The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[TakerNGN74]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="jjohns44" data-cite="jjohns44" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>^ Technically they did try to give him something different with Shelton's gimmick, but it didn't last long at all, it was Shelton and "his mama" but instead of Brodus just talking about her, Shelton would bring her to ringside.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I remember that but it wasnt his gimmick it was just something that the WWE was doing at the time. I cant remember why it happened and yeah they did try to do something different with this gimmick but he pretty much had the same gimmick just with his "mom" so I wouldnt consider it a gimmick change at all.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

I remember that but it wasnt his gimmick it was just something that the WWE was doing at the time. I cant remember why it happened and yeah they did try to do something different with this gimmick but he pretty much had the same gimmick just with his "mom" so I wouldnt consider it a gimmick change at all.

 

It was kind of the exact opposite really... Brodus tells them to call their moma's, while Shelton was crying to his moma, kind of, well.. I don't really understand or remember what the heck they were doing there to be honest.

[TakerNGN74]

It was kind of the exact opposite really... Brodus tells them to call their moma's, while Shelton was crying to his moma, kind of, well.. I don't really understand or remember what the heck they were doing there to be honest.

 

Ah I C but to be honest I didn't like it and if I dont like something at the time they are doing it then it doesnt really stick in my memory as something I would reference later on because like I said I didn't like it.

[milamber]

There were some really good matches on SD this week, even if they were rehashing NWO. Bad points: Not enough Sandow, no Cesaro and Ryback only got 2 jobbers again.

[Jaysin]

Look who got added to WWE's alumni section.

 

Holla, if ya hear me

[bigtplaystew]

http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/Kenn_Doane_Alleges_John_Cena_Had_An_Affair_With_A_Married_WWE_Diva.html

 

Ken Doane is an ass. I seriously hate him with all of this. Whether Cena did these things or not, Doane's being a dirty little rat. He's gonna screw him big in his divorce. Which, hey, if Cena was foolin around with his chick then I get that. Shoulda dotted his "i"s and crossed his "t"s if he didn't want to be in this position.

 

But why the hell does he now have to throw Victoria's name under the bus? Little tattle tail. Haven't messed up enough marriages and relationships yet? Dude stinks on ice.

 

Yes, Ken Doane, you were fired because Cena porked Mickie James, not because you were terrible and were never over.

[Hyde Hill]

It could also be Torrie Wilson instead of Victoria, which would make more sense as she and Kidman where in the process of breaking up at the time. I am inclined to believe him that he saw things like that from his perspective but don't really care.

[jbergey_2005]

Cena has never hidden the fact that hes willing to get some from whoever wanted to offer it. He was on Stern a few years back and never claimed to be the picky type.

[Remianen]

I dunno, i guess it just seems rather, crappy that if you're a champ, it's your bad luck to have a title. No matter how good, or how much the fans love ya, you have to take a backseat to Super Cena. I think that Cena must have some blackmail on old Vince, i can't explain it otherwise. I know he sells merch, but still. Same old Same old.

 

Until someone produces more revenue and positive press than Cena, he will continue to rule the roost. You want to blame someone? Blame the fans who eat this stuff up like starving Darfurians.

 

You think Bryan/Kane/Punk would outscore Show/Cena and the ending segment? In a WWE product set up, with realistic stats where Cena's not buried stats wise and Punk/Bryan aren't given stupid high overness?

 

Not even close.

 

So, in a WWE product set up with Cena given in-ring skills far exceeding his real skills, you mean? Remember, even in a WWE product setup, performance skills rule and Punk & Bryan & Jacobs have performance skills to burn. Cena? Eh, I don't know about that. Even in a WWE product setup, a worker with slightly less popularity but far superior in-ring skills will still outrate a worker with more popularity and inferior in-ring skills. Go load up TEW and try it. Given their roster, you have to give certain workers a certain level of popularity to even have them qualify as main eventers. So Cena's at A (not A* since that's storied territory only achieved by names like Austin, Rock, and Hogan), Punk is B/B+, Bryan is B/B-, and Kane is B- (you need B- to qualify as a main eventer in a Global promotion, unless the roster is depressed). Show would be B-, Big Johnny would MAYBE be C. Given how overbooked that cage match was ((-) the match was penalized due to booking decisions), and the limited skillsets of the workers involved (though I'm sure someone's going to say Show is 'best in the world' ), the 3-way match could've easily outdone the Cena match.

 

And I'm sorry but right now, AJ has far surpassed Trish in the same role. Trish's career didn't take off until she started wrestling. When she was a manager/valet (like AJ is right now), she was not this hot (oooo T&A, greatest tag team of their time?). And when she did start wrestling, she had over half a dozen good to great workers (Jazz, Moretti, Varon, Jacqueline, Greenwald, Lita, Gail, etc) to help build her and help her improve, something the current divas don't have (Beth, Nattie, and.....nobody else). Apples to apples.

 

Let's just hope AJ doesn't turn out like Serena (who? Exactly!).

[Hyde Hill]

That is more a flaw within TEW overrating wrestling skills even within an almost pure popularity product and the fact that the gap between Cena and Punk atm is bigger then A - B+ as perceived by the largest part of WWE fanbase. But that is getting more into TEW mechanics and the definition of overness etc then the actual debate.

[lazorbeak]

And I'm sorry but right now, AJ has far surpassed Trish in the same role. Trish's career didn't take off until she started wrestling. When she was a manager/valet (like AJ is right now), she was not this hot (oooo T&A, greatest tag team of their time?). And when she did start wrestling, she had over half a dozen good to great workers (Jazz, Moretti, Varon, Jacqueline, Greenwald, Lita, Gail, etc) to help build her and help her improve, something the current divas don't have (Beth, Nattie, and.....nobody else). Apples to apples.

 

Let's just hope AJ doesn't turn out like Serena (who? Exactly!).

 

This is true, but it also ignores that Trish's biggest angle as a manager was working with Vince in the whole lead-up to Shane vs. Vince at WM XVII, not managing a mediocre tag team that had a company named after them.

 

That is more a flaw within TEW overrating wrestling skills even within an almost pure popularity product and the fact that the gap between Cena and Punk atm is bigger then A - B+ as perceived by the largest part of WWE fanbase. But that is getting more into TEW mechanics and the definition of overness etc then the actual debate.

 

Really? I mean, Punk is the WWE champion and gets huge reactions. I guess I don't see this gaping chasm between the two.

[moon_lit_tears]

And I'm sorry but right now, AJ has far surpassed Trish in the same role. Trish's career didn't take off until she started wrestling. When she was a manager/valet (like AJ is right now), she was not this hot (oooo T&A, greatest tag team of their time?). And when she did start wrestling, she had over half a dozen good to great workers (Jazz, Moretti, Varon, Jacqueline, Greenwald, Lita, Gail, etc) to help build her and help her improve, something the current divas don't have (Beth, Nattie, and.....nobody else). Apples to apples.[

 

Trish was hot the moment she walked through the door, and knew how to work a crowd and the ring from the beginning. Yes she had other females around who were great too, but AJ isn't all that good in the ring, and her promos sucked until she turned into crazy AJ, is she a one trick pony? Honestly I don't find her all that interesting unless she's messing with Kane...That's just my opinion and I honestly don't care who likes her ..... I don't ...

[Astil]

Trish was hot the moment she walked through the door, and knew how to work a crowd and the ring from the beginning. Yes she had other females around who were great too, but AJ isn't all that good in the ring, and her promos sucked until she turned into crazy AJ, is she a one trick pony? Honestly I don't find her all that interesting unless she's messing with Kane...That's just my opinion and I honestly don't care who likes her ..... I don't ...

 

I think she was real good in ring as the FCW Woman's Champ...

[Moe Hunter]

The one question I have for people supporting Cena's eternal reign in the Main Event, constantly being pushed above every champion is...

 

How are the Punks, Bryans, Sheamuses of the world ever going to become "the man" if they're never given the opportunity to main event?

 

Cena won the belt at WM21 and immediately started Main Eventing. Other than his second place in the Rumble that year, he had never main evented a PPV before. But once he had the belt, he was constantly at the top of the card. They didn't have JBL or Triple H doing non-title matches above him all the time.

[djthefunkchris]

The one question I have for people supporting Cena's eternal reign in the Main Event, constantly being pushed above every champion is...

 

How are the Punks, Bryans, Sheamuses of the world ever going to become "the man" if they're never given the opportunity to main event?

 

Cena won the belt at WM21 and immediately started Main Eventing. Other than his second place in the Rumble that year, he had never main evented a PPV before. But once he had the belt, he was constantly at the top of the card. They didn't have JBL or Triple H doing non-title matches above him all the time.

 

When I started to reply to this I ended up with one of my famous huge posts, that my actual reply would have been lost in. So I'm trying to simplify it best I can.

 

You can't force someone down people's throats to make others like them more.

 

This thing about Cena is unique, and it's a shame no one wants to see it. He rises above all the hate for him, and kids eat it up. The more people boo him, the more the "next" generation will love him for being able to take it. It's not "cool" to like him, yet it's "very cool" for the next generation to like him. The more aggressively people are against him, the more he proves himself. It's a losing battle trying to de-throne him, at least in that sense. He is and always will be the biggest spectacle in modern wrestling, the most talked about (by far), and yes, the most "interesting". Resistance if futile.

 

You want to dethrone him, quit booing and start cheering for the people you want over him. Be silent when he's on live, cheer for others when they are on live. The more reactions he gets, good or bad, will just make him thrive. The louder, the bigger he becomes. Every time there is a "Let's go Cena/Cena Sucks" battle in the crowd, it becomes clear how important he is... as one tries to be louder then the other, it becomes even bigger.

[lazorbeak]

When I started to reply to this I ended up with one of my famous huge posts, that my actual reply would have been lost in. So I'm trying to simplify it best I can.

 

You can't force someone down people's throats to make others like them more.

 

This thing about Cena is unique, and it's a shame no one wants to see it. He rises above all the hate for him, and kids eat it up. The more people boo him, the more the "next" generation will love him for being able to take it. It's not "cool" to like him, yet it's "very cool" for the next generation to like him. The more aggressively people are against him, the more he proves himself. It's a losing battle trying to de-throne him, at least in that sense. He is and always will be the biggest spectacle in modern wrestling, the most talked about (by far), and yes, the most "interesting". Resistance if futile.

 

You want to dethrone him, quit booing and start cheering for the people you want over him. Be silent when he's on live, cheer for others when they are on live. The more reactions he gets, good or bad, will just make him thrive. The louder, the bigger he becomes. Every time there is a "Let's go Cena/Cena Sucks" battle in the crowd, it becomes clear how important he is... as one tries to be louder then the other, it becomes even bigger.

 

I'm sorry, that's just circular reasoning at its finest. "Cena has to be treated special from everyone else because he's so unique" is a closed loop. Cena is in this position precisely because you absolutely can force someone down the audience's throat. The Cena boos start just after the period Hunter mentions, when Cena in short order was put over Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels, all in a lead-up to his match against Triple H, where Triple H was nominally the face for everyone over 18. It's completely the product of WWE being able to push whomever they want, and using the positive and negative reaction of the fan-base accordingly.

 

I don't think anybody's talking about Cena going on another break to shoot a movie or re-knit his bones, Wolverine-style, but how does it hurt to showcase someone else as the featured attraction, especially on a b-list PPV? I mean would WWE have been the same if Austin doesn't get hurt in '99 and Rock never gets a run as the promotion's top babyface because Austin is undisputed #1 forever? Wouldn't that get old?

[bigtplaystew]

They can't push anyone they want though and make them as popular ass Cena. If they could have 12 John Cenas they would. But they don't. The have ONE John Cena, and everything else (except maybe punk) is second best.

 

They have other faces like Orton and Shamus, but do u think that if John Cena retired tomorrow that WWE wouldn't feel a massive loss financially? That Shamus would be the face you see on Wheaties boxes all around the world?

 

Those other guys can't just take his place. John Cena is like Austin, Rock, Hogan, etc in that rare "next-level" quality of face that just flat out draws money wherever he goes. ther will be someone after him. Is it punk? I don't know. I analogize Cena to Hogan like I do Punk to someone like Bret Hart. Bret Hart was a widely successful worker and a significant draw, but when the company didn't have "That guy" he didn't exactly fill the role and take the company to new heights or anything. even though I like Bret Hart better, Hogan is Hogan.

 

WWE can make anyone their top guy, but can that guy be top draw?

[djthefunkchris]

/nod. As much as I try to grasp the concept, it never makes any kind of sense to me. Sure, you can push someone to the moon, and get them to a certain level, but you can't get them to a level like that. That's like saying "Anyone could have been Elvis Presley, if they had the same songs!" "Anyone could have been Michael Jackson, if they had the same moves!" etc. NO... they can't.

 

You have Hulk Hogan, and now John Cena. People hate both of them, but it doesn't make the fact go away. I hated Hogan's character, found him to be full of it... like in as I couldn't believe his character, and I don't really like Cena's character. Doesn't matter what I like though... It matters what the Mass's like. Just as there are people that hate Elvis and Michael, it didn't hurt their sells, the amount of people that would go to their concerts, etc. It probably helped them more then hurt them. My dad HATED Elvis with a passion. My mother was absolutely crazy about him. I don't really care for Elvis, but I liked Michael Jackson, my wife is opposite... Doesn't matter, their status stands.

 

Going back to Hogan and Cena, there I said it in the same sentence (again and again). You have Hogan and Cena, then people like Rock and Austin, then people like HBK, Punk, etc.. Then people like Bret Hart and Daniel Bryan. Like it or not, that's how it is (at least right now). I don't like it, I would rather it be different. It doesn't matter what "I" want though, if I can't see what's in front of my face, why bother looking anywhere else.

 

If I had my way, Jimmy Snuka would be in Hogans shoe's, and Punk in Cena's. I been a fan of Punk since he stepped on WWE ECW, and Punk is the reason I check out indie shows on Youtube... as well as the only reason I knew about Brian Danielson before he was on WWE, and Summer of Punk wasn't a new thing to me when it happened on Raw. I choose to cheer for my favorites, as it's all I can do.

 

If you "choose" to ignore everything, all the links in this very thread leading to facts, just ignore it and choose to believe the world is wrong, and you are right... Well, then someone like me is just using circular reasoning.

 

I can't make the best hamburger, but I can make one you might like best. That doesn't make me the best hamburger maker in the world, it just means I make the best one for you. (Edit, in case the analogy isn't obvious: CM Punk isn't the best in the world, but he is the best in the world to me.)

[lazorbeak]

They can't push anyone they want though and make them as popular ass Cena. If they could have 12 John Cenas they would. But they don't. The have ONE John Cena, and everything else (except maybe punk) is second best.

 

They have other faces like Orton and Shamus, but do u think that if John Cena retired tomorrow that WWE wouldn't feel a massive loss financially? That Shamus would be the face you see on Wheaties boxes all around the world?

 

Those other guys can't just take his place. John Cena is like Austin, Rock, Hogan, etc in that rare "next-level" quality of face that just flat out draws money wherever he goes. ther will be someone after him. Is it punk? I don't know. I analogize Cena to Hogan like I do Punk to someone like Bret Hart. Bret Hart was a widely successful worker and a significant draw, but when the company didn't have "That guy" he didn't exactly fill the role and take the company to new heights or anything. even though I like Bret Hart better, Hogan is Hogan.

 

WWE can make anyone their top guy, but can that guy be top draw?

 

Of course they'd lose some money if they lost a major draw, the same way they lost money when they talked Savage into color commentary and Hogan into retirement. But is the only other option really putting Bret Hart defending the title in the semi-main while Hogan wrestles a big monster heel in a cage something people wanted in 1993? I just don't see why it has to be that way, especially since Cena isn't in the physical state Hogan was at the time.

 

Re: DJ

No idea what this:

 

If you "choose" to ignore everything, all the links in this very thread leading to facts, just ignore it and choose to believe the world is wrong, and you are right... Well, then someone like me is just using circular reasoning.

 

has to do with anything. What's being ignored? Why is "choose" in quotation marks? Is someone not really choosing something? What links leading to facts? Who is even saying that the world is wrong?

 

Cena was given the ball and ran with it in 2005 because everyone else was either injured (Austin), unavailable (Rock), or lacked some piece necessary to be the top guy. And so he was given a near continuous 15 month run as champion that made the public see him as the face of the franchise. It wouldn't have been possible if Cena was constantly defending his title in the midcard while Triple H and Undertaker worked every main event against one another in some combination.

[moon_lit_tears]

Cena is a main eventer. Just that simple.

 

LIke others have said..there are guys who are good, but not on Cenas level. Yes he gets boos when he comes out, but that's what makes it special. He's the guy they love to hate. Those guys who are sitting in the stands booing him are the same guys who buy his stuff. I'm not a huge Cena fan. I haven't been from the beginning, but I respect his work. He's good in the ring and on the mic. He's got the attention of the younger crowd and lets face it THAT is the demographic the WWE needs to focus on.

 

I just don't see the argument that Cena shouldn't be on the main event. Do I like seeing it all the time? Sure. The matches aren't boring, nor are they repetitive. They make them fresh and fun to watch.

[Hive]

First Vader and now Sid Vicious? Awesome!

 

Could someone tell me how that match was? I'd rather not have to go several pages of Cena-gossip...

[moon_lit_tears]

First Vader and now Sid Vicious? Awesome!

 

Could someone tell me how that match was? I'd rather not have to go several pages of Cena-gossip...

 

 

You have to youtube it. The match was great.

[Hyde Hill]

They can't push anyone they want though and make them as popular ass Cena. If they could have 12 John Cenas they would. But they don't. The have ONE John Cena, and everything else (except maybe punk) is second best.

 

They have other faces like Orton and Shamus, but do u think that if John Cena retired tomorrow that WWE wouldn't feel a massive loss financially? That Shamus would be the face you see on Wheaties boxes all around the world?

 

Those other guys can't just take his place. John Cena is like Austin, Rock, Hogan, etc in that rare "next-level" quality of face that just flat out draws money wherever he goes. ther will be someone after him. Is it punk? I don't know. I analogize Cena to Hogan like I do Punk to someone like Bret Hart. Bret Hart was a widely successful worker and a significant draw, but when the company didn't have "That guy" he didn't exactly fill the role and take the company to new heights or anything. even though I like Bret Hart better, Hogan is Hogan.

 

WWE can make anyone their top guy, but can that guy be top draw?

 

Lol couple of days ago I was running an analogy of the current top WWE superstars with the "next" generation top guys in my head for fun. Cena = Nash, Punk = Michaels, Bryan = Bret, Sheamus = Hall, Orton = Taker, Show = Sid.

 

Off course the analogies aren't perfect but they are very similar.

[djthefunkchris]

Re: DJ

No idea what this:

 

 

 

has to do with anything. What's being ignored? Why is "choose" in quotation marks? Is someone not really choosing something? What links leading to facts? Who is even saying that the world is wrong?

At various stages of this thread, there have been links directly to things such as ratings, revenue and income, PPV income, etc. that could directly or indirectly effect who they choose to be the top guy. Seems like that's all thrown out the window whenever anything related to reasonable assumptions can be made. Far as why I chose to put quotations around it, I honestly try hard to make my posts emphasize how I am saying things (the emotional state of it), and it never seems to come off right. Things like capitalizing when I'm trying to emphasize a point, quotations marks to be a bit indifferent about it, for example, the statement: May or may not have even seen the links, would have garnered what I was trying to say better in the "choose" quote, but didn't think of it at the time.

Cena was given the ball and ran with it in 2005 because everyone else was either injured (Austin), unavailable (Rock), or lacked some piece necessary to be the top guy. And so he was given a near continuous 15 month run as champion that made the public see him as the face of the franchise. It wouldn't have been possible if Cena was constantly defending his title in the midcard while Triple H and Undertaker worked every main event against one another in some combination.

 

JBL just come off a 10 month reign, before Cena's 9 month reign, and he didn't blow up like Cena. Also, the point you just made, with people like Austin injured, Rock unavailable, injuries etc. Not to mention someone joy-riding his championships (ECW and WWE) away. Cena was injured, and people had their chances to step up as well, but it didn't happen, not like it happened for Cena. That's my point as well, your just using it in a different way, same point though. The thing is, the title's have never been "The biggest card" on every PPV.

 

Cena was over both of them (HHH and Undertaker) by 2006, more popular, more merchandise selling, etc. Of course he would be headlining... If someone was over Cena now, they would be headlining or feuding with him.

 

Before Cena was as over as the other's, he didn't headline. After he was (and he really was, he was sky-rocketing when he slapped Kurt Angle backstage at No Way Out 2004), of course he would be headlining. By the time he got the title, it was well over-due, if anything. The long run might have been to solidify his position, but he was already the most over guy on the roster at that time (available, as you said). He was already outselling everyone but Rock and Austin in merchandise, etc.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Cena gets a full decade more in as Main Eventer, before retirement, or falling down the card occurs. It's not like he's a decade over the others... I mean, Punk and Daniels are 31, sheamus is 34, and Cena is 35. He can do this til' he's 45 without a problem, if he doesn't have too many injuries. He hasn't even had the title half as long as Hulk Hogan had it... but he's had it longer then both Rock and Austin.

 

Buddy Rogers was 40, Bruno held the title for... You don't even want to know the answer for that one. Ivan Koloff, Pedro Morales, Billy Graham, Bob Backlund... Main evented for long periods of time.

 

The thing is, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there are no rules for how long someone can be the Main Event. It doesn't matter if I want them to be or not, as long as they are proving to be valuable as that guy, they will be.

 

The biggest point here is what I already said.

I can't make the best hamburger, but I can make one you might like best. That doesn't make me the best hamburger maker in the world, it just means I make the best one for you. (Edit, in case the analogy isn't obvious: CM Punk isn't the best in the world, but he is the best in the world to me.)

 

I'm not saying Cena is the best guy for the job for you, or even for me... but he is for the rest of the people, so it doesn't matter what we want, we aren't going to get it unless something changes.

 

Back to the point you were making. My reply to is was already made:

Sure, you can push someone to the moon, and get them to a certain level, but you can't get them to a level like that. That's like saying "Anyone could have been Elvis Presley, if they had the same songs!" "Anyone could have been Michael Jackson, if they had the same moves!" etc. NO... they can't.

It's not about what they are given, but what they do with what they are given. IF they don't get to that level (and they are given more then enough opportunity to get their), then it's all on them far as I'm concerned... not what part of the card they are on.

 

I'm actually enjoying this debate, I don't know why... I honestly would like nothing more then Punk or Bryan to go over Cena in a big way (I mean, OVER, not necessarily a match, but in overness)... but I would like it to happen without Cena actually dropping the ball or something. I want it to be them reaching even higher levels, if that makes sense.

[Rone Rivendale]

The thing is they HAD the next Cena in The Miz. They pushed him to the moon and the fans loved to hate the guy. He had the big title. He held onto it for a while. He beat Cena at WM. He was on the talk shows and was doing all the other promotional stuff and was doing an excellent job at it. He has tons of charisma to spare.

 

And then they just stopped pushing him. And I don't know WHY. And he has now lost every single bit of momentum he had back then. And I don't see the Marine 3 being the way to bring him back up either.