The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[djthefunkchris]

<p>On the subject of spoiler's... The original spoiler can be edited and made "white" or whatever, even after other's have seen/read it, by the poster that accidentally leaked it. I know it's much too late now, but I thought I would chime in on that, so next time instead of talking about it, perhaps we can ask the original poster to white it out, and the rest of us can ignore it easier without other's talking about it.</p><p> </p><p>

Also, quoting a spoiler mess's up the white out trick, meaning it's no longer hidden. Be sure to "erase" the actual spoiler (refering to Shad's), when quoting someone that brings one up.</p><p> </p><p>

The topic of Master's. Never was an interesting character to me. He has his usefullness, but nothing great. Again, that's my opinion. He could have been booked to go through everyone, and I would never have been able to get behind him. Not saying he can't ever get me into a character he does, but any of the one's I've seen were very unlikely to go far. </p><p> </p><p>

The topic of the spoilers: I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm actually interested in how it is going to work out, and what it does with his character.</p><p> </p><p>

The topic of Shad: I don't see him going far in a different direction. I'm not sure what they are up to here, but I do know that the crowd gets into him very easily. Just don't think that's the way to keep them interested, probably will hurt him more then help him.</p>

[Hyde Hill]

So this puts the total of active "real" tag teams in the E on 2 right? Hart Dynasty and Croft and Barreta aka Dude Busters? As given Lawlers commentary during Dibiase vs Christian it seems Rhodes and him are fully through as well.

[Self]

<p>Didn't watch RAW so didn't hear the commentary, but I don't see why Rhodes & Dibiase would be done. They brawled a bit in the triple threat at Wrestlemania, but they didn't specifically break up. I hope they stay together. Dibiase strikes me as the Robert Roode of the WWE. Solid wrestler, but so bland he needs a tag partner to give him some personality. Cody has more personallity, but seems awkward in the ring and is about as menacing as a ham sandwich. Together, they cover each other's flaws. Alone... I don't know. I don't see the appeal.</p><p> </p><p>

I don't like Jack Swagger. I don't know why. He's got that amateur background which is nice. He just seems like a low-rent Kurt Angle/Brock Lesnar to me, lacking the elements that made them special. Like 90% of the WWE guys, he needs to find that 'hook' that makes him unique.</p>

[TommyDreamerFan]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Didn't watch RAW so didn't hear the commentary, but I don't see why Rhodes & Dibiase would be done. They brawled a bit in the triple threat at Wrestlemania, but they didn't specifically break up. I hope they stay together. Dibiase strikes me as the Robert Roode of the WWE. Solid wrestler, but so bland he needs a tag partner to give him some personality. Cody has more personallity, but seems awkward in the ring and is about as menacing as a ham sandwich. Together, they cover each other's flaws. Alone... I don't know. I don't see the appeal.<p> </p><p> I don't like Jack Swagger. I don't know why. He's got that amateur background which is nice. He just seems like a low-rent Kurt Angle/Brock Lesnar to me, lacking the elements that made them special. Like 90% of the WWE guys, he needs to find that 'hook' that makes him unique.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agree about Swagger. He's to big to be like Angle but lacks the huge massive power of brock lesnar so he just ends up looking awkward to me like his body can't decide weather it wants to be a giant or not.</p><p> </p><p> The All American... American gimmick would work better in a geeky kind of way like the way Kurt was when he first debuted.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Didn't watch RAW so didn't hear the commentary, but I don't see why Rhodes & Dibiase would be done. They brawled a bit in the triple threat at Wrestlemania, but they didn't specifically break up. I hope they stay together. Dibiase strikes me as the Robert Roode of the WWE. Solid wrestler, but so bland he needs a tag partner to give him some personality. Cody has more personallity, but seems awkward in the ring and is about as menacing as a ham sandwich. Together, they cover each other's flaws. Alone... I don't know. I don't see the appeal.<p> </p><p> I don't like Jack Swagger. I don't know why. He's got that amateur background which is nice. He just seems like a low-rent Kurt Angle/Brock Lesnar to me, lacking the elements that made them special. Like 90% of the WWE guys, he needs to find that 'hook' that makes him unique.</p></div></blockquote><p> Swagger's "hook" is that he acts like a frat boy going to the ring... which makes him look completely idiotic. I know what his disposition is, but I have no idea what his gimmick or character really is. Legitimate Athlete? Maybe. Machine? Sometimes they promote he as that, but it's inconsistent. ****y Youth? He looks a bit too old for that. </p><p> </p><p> I'm not against his push, but I'm not for it. It seems like a hotshot push. WWE needs to know they can't easily hotshot pushes with most guys. It took them a couple of months, a non-starter original gimmick (Ringmaster), and a solid double turn to build Stone Cold Steve Austin. It took them one screw up with the Rock, and two solid heel runs before he become the People's Champ. </p><p> </p><p> There are a only a few cases where WWE has managed to hotshot pushes, and all of them were just because of a combination going wrong: the right gimmick, the right character, the right disposition, and the right person. That's a lot of "rights" they have to get. Off the top of my head, I can think Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, and Kane. And for them to pull it off, the WWE had to make sure EVERYTHING ELSE WENT RIGHT. And not everything went right with the push for Sheamus. The jury is still out on Swagger's current push, but I doubt WWE can pull it off at this point. They miss their chance and chances.</p>

[fatallylost]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hyde Hill" data-cite="Hyde Hill" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So this puts the total of active "real" tag teams in the E on 2 right? Hart Dynasty and Croft and Barreta aka Dude Busters? As given Lawlers commentary during Dibiase vs Christian it seems Rhodes and him are fully through as well.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm not sure we can count the Dudebusters. Since ECW closed, they were on one Smackdown, right? Unless they're on superstars, which I don't tend to watch.</p>

[TommyDreamerFan]

<p>Forgot about Sheamus just having a title. Christ is every young buck going to get the title for credibility?</p><p> </p><p>

It's bad enough we've got two main event titles, we don't need them more watered down then they already are.</p>

[sabataged]

I think I may be the only one who likes Swagger winning the title. I do agree it is too early, he should of been built up but i think this is a great opportunity for him if they book him the right way and turn him into a dominate wrestling machine from this point forward. Everyone says the Undertaker is going to take some time off. With Edge and Jericho still going back and forth with thier thing I think this is the perfect opportunity for Swagger. Run a month or maybe even two month feud with Undertaker giving Swagger the rub. Give Swagger the credit for putting Taker on the shelf for a few months before moving on to feud with Edge. With Edge's entertainment level he can keep the feud interesting enough on his own. A good 3 or 4 month feud with Edge before barely squeeking by would be nice. Just in time for Undertaker to come back for Summerslam and take the strap off of Swagger. That gives Swagger a nice 6 month trial to see how he is going to work out. In the mean time Jericho feuds with John Morrisson to finally get him up to main event level while Edge/Swagger fight it out. Once Swagger moves to Taker again, have Edge move to CM Punk. Jericho ends up challenging Taker after he has the title again so by this fall it looks something like Swagger vs Morrison, Edge vs Punk, Jericho vs Taker, Mysterio vs Mcyntyre or whatever. Just tossing out ideas.

[ampulator]

<p>It's just that, unlike Kurt Angle, Swagger doesn't have the heel qualities about him. He's acts like a dork, but he's, as someone I heard say, a lovable dork. He's your goofy frat boy cousin that you love to hate, and hate to love. Kurt was the annoying dork. The "Hey guys, what's going on?" dork that would interfere with what you are doing.</p><p> </p><p>

Besides, unlike during the Attitude Era, an "All-American American" doesn't generate heel heat, because a it's not suppose to do so, in a family-friendly product.</p>

[Tag01]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's just that, unlike Kurt Angle, Swagger doesn't have the heel qualities about him. He's acts like a dork, but he's, as someone I heard say, a lovable dork. He's your goofy frat boy cousin that you love to hate, and hate to love. Kurt was the annoying dork. The "Hey guys, what's going on?" dork that would interfere with what you are doing.<p> </p><p> Besides, unlike during the Attitude Era, an "All-American American" doesn't generate heel heat, because a it's not suppose to do so, in a family-friendly product.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This exactly. He looks great on paper, has the look, but something isn't clicking for me. He's The Ringmaster that hasn't found his Stone Cold yet.</p>

[ampulator]

<p>Stone Cold came out because Vince McMahon told Steve Austin "to do whatever you want". And that's how we got Stone Cold. If they refuse to let John Cena do that, what chances will Jack Swagger get a chance? </p><p> </p><p>

Interestingly, I don't find Swagger a compelling heel. Despite promoting his height and weight, he looks more very lean. He's goofy yet gentle smile (something Mark Henry has also), lowers any Menace he might or might not have. </p><p> </p><p>

They should have booked Swagger as a Wrestling Machine. Doesn't really matter if face or not. It just fits him better than his... whatever is current gimmick is. </p><p> </p><p>

I just want to point out that, even when Kurt was the "Olympic Hero", it was either done in the context of a Legit Athlete gimmick, an egomianac gimmick, or a machine gimmick. It was always clear what gimmick he was using. </p><p> </p><p>

Swagger? He's a Legit Athlete with's arrogant who is occasionally a machine... and there lies the gimmick confusion that WWE has. They merge character and gimmick together. Characters can be subtle and complex, even in the WWE. They are often not, but they can be. Gimmicks, in the WWE, however, cannot.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

<p>I like the gimmicks that aren't as cut and dry as other's, thus my liking of Swagger... From the first time I saw him actually.</p><p> </p><p>

I like the goofy smile, as it's saying just about anything, depending on the circumstances... It could mean "Boy, this guy just doesn't have a clue, this will be fun", or it might mean "What have I got myself into", or it might mean "It's only a matter of time, doesn't matter who I face"</p><p> </p><p>

Just saying, I like this character alot more then I liked Angles. I know most will dissagree, but I think WWE needs more characters with multiple characteristics. You don't know who Swagger is definately going to side with at any given time. He might side with a face or a heel, depending on what is important to him on that day.</p><p> </p><p>

If you look at WWE as most do here, as that "PG" wrestling company, your never going to enjoy half the stuff they do. The world doesn't view WWE as that "PG" company, and it's too bad that knowing these things ruin it for alot of people that are "in the know". It's as if you look at something like TEW and say... "Hey, they have character's that don't fit their style" instead of realising that they always have had character's that are misfits in the company from, well, I can't think of a time when they didn't. They have never been all "Simple Gimmicks" that I can remember.</p>

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Stone Cold came out because Vince McMahon told Steve Austin "to do whatever you want". And that's how we got Stone Cold. If they refuse to let John Cena do that, what chances will Jack Swagger get a chance?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Actually, this isn't exactly true. Austin's breakout moment (at KOTR) came as a result of the other Vince (Russo) letting him 'do his own thing' (because he didn't have a decent promo scripted for him). That made big Vince livid...until he saw the reaction. Source: Pro Wrestling Insiders DVD (Russo & Ferrara w/Wade Keller) & The Stone Cold Truth. Sure, VKM might've let him create the character but it didn't catch fire until that moment.</p><p> </p><p> But I think Swagger needs (among other things) a new finisher. The Gutwrench (and powerbombs in particular) doesn't fit his size or character. You give powerbombs to big workers who are limited in their skillset and ability (Batista, anyone?). Yes, someone's going to cite the Undertaker but The Last Ride fit that character (American Badass) far moreso than the finisher he had gotten over previously (plus they needed something different from the old character.). Swagger needs something more technically oriented that he can perform on people his size or larger (since he's likely to face someone like Taker or Trips or Batista or even Khali at some point). Gutwrench, the way he does it, is boring looking. Maybe turn it into a facebuster (instead of dropping the opponent forward after the gutwrench, he falls backward) or adding a sitout to it (but then it'd still be a powerbomb)? Or just a submission finish like a crossface chickenwing. But in a promotion with people with overly simplistic finishers (powerbombs, big boots, etc), making him seem particularly special with a more technically oriented (but low impact) finisher seems one way to make him stand out (in a positive light).</p><p> </p><p> EDIT: chris, for those people who remember the 'edgy' salad days, today's product can't be regarded as anything <em><strong>but</strong></em> 'PG'. How 'the world' views things doesn't come into play when most people make entertainment value decisions. Why haven't you played WoW full time over the last five and a half years? 'The world' is, so why aren't you? If you don't have an iPhone, why not? 'The world' loves it so it must be good.</p>

[CQI13]

I'd mark out for a Bob Backlund-like Cross face chicken wing. Would it be more effective if he just let go and walked out after the bell rang (declaring him the winner)? Or if he held it just long enough to not get disqualified?

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="CQI13" data-cite="CQI13" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd mark out for a Bob Backlund-like Cross face chicken wing.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> And that's the exact reaction I think they should shoot for. It's old school enough to have legs on its own, but given his far superior physical look (over Backlund), would look even more impressive with him doing it, I think.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="CQI13" data-cite="CQI13" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Would it be more effective if he just let go and walked out after the bell rang (declaring him the winner)? Or if he held it just long enough to not get disqualified?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Think about it. His goofy grin would make it fit him walking backward up the ramp surveying his handiwork.</p><p> </p><p> And wasn't one of Backlund's more popular gimmicks the all-american thing?</p>

[CQI13]

Ok, I'm stealing this for my non-WWE dynasty.

[Self]

Hmm. I think I forgot to comment on NXT. Seeing as I still love the show, I might as well do it now.

 

- It looks like they're calling the matches in the ring. Good practice, I suppose, but isn't that what FCW is for? The action often looks awkward and clunky, which is a turn off for me.

 

- I was disappointed with the 'voting'. I thought it would bring structure to the show, but it's just... fake. It's clearly made up, and lazily at that. There's no information on which-pro-voted-for-which-rookie, or how each rookie did in each category, or any of the stuff stat-crunching sports fans might enjoy. It also robs us for some drama. If we'd seen, for example, that David Otunga had high "IT factor" but low "Work Ethic", then that's a new layer to his character. If Justin Gabriel had been rating highly by all the pro's except William Regal, then there's some tension to exploit for a later match. The league table is good, but it could have been better.

 

- Daniel Bryan is first? On the one hand, it proves WWE aren't trying to kill him with the streak. Personally I would have gone with a more underdog-sports-movie-comeback story, but there you go. If anything, this proves wins-and-losses mean nothing in WWE.

 

- Chris Jericho on commentary is very amusing. Highlight of a fairly dull show.

[Remianen]

- I was disappointed with the 'voting'. I thought it would bring structure to the show, but it's just... fake. It's clearly made up, and lazily at that. There's no information on which-pro-voted-for-which-rookie, or how each rookie did in each category, or any of the stuff stat-crunching sports fans might enjoy. It also robs us for some drama. If we'd seen, for example, that David Otunga had high "IT factor" but low "Work Ethic", then that's a new layer to his character. If Justin Gabriel had been rating highly by all the pro's except William Regal, then there's some tension to exploit for a later match. The league table is good, but it could have been better.

 

No offense Self but there is nothing WWE could do to attract the attention of 'stat-crunching sports fans'. Not a thing. A fan that knows sabermetrics, for example, isn't going to be at all engaged by WWE's format, no matter how it's done. Thus, the audience for the leaderboard is, as expected, the casual fan. Numbers are intimidating to much of the viewing populace, after all.

 

- Daniel Bryan is first? On the one hand, it proves WWE aren't trying to kill him with the streak. Personally I would have gone with a more underdog-sports-movie-comeback story, but there you go. If anything, this proves wins-and-losses mean nothing in WWE.

 

The idea I got from watching all this is the pro voting isn't about wins and losses. It's about respect, work ethic, potential, and such. The way I saw it, Daniel Bryan got the best score from the pros because he's the most 'pro' of the rookies. This isn't his first dance, he's proven himself all over the world, he's a true professional and his peers recognize that. While I agree your idea could've injected some drama into the story, I think I see where they're going with this.

 

Daniel Bryan won't win this competition. The drama will come in the payoff.

[jesterx7769]

I see both sides but I agree with Self, I would have liked to see the Pro's voting backstage or something, show the Miz upset, stuff like that. However it would take too much time so I understand the way they did it but the lack of emotion and caring kinda stunk, all we got was a minimal Otunga/Bryan mini feud

[Self]

The Daniel Bryan thing is cool. I get it. It's just not the story I thought they were telling... which is by no means bad. Just took me by surprise.

 

To again harp on at the stat-crunching aspects (and it's highly possible that I'm the only one interested in this type of thing) another thing that bums me out is how poor/phoney the record keeping seems to be. The opening video package says Heath Slater is undefeated, Heath Slater comes out making a 4-0 hand gesture, but the graphic disagree. It says 3-1. I'm pretty sure Michael Tarver's was wrong too. Said 1-3, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't won yet. However, that one I understand to an extent. Gotta make Bryan's losing streak unique.

 

Really though, if you're running for 16 weeks, how hard are the wins and losses to keep track of? I know it's the C-show, but have some pride in your work, NXT producers.

 

Also, I hope the guys get their own music soon. It could be a fun episode. I look forward to Punk & Regal's reactions to their rookie's chosen themes.

[The Final Countdown]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Also, I hope the guys get their own music soon. It could be a fun episode. I look forward to Punk & Regal's reactions to their rookie's chosen themes.</p></div></blockquote><p> If this were TNA, Daniel Bryan would get a generic knock-off of "The Final Countdown."</p>

[Linsolv]

<p>I hope Skip Sheffield gets "voted off." Can't stand that guy.</p><p> </p><p>

Also, in addition to Jericho's great commentary, on further reflection I think that Wade Barrett's performance was pretty impressive.</p>

[Tag01]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Linsolv" data-cite="Linsolv" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I hope Skip Sheffield gets "voted off." Can't stand that guy.<p> </p><p> Also, in addition to Jericho's great commentary, on further reflection I think that Wade Barrett's performance was pretty impressive.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I didn't like him either. But Michael Tarver brings literally zero to the table. Hopefully he doesn't survive tribal council. Is that how they're doing the voting?</p>

[TheEdgeOfReason]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Tag01" data-cite="Tag01" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I didn't like him either. But Michael Tarver brings literally zero to the table. Hopefully he doesn't survive tribal council. Is that how they're doing the voting?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It s pity about Tarver. When it started I thought he would be awesome, he has a good gimmick and look but when you don't live up to your nickname, it's hard to look good.</p>

[jesterx7769]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheEdgeOfReason" data-cite="TheEdgeOfReason" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It s pity about Tarver. When it started I thought he would be awesome, he has a good gimmick and look but when you don't live up to your nickname, it's hard to look good.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Unfortunately I felt the complete opposite when I first saw him. In a time where real fighting in UFC beats WWE in PPV buys his "I'm a real tough guy that knocks people out" was doomed from the start, he even wears (or wore, I didnt pay attention this week) MMA gloves. Plus the Big Show has been doing his KO punch so I doubted they would have Tarver start knocking people out, would be like Bryan pedigree'ing people.</p>