaining and CHANGING your product if needed in order to stay on top.

 

Yeah, what happened to those plans? They got scrapped, that's what. If I say I'm opening a factory in China and never do it or get spooked by the cost, should I still get credit for opening a factory in China?

 

You wouldn't get credit for creating the factory but it would be something to bring to the customers and investors of your company. You could show them both that you were working on something, exploring new options and although the cost of that operation wasn't something you wanted to take on with the world wide economy atleast you were thinking, atleast you recognized that your brand still needed and had room to grow. As I said as long as the proof is there that they very much so thought about it and really put effort into thinking of ways to make it worth I can respect that. Just like I can respect TNA no matter if they lose their ass on it or not getting out of Orlando and touring some of these different venues for pay per views. Again thats a much smaller scale but it still shows they recognize it has to grow.

[Blackman]

Yeah, I saw this and he's very right. If Ken Doane winds up being a top guy for DGUSA, his price is going WAY up if only because he'll have more options (like working DG and other promotions in Japan).

 

WWE's problem is, they don't really have too many people not already in the main event that fit the body type they're best known for. Sure, you have Jack Swagger.....but then what? Everyone else is either a "little guy" or similarly too old or brittle to be counted on regularly (like Batista, who is both old and brittle).

 

TNA is just hopeless. I can't help but imagine their creative meetings start and end with everyone standing and shouting, "WCW is dead! LONG LIVE WCW!". The saddest part is that they actually have great young talent on the roster. They just misuse it all constantly.

 

But, I think it's unfair comparing them to organized sports leagues and their scouting techniques. While it might sound great to have that kind of system in place, the problem is turnover. Pro sports have TONS of it every single year. So they have to be able to replenish their ranks constantly. Wrestling promotions don't tend to have that kind of turnover. With so many workers seemingly firmly entrenched in their spots (Taker, Michaels, especially Triple H), the turnover isn't nearly on the same level. You wind up having to release someone and then have him headline and fully blossom somewhere else (hi Christian!). Then you bring him back and he's still stuck against that glass ceiling due to lack of roster turnover.

 

Great article though. Here's the link: http://heymanhustle.craveonline.com/blogs/21208-paul-heyman-wwe-and-tna-fail-the-future

 

Which explains the return of the Masterpiece. They're running out of options. Soon they'll be desperate.

 

But, given my experience with TEW, i find it hard to turn my roster over. I find myself keeping a hold on talent until they retire. But of course, when you do that, an entire generation (in case of WWE: the attitude era) retires all at once and you're left with a dry pond.

 

It's stunning WWE didn't already learn this lesson.

[Moderndaywarrior]

Even with scouting,you still have the problem of only really having two options if you want to "big time";both companies know that anyone who wants a "shot" will have to come to them sooner or later so why bother looking?

 

I think in the end it is most likely the result of lack of competition,without someone else on a close enough level to you that you feel the need to best them,there is no drive to change or improve.....heck pretty almost every major invention and innovation in human history was driven by the urge to have more than "the other guy" and have an esier time doing it.

 

Right now, WWF is similar to the good old Romans:they pretty much conquered the known world(as they knew it),then when they started running out of "bad guys" to keep them focused,it degenerated into internal conflict and debauchery,which screwed them up to the point of no longer being able to accomplish anything effectively,and consequently,they got rolled.....yes,it took a LONG time to slide to that point but inevitably it happenedmjust as it most likely will with the McMahon "Empire".

[Irish Wolf]

Here's what gets me. The fans are clamoring for new talent they want to see new guys at the top of the roster. They're tired of all the same stories with the same people. If TNA took this to heart and cut Nash, Angle, Foley, ect... just think about their bottom line. Now your paying the smaller salary of these younger guys who want to wrestle for you 24/7 and the fans want to see them and not these bloated salaries of the stars of yester-year. Putting on great shows and making a profit while doing it. Maybe they could put some of that extra cash into production quality.

[CQI13]

Or maybe a lot of people would stop going to the events/watching on TV because they don't know anyone?