The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

Yeah, I agree about Hardy. It's my understanding that they are keeping him around to not give him to TNA.

 

As for Kane, I thought he was still getting a huge pop...

 

I love Kane, but by WWE's own logic, he should be released, as Hardy. Heck, where do you think Benjamin is likely to end up if he decides he wants stay in the wreslting business? Only two places that might be able to afford him.

[Linsolv]

I love Kane, but by WWE's own logic, he should be released, as Hardy. Heck, where do you think Benjamin is likely to end up if he decides he wants stay in the wreslting business? Only two places that might be able to afford him.

 

No, no. What I meant about Hardy was that Matt and Jeff are worth a lot more as a boxed set than either one separately.

 

Benjamin, however, is not part of any such set.

[ampulator]

Charlie Haas? But I can't disagree on that point.

[Self]

As much as he's simply an afterthought on TV, there's a value to keeping Kane around. He loses so rarely that it's still a semi-big deal for a young guy to beat him, so he can elevate folks a bit. Plus his size gives him an "ooh aah" factor in house shows. He's a minor attraction, whereas Benjamin & Hardy are just typical wrestlers unless you're specifically a fan of theirs.

 

I'll worry about Hardy when Justin Gabriel is eliminated from NXT.

[ampulator]

Self, the issue isn't Kane... it's not even the fact they released Benjamin. It's WHY they released him.

[Tha Black Phenom]

YOU make a fair point. But being happy where you were? Hell, they might as well fire Matt Hardy too then. Kane maybe. Besides what the hell they can expect, being on the road five days a week? What do they want? They have to hold back sometimes. Not go full out. What did they want Benjamin to do, be Kurt Angle and literally burn himself out pulling 5 star matches out of neck and body?

 

No, they wanted him to deliver. Nobody's talking about him going all out, rather just delivering on all the chances they've thrown his way or at least be of SOME use if not. Kane and Matt are completely different situations, the WWE's logic works on them but there's always other factors to counter it too. Kane is a right tool for putting others over and he's a vet in the locker-room. And despite the fact that Matt Hardy admittedly hasn't ran with any ball either, he's shown to always go forth and take full advantage of the little things they give him(which is more than the matches).

 

What we see at face value shouldn't be indicative of everything, and just because Shelton's been working his butt off in the ring doesn't mean he wasn't coasting. There's always more than meets the eye. He could've been coasting on several other issues, maybe more than the mic work. Travel issues, backstage situations, we never know. Even if not that, they gave him those many gimmicks through out 05-07, they all fizzled out while he stayed genuine in the ring. That's great, but where's that gonna get ya? There's been rampant reports about him lacking passion in 06, during that time they gave him IC title reigns and all the jazz. They quite often expected more of him and he didn't seem like he ever wanted the role(s) they thought for him.

 

It's one thing to work hard in an area, but as a whole I wouldn't say he wasn't coasting. There's definitely been worse cases than him, and hell maybe there are some now but Shelton's contract came up and that was all that needed to be. Maybe when another one of those cases will have their contract expired, the same thing might go down and the same reason might come up.

[lazorbeak]

I'm with you on Beth, but Melina? No way is Melina any better than Mickie, IMO.

 

 

Why, exactly? I know this is the perception but Melina has managed to have not just good but very good matches with Beth Phoenix, Mickie James, Jillian Hall, and as I said, she had a great match with McCool on the same card where James had a terrible match with an equally green worker. How is she "in no way" better than Mickie? I guess I just don't get it. For me it'd be like somebody saying Lita was a better worker than Molly Holly: yes, maybe Lita was more over, but I could watch Molly Holly matches without being worried she was about to break her own neck.

 

But hey, don't take my word for it:

 

"I think Melina is really creative and imaginative. She’s an innovator and she comes up with some great matches. I love watching her wrestle. In a lot of ways, I think she’s the best wrestler in the world right now.”

 

-Bret Hart.

[ampulator]

Like I said, I'm not angry that he was released. He didn't fit the WWE's style. But it's still rather hard for to believe he's coasting. He might not be the right person for the job, but that doesn't he was coasting. If they let him go because he wasn't the right person, I wouldn't be so angry.

 

It feels to me, that they would have admit they screwed up if they admitted if wasn't the right person for the job, because that meant they made mistakes on hiring AND rehiring him again and again. They lop it off to Benjamin saying he's "coasting". That's how it feels.

 

Why, exactly? I know this is the perception but Melina has managed to have not just good but very good matches with Beth Phoenix, Mickie James, Jillian Hall, and as I said, she had a great match with McCool on the same card where James had a terrible match with an equally green worker. How is she "in no way" better than Mickie? I guess I just don't get it. For me it'd be like somebody saying Lita was a better worker than Molly Holly: yes, maybe Lita was more over, but I could watch Molly Holly matches without being worried she was about to break her own neck.

 

But hey, don't take my word for it:

 

"I think Melina is really creative and imaginative. She’s an innovator and she comes up with some great matches. I love watching her wrestle. In a lot of ways, I think she’s the best wrestler in the world right now.”

 

-Bret Hart.

 

 

I'll concede partly. In terms of Consistency, Melina has gotten better than Mickie James. Mickie James was never all that consistent in terms of performance, and sometimes she's quite careless. However, in terms of technical, flying, and what not, she's not as good as Mickie James. Mickie is also more athletic than Melina is.

 

I can concede she's less likely to have bad match than Mickie James, but I don't really feel she can pull off a better match than Mickie James if Mickie was not having an off night and was pulling out all stops.

 

I'm not a Mickie fan, though, so I'm not the best defender.

[Remianen]

First of all, don't assume I don't know that. EVERYONE KNOWS IT. And I really disagree with you he was coasting. If he kept up his ringwork, then he wasn't my coasting.

 

My point wasn't that ALL HE NEEDED TO DO WAS HAVE GOOD RING WORK. MY POINT WAS THAT HE WASN'T COASTING BECAUSE HE WAS TRYING SO DAMN HARD IN HIS MATCHES. As for his mic work. it sucks. Not everyone can god damn be the Rock or even just the Miz. Hell, how many people in the E are THAT DAMN GOOD ON THE MIC? And that's assuming if he improved on the mic that they would have pushed him. I sure don't believe that. Hell, Lesnar wasn't exactly gold on the mic, neither is Big Show, but they were serviceable. Benjamin is a tad worse, but not so much he was "COASTING".

 

Hell, if Shelton Benjamin is coasting, then just about everyone in WWE is coasting, dagnabbit. They should fire most of them for doing even less than Shelton Benjamin.

 

Yeah, you keep thinking that matches are what matter primarily in WWE. Instead of screaming like a paragon of petulance, go back and look at the tape. I don't give a flip how good his matches were and obviously, neither does the E. You can't advance feuds in WWE solely on ringwork, can you? Shelton looked disinterested and listless in many of his promos from his ECW stint. His character has never been overtly interesting (which places him in stark contrast to Brock and Big Show, does it not?) and needed time on camera to really build interest.

 

Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. If she did that, she would have been fired. Immediately. Batista is what now to the WWE? And what was her? Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

I'm sorry, what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, MICKIE JAMES GETTING RELEASED.

 

Sounds like a synonym for 'fired' to me.

 

And lazorbeak, that quote can't stand on its own. If he's talking about just in WWE (as in WWE = 'the world'), perhaps. If he's talking literally, he's shown how little he's familiar with the subject.

[lazorbeak]

And lazorbeak, that quote can't stand on its own. If he's talking about just in WWE (as in WWE = 'the world'), perhaps. If he's talking literally, he's shown how little he's familiar with the subject.

 

I think there's obviously some hyperbole but Perez is criminally underrated: she can work face or heel (though is better suited as a heel), can pull out good matches with abysmal talent, and can put on very entertaining matches when paired up with someone like Beth Phoenix.

 

 

Mickie is more athletic than Melina? I guess I just don't see it: most of her botches tend to come off aerial moves that she's not athletic enough to pull off.

[ampulator]

Yeah, you keep thinking that matches are what matter primarily in WWE. Instead of screaming like a paragon of petulance, go back and look at the tape. I don't give a flip how good his matches were and obviously, neither does the E. You can't advance feuds in WWE solely on ringwork, can you? Shelton looked disinterested and listless in many of his promos from his ECW stint. His character has never been overtly interesting (which places him in stark contrast to Brock and Big Show, does it not?) and needed time on camera to really build interest.

 

 

NO I DO NOT. You ASSUMED I DID. That's the difference. I NEVER ONCE THOUGHT THAT MATCHES WERE THE MOST IMPORTANT IN THE WWE, EVER.

 

Hell, I watched the WWF during the Attitude Era, all the damn time. Do you know think I wouldn't know that the angles mattered more after watching them all these years? Or do you not think I don't know that's how Stone Cold Steve Austin and the Rock ultimately got over is through angles?

 

 

I'm sorry, what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, MICKIE JAMES GETTING RELEASED.

 

You misunderstand me. I don't care much for Mickie, but I don't have anything against her. What problem with your statement is you seem to think Mickie had more power in the WWE than Batista, or at least, in a certain way. Anyone paying attention to the WWE knows that isn't the case.

 

And two, this isn't the first time something like this has happened with Batista. There has been cases where Randy Orton has gotten into backstage problems with Divas, yet he never threatened to quit over such arguments. What is big Dave? Tough on the outside, but easy-to-push like Jim Cornette is, without the fire?

 

Mickie is more athletic than Melina? I guess I just don't see it: most of her botches tend to come off aerial moves that she's not athletic enough to pull off.

 

I guess that's a fair point. But I chalk it up to... now, don't be shocked... that if anyone could be labeled as coasting, it was her.

[The Final Countdown]

Why, exactly?

Could just be personal preference, who knows? All I can say is that Melina's never really impressed me. Mickie has her screw-ups, sure (so do the vast majority of the women in WWE, Melina included) but I've definitely found her to be more entertaining than Melina.

 

"I think Melina is really creative and imaginative. She’s an innovator and she comes up with some great matches. I love watching her wrestle. In a lot of ways, I think she’s the best wrestler in the world right now.”

 

-Bret Hart.

I have nothing but respect for Bret, who is one of my childhood heroes. But I could not disagree more with that quote, particularly the last sentence. Seriously, Bret?

[TracyBrooksFan]

ok Bret said Melina great so it makes her great when alot of people in the business has said Mickie a good or great worker yet she garbage?

 

I understand where ya'll are coming from but i still think Mickie is one of the best workers they had.

 

 

As for the wrestlemania "botch" finish, well even Trish said she was selling her leg injury and could not pick Mickie up fully.

[Hyde Hill]

I think there's obviously some hyperbole but Perez is criminally underrated: she can work face or heel (though is better suited as a heel), can pull out good matches with abysmal talent, and can put on very entertaining matches when paired up with someone like Beth Phoenix.

 

 

Mickie is more athletic than Melina? I guess I just don't see it: most of her botches tend to come off aerial moves that she's not athletic enough to pull off.

 

Agreed, altough I felt her match against McTaker was overrated, but I can not and will not be objective towards Calloway's pounding cardboard TNA ripoff plank, but it was way better then Mickie's forray on the same card. Melina's match with Beth at Extreme rules was good though and she seems more capable of making a bad worker seem decent or get something out of them then Micky did and that is a very good quality to have in general and especially in the E's women division.

[The Celt]

To be fair calling anyone the greatest in the world is always going to be controversial, 10x so if that person is a woman. I don't know if I'd call Melina the greatest, but she sure is under-rated I think. I mean if a guy had the pretty much the exact same move set as Melina they'd be getting over. Also Melina is actually quite creative when it comes to spots; she's very, very good at coming up with unique ways and situations to apply her moves.

 

I think if the WWE divas were more about serious competition Melina would still a big fore runner.

 

You know it'll never happen, but if Melina was ever in SHIMMER or something, I honestly believe she'd be more than capable of keeping her head above water.

 

Also, I don't know why I think this, but I'm (for some reason) so sure that Melina could do a 450* splash. She just seems like the type who could pull it off.

[TracyBrooksFan]

To be fair calling anyone the greatest in the world is always going to be controversial, 10x so if that person is a woman. I don't know if I'd call Melina the greatest, but she sure is under-rated I think. I mean if a guy had the pretty much the exact same move set as Melina they'd be getting over. Also Melina is actually quite creative when it comes to spots; she's very, very good at coming up with unique ways and situations to apply her moves.

 

I think if the WWE divas were more about serious competition Melina would still a big fore runner.

 

You know it'll never happen, but if Melina was ever in SHIMMER or something, I honestly believe she'd be more than capable of keeping her head above water.

 

Also, I don't know why I think this, but I'm (for some reason) so sure that Melina could do a 450* splash. She just seems like the type who could pull it off.

 

I think she can pull a 450 splash also as can Jillian.

 

 

 

I like Melina and i do think she good but not better then Mickie In My Opinion

[Linsolv]

You misunderstand me. I don't care much for Mickie, but I don't have anything against her. What problem with your statement is you seem to think Mickie had more power in the WWE than Batista, or at least, in a certain way. Anyone paying attention to the WWE knows that isn't the case.

 

The way it came off to me was that because Mickie's a woman there is no way for a big, huge behemoth like Dave Bautista to have a fair fight with her. She could scream, hit him, and so on and so forth quite literally all the way up to murder, and if he even suggested raising a hand to her, he would have bad press for the rest of his career.

 

To be honest, I was almost worried someone would scream misogyny after that comment, but it didn't turn out that way. Not that I thought it was misogynist, just that someone on the prowl to argue that someone hates women would pick up on that comment. Which is silly because everyone knows Remi thinks women's wrestling is the best.

[PeterHilton]

ok Bret said Melina great so it makes her great when alot of people in the business has said Mickie a good or great worker yet she garbage?

 

I understand where ya'll are coming from but i still think Mickie is one of the best workers they had.

 

 

As for the wrestlemania "botch" finish, well even Trish said she was selling her leg injury and could not pick Mickie up fully.

 

Don't take this personally but...are you really young or is English your second language? You posting from your blackberry?

[PeterHilton]

Also...if you want to do the 'coasting' debate...Shelton's mic work never improved. It didn't. In that way he's been coasting for years.

 

But it was stil a mistake to release him because, in the same way that Kane's size makes him an attraction, Shelton's athleticism and ability to work a decent match would've made him a perfectly acceptable midcardr for years.

 

The E has several guys on the roster who's sole job seems to be to season the younger workers : Finlay, Regal, etc

 

Well those guys are on the wrong side of 30 so having men like Shelton or Haas or Chavo or (going way back) keeping Dinsmore around would not be a bad idea.

[TracyBrooksFan]

Don't take this personally but...are you really young or is English your second language? You posting from your blackberry?

 

im not young and english is my first language.

 

I type like i do because i DONT HAVE TO type a certain way for anyone.

[Hyde Hill]

im not young and english is my first language.

 

I type like i do because i DONT HAVE TO type a certain way for anyone.

 

That is correct, but good grammer and spelling does help get your point across better in some situations, and this board is one of them mainly due to the nature of a lot of the IWC and the internet in general, which we try to avoid here.

 

Personally I do not mind as I can understand what you are saying and your tone and word use is always polite and that is the main thing imho.

[ampulator]

Also...if you want to do the 'coasting' debate...Shelton's mic work never improved. It didn't. In that way he's been coasting for years.

 

But it was stil a mistake to release him because, in the same way that Kane's size makes him an attraction, Shelton's athleticism and ability to work a decent match would've made him a perfectly acceptable midcardr for years.

 

The E has several guys on the roster who's sole job seems to be to season the younger workers : Finlay, Regal, etc

 

Well those guys are on the wrong side of 30 so having men like Shelton or Haas or Chavo or (going way back) keeping Dinsmore around would not be a bad idea.

A lot of people's mic work hasn't really improved. As for him coasting on mic work, maybe, but was he coasting in general? Getting lazy on protecting guys in the ring? Becoming late? Dragging his feet to make it to events?

 

That's why I have the problem when they label him as coasting. It sounds like they are accusing of coasting in general. I can't see it as the case, literally. The guy takes a crazy dive off the MITB almost every year he's in it (almost), but a guy that's coasting in general won't even bother that off. Why risk your body if you truly don't give a damn?

[lazorbeak]

ok Bret said Melina great so it makes her great when alot of people in the business has said Mickie a good or great worker yet she garbage?

 

I understand where ya'll are coming from but i still think Mickie is one of the best workers they had.

 

 

As for the wrestlemania "botch" finish, well even Trish said she was selling her leg injury and could not pick Mickie up fully.

 

Yeah that was a botch and kudos for Trish for being a professional but when they edit out something entirely from a dvd it's a botch and a bad one.

 

And I was using Bret's comment as a supporting example along with specific examples where she put on demonstratively better performances against similar talent within the past year. So unsourced hearsay about people calling Mickie "good or great" really has nothing to do with anything, and since nobody called her garbage, I don't know what you're talking about anyway?

 

im not young and english is my first language.

 

I type like i do because i DONT HAVE TO type a certain way for anyone.

 

There's a lot of things people don't have to do but common courtesy makes them do it anyway. It's hard to have any dialogue when people have to decode what you're trying to say.

[Moe Hunter]

ok Bret said Melina great so it makes her great when alot of people in the business has said Mickie a good or great worker yet she garbage?

 

I understand where ya'll are coming from but i still think Mickie is one of the best workers they had.

 

As for the wrestlemania "botch" finish, well even Trish said she was selling her leg injury and could not pick Mickie up fully.

Who in the business said the same of Mickie that Bret (and Mick Foley, while we're at it) said about Melina?

 

Mickie started out good but she went way downhill. Wrestlemania 21 was 5 years ago now!

 

im not young and english is my first language.

 

I type like i do because i DONT HAVE TO type a certain way for anyone.

I don't HAVE to put on a shirt to walk around town. Just because you aren't forced to do something, doesn't mean it's not a good idea. I don't have a problem with your typing because it's clear enough, but would I prefer it if everyone typed properly? Absolutely I would!

 

A lot of people's mic work hasn't really improved. As for him coasting on mic work, maybe, but was he coasting in general? Getting lazy on protecting guys in the ring?

He purposely went against the RA's wishes and did his Pay Dirt move instead of the planned finish in a match with an unsuspecting Mr Kennedy, injuring him. Who knows how many other stories like that haen't been revealed. We wouldn't know about that one if Kennedy hadn't been released.

[Self]

Self, the issue isn't Kane... it's not even the fact they released Benjamin. It's WHY they released him.

 

Forgive me for going off on a bit of a tangent. I do that sometimes.

 

Benjamin has a bit of a reputation for 'coasting'. Not eating perfectly. Not going to the gym a ton (I could have sworn I read an interview where he admitted this) Getting by on his genetics without going the extra mile. I dunno, he may have come off as a bit lazy (again, I have no evidence of this beyond an interview I think I read a long time ago) That, coupled with promo skills and the number of failed pushes over the years, I can see why he was cut, and I agree with it. Time for fresh blood. I'd give Hardy and Kane the same consideration for the same reasons.

 

On the Melina discussion... I loved the Melina/McCool PPV match from a while back. The one that kicked off with McCool baseball sliding her from the splits entrance. They did a lot of wacky innovative stuff in that match. I dug it.