The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread May Contain Spoilers

Genadi · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't know. I mean, is it really worth the money to see her get hurt? I don't hate her that bad... I can always change the channel or turn the volume if she becomes unbearable. With Bischoff and Vince, for a long time, when they would come on, I would just fume. They woudln't even have to say or doing anything. I was already pissed off. I was ready to go ballistic.</div></blockquote> Bischoff during the WCW nWo run was some of the best heat of a non wrestler I've ever seen or experienced. People wanted to kill him.

supershot · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't know. I mean, is it really worth the money to see her get hurt? I don't hate her that bad... I can always change the channel or turn the volume if she becomes unbearable. </div></blockquote> I was maybe stretching it a little bit there lol. I wouldnt spend 2 grand for an hour long beatdown. I would definitely try to make it to the show if I was somehow lucky to have them be in my area. I think Edge spearing her would make for a nice Wrestlemania Moment <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

lazorbeak · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> You think it's a made up term when it's applied to anyone other than X-Pac. In that case, you are correct. But applied to X-Pac himself, it was true. He had "change-the-channel" or "go-away" heat. He was getitng stale (and when you thought Cena was stale...). he had been "X-Pac" since his Syxx days. He hadn't had a gimmick change. He was always doing the same things. Almost every match was the same thing. That wasn't the worst part, though. They tried to push him beyond his abilities. And it clearly, clearly, did not work. X-Pac was boring, but in aggravating way. He wasn't improving. I know he had neck issues, which is why he abandoned his high-flying style, but he never, ever made up for it through improving in other areas. Jushin Liger slowly went from being a high flyer to having a more solid technical base. Steve Austin went from an athletic blonde to a being a bad ass trash talker. X-Pac did change, but he regressed, and never made up for it. </div></blockquote> If it's just one guy then I'm still not sure how it's in any way a meaningful distinction, and while I definitely agree he was pushed beyond his abilities, he had heat his whole run. Maybe some fans did want him to just go but do you think the live crowd wouldn't react if a babyface took him down? I do remember raising an eyebrow during the McMahon/Helmsley era when Triple H was reluctant to face X-Pac, saying that Pac was "just as good" as him. Of course, it was all a ruse to fake dissension so DX could win an 8 man tag later in the night, and all was right with the world.

jbergey_2005 · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>This is completely false. Vickie is one of the most hated heels on the roster, and has been for some time. Talking about her "mic skills" and "charisma" ignore the fact that she was able to use said skills to get ginormously hated as a heel. So she must be doing something right. I mean look at any time she appears in front of a live crowd and gets bigger heat than anyone else on the roster. And yes, that is the same type of heat Bischoff had. X-Pac heat is a completely made up term. If somebody actually dropped ratings or hurt attendance, WWE wouldn't push them. And they wouldn't get huge reactions from crowds the way Vickie does on a weekly basis.</div></blockquote> I dont know how wrong he is. I dont watch Smackdown because I could not stand her. I am sure many others are like me. As soon as I hear her when she comes on RAW I either fast forward the DVR or turn the channel. Reminds me of that older lady on that Archie Bunker show "All in the Family." I turn that show before it even starts so I dont have to listen to that annoying intro despite the fact Ive heard its a really good show. With that said I am sure some people enjoy the hell out of booing her so maybe she does help ratings.

Self · February 10, 2011

I don't believe in X-Pac heat either. Or at the very least I believe it's far less widespread a concept than some people claim. Any heat is good heat when used correctly.

Vickie doesn't have the mic skills in an articulate sort of way, but she has... something. Something's working. Not that I think they need a strong authority figure to get a bad ass antihero babyface over. That's just repeating themselves. You need something fresh and exciting. Not rehashed stories.

I love Vickie.

Moe Hunter · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="juggaloninjalee" data-cite="juggaloninjalee" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>An unintentional injury isn't a big deal. A broken nose isn't that bad. Punk could go around wearing a mask and use it as part of his gimmick like what some wrestlers do when they break their thumb or ribs. D'Lo Brown running around with the chest protecter I felt helped his character a lot. This is wrestling and guys get hurt on accident.</div></blockquote> Meanwhile on SD!, they're running a fake "broken-nose causes great agony" storyline with Cody Rhodes. Punk having a real broken nose cheapens that.

Fantabulous · February 10, 2011

He didn't get negative heat with the crowd, but those Hornswoggle segments from late 2007 got X-Pac heat with the viewers because they usually died in the ratings. But I'm sure that's a mirage because X-Pac Heat doesn't exist.

juggaloninjalee · February 10, 2011

There are a few things I really want to comment on...

Randy Orton was one of those guys who was expected to be a mega star when he debuted. The videos they did when he was hurt I thought were entertaining. Him being in Evolution with Flair as his mouth piece was good as well. I dreamed of an Orton vs Cena Wrestlemania then. Cena was very entertaining to me when he was doing the rapper thing and using the chain as a weapon. I really felt like Orton and Cena were going to be something special. I still feel like Orton could be something special but only as a heel. He is a good face but no he isn't as great as the Rock or Austin.

Vickie Guerrero compared to Vince and Bischoff... There is no comparison. I don't mind Vickie but she gets Stephanie McMahon heel gm heat. Her voice is annoying. Her gimmick is alright though and being the gf of Dolph right now is interesting. It's better than the Edge relationship stuff. Vickie won't ever be as good as Vince or Bischoff as top authority heels though.

X-Pac heat is very real. X-Pac has the same gimmick for 6 years and 2 years into it he became very boring. Still to this day he pretty much is the same guy. Crotch chop crotch chop... spinning heel kick... bronco buster!!! I dunno his character just comes across as immature and like he never grew up. His character never evolved. I can be entertained by him but in very small doses. Not on a week by week basis.

Triple H could someday be a great authority heel like Vince and Bischoff once were. Time will tell though.

Self · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Fantabulous" data-cite="Fantabulous" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>He didn't get negative heat with the crowd, but those Hornswoggle segments from late 2007 got X-Pac heat with the viewers because they usually died in the ratings. But I'm sure that's a mirage because X-Pac Heat doesn't exist.</div></blockquote> I'd argue that people didn't turn off during Hornswaggle segments because they hated the performer, rather that they simply weren't interested in him and decided to see what else was on. Some probably hated him, but no one is claiming the X Division guys have X Pac heat when their matches dropped the Impact ratings. For that reason, and the lack of negative crowd reaction (the very definition of 'heat') I wouldn't say Hornswaggle had X Pac heat. Also, his character hasn't changed a bit since he debuted, and he got a huge babyface reaction in the Rumble match. Doesn't sound like the crowd hating the performer to me. I've been reading up on this on TV Tropes, and... Okay. It exists, but it's a massively overused term by smark wrestling fans (term used with love).

Fantabulous · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Self" data-cite="Self" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd argue that people didn't turn off during Hornswaggle segments because they hated the performer, rather that they simply weren't interested in him and decided to see what else was on. Some probably hated him, but no one is claiming the X Division guys have X Pac heat when their matches dropped the Impact ratings. For that reason, and the lack of negative crowd reaction (the very definition of 'heat') I wouldn't say Hornswaggle had X Pac heat. Also, his character hasn't changed a bit since he debuted, and he got a huge babyface reaction in the Rumble match. Doesn't sound like the crowd hating the performer to me. </div></blockquote> Hornswoggle segments died a far more brutal death in numbers than the X Division guys; you can't even begin to compare how badly one did over the other. Yeah, he got a huge reaction when he came out at the Rumble. I remember the Worm getting a monster pop too but I didn't see any push to see Scotty 2 Hotty in main events. Pops can be deceptive; sometimes you can't tell why the performer in question is getting them.

Teh_Showtime · February 10, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Moe Hunter" data-cite="Moe Hunter" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Meanwhile on SD!, they're running a fake "broken-nose causes great agony" storyline with Cody Rhodes. Punk having a real broken nose cheapens that.</div></blockquote> CM Punk doesn't take showers <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> and it fits Cody's gimmick, so I could see why he would be pressed over a broken nose.

lazorbeak · February 10, 2011

He didn't get negative heat with the crowd, but those Hornswoggle segments from late 2007 got X-Pac heat with the viewers because they usually died in the ratings. But I'm sure that's a mirage because X-Pac Heat doesn't exist.

Can you show me anything even approaching evidence of this though, or is it just that you didn't like it, and five friends didn't like it, and that meant that ratings were dropping like they were hot?

As Self said, he had real heat in the Rumble, more than the majority of the roster.

I'd argue that people didn't turn off during Hornswaggle segments because they hated the performer, rather that they simply weren't interested in him and decided to see what else was on. Some probably hated him, but no one is claiming the X Division guys have X Pac heat when their matches dropped the Impact ratings.

For that reason, and the lack of negative crowd reaction (the very definition of 'heat') I wouldn't say Hornswaggle had X Pac heat. Also, his character hasn't changed a bit since he debuted, and he got a huge babyface reaction in the Rumble match. Doesn't sound like the crowd hating the performer to me.

I've been reading up on this on TV Tropes, and... Okay. It exists, but it's a massively overused term by smark wrestling fans (term used with love).

Shocking that somebody did the exact same thing I did and came to the same conclusions! The more I looked at the term, the less useful it appears to be.

PeterHilton · February 10, 2011

I think the idea of 'X-Pac Heat' is very real; there's obviously going to be some fans that dislike a performer so much they begin reacting negatively to the worker and not the character itself.

And there's going to be some workers that get more of that than others. X-Pac did. More recently, the Nasty Boys in TNA did. And even more recently, Michael Cole gets some of that.

BUt it think the point lazobeak is getting that, is that there's never been any evidence that 'XPac Heat' has any real effect on anything. I mean..some promoters buy into it (net fans basically ran the Nasties off of TV). But has anyone ever really seen it have any effect? On ratings, buy rates, over-all popularity?

If I went to any wrestling message board and started a Michael Cole thread, I'd probably see a "well I hate him so much I don't tune in any more" response pretty quickly. Probably several. But has any of that actualy hurt RAW's ratings? And if the WWE thought it did, wouldn't it make them enormously stupid for keeping him in that position?

So yes...while 'XPac Heat' may be an actual thing among a small segment of the audience, does it matter? I'd say no. Like Self said,it's just as useful as any 'normal' heat because getting a reaction from the audience IS the performer's job. It has no effect on what a wrestler can be purposed for within a show. And -like most things when it comes to nets fans- it's blown completely out of proportion because they forget that they make up a tiny fraction of the over-all audience.

XPac heat exists, but its basically meaningless, becaue I have yet to see an example where a large enough segment of the audience rejected a character that it actually effected business.

PeterHilton · February 10, 2011

You know what does kill off a character that no one talks about? Apathy. If you dislike Cole or Vickie or XPac because of the performer themselves, and you still boo, then they're still doing their job. Rob Conway or Ted Dibiase comes out to the sound of crickets? not so much

ampulator · February 10, 2011

You know what does kill off a character that no one talks about? Apathy. If you dislike Cole or Vickie or XPac because of the performer themselves, and you still boo, then they're still doing their job. Rob Conway or Ted Dibiase comes out to the sound of crickets? not so much

That may be true, but no one really hates Ted. And you can't fault us for it... he may be boring, but he's not doing anything wrong to get booed.

PeterHilton · February 10, 2011

That may be true, but no one really hates Ted. And you can't fault us for it... he may be boring, but he's doing anything wrong to get booed.

Ok...all true.

But the point i was making is that fans 'not caring at all' is ten times worse than a tiny fraction of the audiecne booing because of XPac heat.

You're still getting a reaction.

Self · February 10, 2011

Ok...all true.

But the point i was making is that fans 'not caring at all' is ten times worse than a tiny fraction of the audiecne booing because of XPac heat.

You're still getting a reaction.

Totally.

1) X Pac comes out doing his schtick.

2) Fans boo "Argh ye bugger"

3) Before people switch off, Babyface beats him into oblivion

4) Fans cheer

5) Profit.

The only problem with X Pac heat is if you're oblivious to it, and promote the guy too much. Eve so, when Jerry Lawler kicks Michael Cole's ass it's going to be AWESOME, despite some of Cole's heat tasting X Pac-y. Nothing you can do with apathy except desperately find a way to make people care.

lazorbeak · February 10, 2011

I read some wrestling vet's commentaries (Lance Storm maybe), who talked about getting heat post-kayfabe, and they talked about JBL. The guy had never been anything other than a decent midcarder, but he lets out aspects of his personality fans are sure to hate and are publicly available (he's a financial consultant, he is conservative), combined with the fair or not impression that behind the scenes that he was a "bully" or difficult to work with, and he went from being an afterthought to being an extremely over heel. I hated when he beat Eddie Guerrero, but he was a heel, and being hated was his job.

So even if some of the fans were booing JBL because they didn't like the person, that's still real heat, in fact, I'd argue that's better heat than the standard post-kayfabe heat, where somebody like Jericho gets booed but a fraction of the crowd loves him and thinks he's the best ever.

I mean before kayfabe, every heel had what you could now describe as "X-Pac heat," because the fans hated the person, not the gimmick, as they rarely saw a difference between them.

The Lance Storm article, which also singles out Edge and the Mr. McMahon character, as well as Jericho's last heel run: http://www.stormwrestling.com/010111.html

PeterHilton · February 10, 2011

Well to be completely fair, there ARE people who will stop watching a program because they dislike a character so much.

And in smaller promotions, that matters. I mean..I brought up the Nasty Boy example because nets fans make up a bigger segment of their audience and a MUCH bigger segment of the Impact crowd..so when those guys started getting 'XPac heat' it actually did affect the presentation.

But to a company the size of the WWE? why would they care? You'd literally have to be so bad that millions of people turned off their TV sets te instant they saw you in order to make a blip of difference.

Fantabulous · February 10, 2011

XPac heat exists, but its basically meaningless, becaue I have yet to see an example where a large enough segment of the audience rejected a character that it actually effected business.

It didn't affect business per se but when Tacoma shat on the Booker T/Bagwell match, the very definition of 'X-Pac Heat', it caused Vince to change plans and nix the idea of WCW being kept a separate entity.

lazorbeak · February 10, 2011

It didn't affect business per se but when Tacoma shat on the Booker T/Bagwell match, the very definition of 'X-Pac Heat', it caused Vince to change plans and nix the idea of WCW being kept a separate entity.

But that's not X-Pac heat. I mean, that wasn't even heat, as it's usually defined, more like "dead heat." Instead of reacting to Buff Bagwell the heel, the crowd just chanted "boring" whenever he was in control. And since Booker at that time had attacked WWF guys, he was a heel too, so the crowd didn't pop when he fought back. Plus it went on for way, way too long.

That is totally different from X-Pac getting loud, negative reactions when he hit his signature moves, or getting "X-Pac sucks" chants directed at him when he was on-screen. Even if you believe the "crowd genuinely hated him, he was so stale" arguments, they were still booing Sean Waltman, not just complaining that what they were watching sucked.

This is what I mean by the expression being useless. Batista/Big Show on ECW, Lesnar/Goldberg at Wrestlemania, Trump/Rosie on Raw, these aren't "X-Pac heat" as it's generally defined, they're just train-wrecks that didn't go over with the crowd. But if people use the term interchangeably, does it have any meaning or usefulness?

Self · February 10, 2011

It didn't affect business per se but when Tacoma shat on the Booker T/Bagwell match, the very definition of 'X-Pac Heat', it caused Vince to change plans and nix the idea of WCW being kept a separate entity.

Actually the very definition of X-Pac Heat is... well... X-Pac.

Good Heat is when you're booed in a way that's constructive, where the crowd want to see you get your ass kicked. Bad Heat is when the crowd boo because they simply don't like what they're seeing. Booker/Buff got bad heat. The term X-Pac heat is so fiddly and subjective and often misused. If I were some kind of deity, my first act would be to stop people using it.

Purple Cowboy · February 10, 2011

So even if some of the fans were booing JBL because they didn't like the person, that's still real heat, in fact, I'd argue that's better heat than the standard post-kayfabe heat, where somebody like Jericho gets booed but a fraction of the crowd loves him and thinks he's the best ever.

To pull this out of context a bit, shouldn't that mean that Bubba the Love Sponge should still be with TNA? That guy might have brought the most "real heat" in recent memory just by being there!

Self · February 10, 2011

To pull this out of context a bit, shouldn't that mean that Bubba the Love Sponge should still be with TNA? That guy might have brought the most "real heat" in recent memory just by being there!

You could certainly do something with Bubba. Cut a promo. Be all "I'm Hulk's friend. I'm in TNA." Then have Jay Lethal or some other babyface kick the **** out of him. It's not building to a money match like a JBL would, but the fans would like the babyface more for it, perhaps buy some Jay Lethal t-shirts because he split the annoying git's head open.

PeterHilton · February 10, 2011

To pull this out of context a bit, shouldn't that mean that Bubba the Love Sponge should still be with TNA? That guy might have brought the most "real heat" in recent memory just by being there!

I touched on this a bit, but TNA (and smaller promotions like TNA) is a different situation than the WWE because they have smaller crowds where smarts make up a much bigger portion of the audience.

The Impact Zone made it nearly impossible to deal with Bubba as on on-screen character. I actually think tht eventually he could've become super useful as a full-fledged manager, but all of his off-screen antics and the way he behaved and talked about the product on his radio show made him a liability..and from what I've understood he was paid REALLY well so he just wasn't worth it.

EDIT: or to put it another way, if he could've 'turned off' the character on his radio showand stopped trying to work the fans (and the wrestlers backstage), I think Bubba is still in TNA.

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The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread May Contain Spoilers