The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

The problem is, there's a better way to go about it. In TEW terms, their product is:

 

Key Feature: Mainstream

Heavy: Comedy

Medium: Traditional

 

The problem is, the lack of even basic variety hurts a lot of their performers. So far, the only wrestler that THRIVES on their product is the Miz. He pratically fits like a glove with it. Everyone else, including Cena, doesn't fit well enough. Miz fits so well he looks too darn good for his own good sometimes.

 

What I would like to see is a bit more Modern and Lucha LIbre to mix things up. It's not like either hurts the WWE in terms of stability. It's like McDonald's vs. Burger King again. McDonald's is too mainstream... Burger is also Mainstream, but with more variety. I'm not asking for much. Just some more variety.

[Genadi]

In TEW terms, their product is:

 

Key Feature: Mainstream

Heavy: Comedy

Medium: Traditional

 

Key Feature: Mainstream, Traditional

Heavy: Comedy

Medium: Modern

 

Just my two cents.

 

I think the product had a medium amount of Modern - "The element of having faster-moving, edgy, flashy matches and angles for the benefit of the modern short attention span".

[ampulator]

Actually, as a Modern fan, there aren't nearly as Modern as they should be. I would rank ROH having Modern at Medium. There's no way WWE has even that amount. At best, WWE has it at Low.

 

And as for Traditional being Key, that's not exactly correct either. The problem is, in Traditional wrestling, if you hit your finisher, that's it. Unless your feet or hand is near the ropes, the guy wins. Period. A finisher almost always hit. Considering everyone in the WWE can escape any finishers at almost any moment, this isn't definitely Traditional. At best, it's Heavy. There's no way Traditional wrestling is on the same level as Mainstream wrestling in the WWE. Remember NWA vs. WWF? It's because the WWE wasn't Traditional enough, in their eyes.

[Genadi]

You said in TEW terms that's why I commented...

 

Traditional: The element of traditional “good guy vs. bad guy” wrestling, where the emphasis is on telling a story via ring work, characters, and storylines.

 

Mainstream: The element of entertaining the masses with family-friendly easy-to-understand characters and skits, plus all the associated glitz and glamour.

 

I'd say they both feature just as prominently in the WWE product at the moment.

 

Modern: The element of having faster-moving, edgy, flashy matches and angles for the benefit of the modern short attention span.

 

We'll have to disagree on that because imo the above is featured in WWE a fair bit, enough to set to Medium.

 

Sorry I shouldn't be wasting space in the Dog Pound WWE thread discussing TEW product types. I leave you to your thread

[Moe Hunter]

I don't think they're Heavy on comedy. Comedy in TEW terms means playing up comedic elements of matches as well as angles, and they very rarely do comedy in between the bells. Plus a lot of their "skits" are ridiculously unfunny - dig up a copy of a video called "WWF's Funniest Moments" - it's extremely low on laughs. WWE's comedy usually comes from things that the WWE don't consider especially funny.

[Marshall]

Just caught Raw and the ending with Cena beating up Darren Young reminded me of that Summerslam match between the two Undertakers - Young looks that much like Cena!

[supershot]

Just caught Raw and the ending with Cena beating up Darren Young reminded me of that Summerslam match between the two Undertakers - Young looks that much like Cena!

 

Haha now that you mention it, picturing him with no hair, I can make the comparison.

[Hyde Hill]

I don't think they're Heavy on comedy. Comedy in TEW terms means playing up comedic elements of matches as well as angles, and they very rarely do comedy in between the bells. Plus a lot of their "skits" are ridiculously unfunny - dig up a copy of a video called "WWF's Funniest Moments" - it's extremely low on laughs. WWE's comedy usually comes from things that the WWE don't consider especially funny.

 

The quality of the comedy does not come into play when talking about product. The amount does. On the modern debate, yes they have short angles and matches but their angles and matches and stories are slow. Also given the type of wrestling and wrestlers employed they have Modern at max Low and closer to Very Low. Key: Mainstream, Heavy: Traditional, Medium: Comedy. My two cents.

[Hyde Hill]

Just caught Raw and the ending with Cena beating up Darren Young reminded me of that Summerslam match between the two Undertakers - Young looks that much like Cena!

 

Lol little late noticing that, but yeah black Cena head wise he is.

[PeterHilton]

The problem is, there's a better way to go about it. In TEW terms, their product is:

 

Key Feature: Mainstream

Heavy: Comedy

Medium: Traditional

 

The problem is, the lack of even basic variety hurts a lot of their performers. So far, the only wrestler that THRIVES on their product is the Miz. He pratically fits like a glove with it. Everyone else, including Cena, doesn't fit well enough. Miz fits so well he looks too darn good for his own good sometimes.

 

What I would like to see is a bit more Modern and Lucha LIbre to mix things up. It's not like either hurts the WWE in terms of stability. It's like McDonald's vs. Burger King again. McDonald's is too mainstream... Burger is also Mainstream, but with more variety. I'm not asking for much. Just some more variety.

 

Better is a relative term. Better to who? I'm sure you see how hard it would be to please the always changing tatses of the net fan.

 

I get what you're saying. I do. I'd love to see a little more Lucha or indy hustle style, or edgier storylines, or more hardcore matches. I mean...the product is so predictable that I can literally go weeks w/o watching and be completely caught up after one episode of Raw.

 

But if you're a billion dollar company with stockholders to answer to and a public image that has been brutalized in the last few years, how willing would you be to try something different?

 

Would you sit there and try to create risque characters and storylines in order to push the envelope in order to please a target audience that is just as likely to watch UFC and has -for the most part - very little disposable income? Or would you do everything you could to put togethera safe product that you know will please a segemtn of the viewing audience that are proven spenders?

 

Take your example: Burger King vs McDonald's. You say that McDonald's is 'too mainstream' and BK has a better variety. Probably true. (i think McDonalds food is awful) But look at it this way: Too Mainstream McDonalds generates roughly twice the annual profits as BK and is so far ahead of them in the fast food industry that magazines like Forbes don't even bother comparing the two ..(McDonalds is generally examined alongside other 'industry leaders' like Starbucks or whatnot)

 

If 'too mainstream' equates to an extra 3 billion dollars a year, would you turn that away if you ran McDonald's?

 

Do I personally think it's a great product? No. (referring to both the WWE and McD's)

 

But I GETwhy the WWE does what it does. And I'm not sure a lot of fans try to see that point of view. (not saying that you don't...just a general statement about the concept of profit vs creative integrity)

[ampulator]

That's a fair point. But personally speaking, I think both McD's and WWE is doing this for short-term profit. Is it a lot of profit? Yes. But is it sustainable? I doubt it. If trends change significantly (and they can), they will be caught off guard, and their profits will begin to drop.

 

It's not like I'm asking for a big change. Are little changes here and there actually DECREASE profit? I doubt it. That being said, WWE is experiencing with a tiny bit of Lucha Libre, if only a tiny bit (Rey Mysterio, Dos Caras Jr.), but I wish it was a bit more.

 

The quality of the comedy does not come into play when talking about product. The amount does. On the modern debate, yes they have short angles and matches but their angles and matches and stories are slow. Also given the type of wrestling and wrestlers employed they have Modern at max Low and closer to Very Low. Key: Mainstream, Heavy: Traditional, Medium: Comedy. My two cents.

 

I can concede to that. And I agree with the slowness of the matches. I also want to add that WWE matches don't nearly have enough risk or high-flying moves to have a lot of Modern wrestling.

[PeterHilton]

 

It's not like I'm asking for a big change. Are little changes here and there actually DECREASE profit? I doubt it. That being said, WWE is experiencing with a tiny bit of Lucha Libre, if only a tiny bit (Rey Mysterio, Dos Caras Jr.), but I wish it was a bit more.

 

So do I. If Mistico had been even a slightly better English speaker he would've made a great addition a couple years back.

[Genadi]

So do I. If Mistico had been even a slightly better English speaker he would've made a great addition a couple years back.

 

Not sure that has anything to do with him wrestling a Lucha style though, imo he's that good of a worker he would've made a great addition to any promotion.

[PeterHilton]

Not sure that has anything to do with him wrestling a Lucha style though, imo he's that good of a worker he would've made a great addition to any promotion.

 

True. But if you take away his lucha style or character I think you take away what makes him realyl special.

[Genadi]

True. But if you take away his lucha style or character I think you take away what makes him realyl special.

 

Good point, I love his ring attire especially and for a lucha that shows how good it is for it to stand out!

[Linsolv]

Personally, I don't mind the super-mainstream, super-traditional product. It's not that, it's the fact that it's dumbed down so much. Captain America is ridiculously mainstream and traditional, using the TEW definitions, and yet it's a mature enough story with realistic enough characters (personality wise) that I'm not repulsed by it -- instead I freaking LOVE Captain America.

[PeterHilton]

Most comics are written for people in their teens and early 20s.

 

You know those kiddie comics where all the superheroes are infants or whatever? That seems to be closer to what they're going for.

 

Which can be incredibly frustrating when they have guys like Edge and Jericho who are at their absoulute best working with more mature material. Even Miz and Morrison have shown on their web stuff that they can be incredibly funny playing off of grown up pop culture references.

[ampulator]

Personally, I don't mind the super-mainstream, super-traditional product. It's not that, it's the fact that it's dumbed down so much. Captain America is ridiculously mainstream and traditional, using the TEW definitions, and yet it's a mature enough story with realistic enough characters (personality wise) that I'm not repulsed by it -- instead I freaking LOVE Captain America.

Actually, Captain America... and Superman by extension, used to be very simplistic. It's just that, over the years, they modified their "formula" to be a bit broader. Both are the very definitions of Mainstream and Traiditional, but they aren't just THAT anymore. They got a bit more than that.

 

It's just that the WWE product is too narrow. They can afford to be broader.

[Linsolv]

Well, but I mean, you guys are like "Well they can't be getting risque just for us," when I dunno about you guys but I don't necessarily want a Deadpool or Thunderbolts, I mostly just want Captain America -- instead of Tiny Titans.

 

(Hoo -- I just revealed my secret! I know about comics!)

[angeldelayette]

I am sure that this has been brought up before but I am really enjoying the WWE's partnership with youtube. I don't get Smackdown with the certain channels I have and it's great to be able to watch the full show on youtube.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Most comics are written for people in their teens and early 20s.

 

You know those kiddie comics where all the superheroes are infants or whatever? That seems to be closer to what they're going for.

 

Which can be incredibly frustrating when they have guys like Edge and Jericho who are at their absoulute best working with more mature material. Even Miz and Morrison have shown on their web stuff that they can be incredibly funny playing off of grown up pop culture references.

 

I think thats a problem. The top guys all seem to be much better working with more teen/adult material. Only really Cena and Rey thrive on the PG stuff imo. Edge, Jericho, Punk, HHH etc. are all much better working in the TV 14 range imo.

[LoganRodzen]

Is this MITB PPV the first PPV since WM to have more than 4 matches announced? WWE can say they aren't worried about TNA, but they can't keep ignoring the fact that TNA puts on PPVs that have a full card. I don't know how anyone can afford a $50 PPV when the build to it was crap and the card is only half full. MITB actually has 6 matches announced - which oddly enough made me feel like WWE was actually TRYING to put together a full card.

 

The only way WWE will change how they produce their PPVs is if people stop buying them altogether. Which I'm convinced is starting to happen.

[MasterJ]

Is this MITB PPV the first PPV since WM to have more than 4 matches announced? WWE can say they aren't worried about TNA, but they can't keep ignoring the fact that TNA puts on PPVs that have a full card. I don't know how anyone can afford a $50 PPV when the build to it was crap and the card is only half full. MITB actually has 6 matches announced - which oddly enough made me feel like WWE was actually TRYING to put together a full card.

 

The only way WWE will change how they produce their PPVs is if people stop buying them altogether. Which I'm convinced is starting to happen.

 

The numbers are droping for WWE thats why these "Great" ideas of all gimmick PPV came in because Vince thought it would help buy rates but they have seen drops since last year by alot

[LoganRodzen]

I just marked out hard for Airbourne into an RKO. It wasn't "beyond epic", but it was cool as hell.

[Tha Black Phenom]

That was sick.