The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[FINisher]

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Triple-Hs-pants-go-pee-pee.jpg

 

lol. Pee'd his pants it seems.

[Teh_Showtime]

awesome ref reaction

 

[Minarin]

The title run was a joke but then we had that mini fued with punk and then he proved he had character with Kane.

 

Thing is we don't know why Dolph is losing. They have a reason even if its a bad reason. Maybe there's a character change planned.

 

The ref's face is awesome but the move shows how well Cena and punk trust each other. Things could have gone wrong and Cena's already had neck surgery once.

[djthefunkchris]

Nobody is saying he was going to be fired but it's obvious that he was treated as a joke during his entire reign including losing the title and he only looks semi credible after WM and he's actually allowed to look dominant against Sheamus for most of their rematch.

 

From the time (the 100% heel) Cole started making fun of DB, it was totally obvious that DB was going to be pushed as high as possible, at least to me. I said so in this very thread at the time. He's never going to "carry" the company, and I know you know that, but I don't think WWE had any plans for him to be lower in the card then he is now... In fact, If I had to put money on it, I would say at the time WWE had bigger plans for him then they do now. In my opinion, the "cheers" for him only helped switch him from being a heel, to the comical character he is now. Don't get me wrong, at the time of that particular incident, I was completely in agreement, this is only a hindsight opinion.

 

All this "He was treated as a joke", to me is just people confusing the reasons of why this or that was done. Looking back, its obvious they had big plans for him, no matter the outcry.

 

It's like Ziggler right now.... People tend to leave out who he is losing to, in favor of the fact that he lost.... as if he winning is how he has won popularity up til' now. To me, losing every week on the show is better then not being on the show period. Having him lose against Main Event material isn't going to hurt him since he is effectively only midcard status. I'd rather him lose to Cena, Sheamus, or Ryback, then to have him barely pull out a win against someone lower down the card, or an easy win against someone no one cares about.

 

He's rubbing elbows with the right people, he's not going to carry the show either, but he's going to be a mainstay if nothing else, for making everyone else look incredibly good.

 

Barely losing to someone over you > Beating someone much lower, or barely beating someone just under you. Seems to be the way WWE has done things for well... For a very long time.

[djthefunkchris]

It didnt do anything for him. He lost in 18 seconds at WM and the backlash by the fans forced him into the WWE title picture. His actual booking before that did little for him.

 

Just to be clear, you are talking about when he lost the WHC to Sheamus, right?

[DaMegaFish]

I am in the camp of hoping we don't have to suffer a Taker vs Punk match. I'm going to step out and say that I would actually be happier if Taker wasn't in Mania. Not to mention this match would basically be WWE saying they don't have any actual ideas for the guys which would be a shame considering Punk has been such a focal point over the past year. A guy who isn't around all year should get forced in, especially since everybody knows at this point he is going over.

 

Speaking of not being around, I love that Rock's schedule is basically he does wrestling when he isn't busy with his other stuff, but he is the champion of wrestling. (at least in most peoples eyes) It makes the WWE look bad IMO that their title is held by a guy who does it in his free time like a hobby.

 

And going on from that, Rock vs Cena is the main event again? Cool I guess? I'm sure it'll be a fine match, but it makes last years match up that much less special. Of course, providing something stupid doesn't happen and Cena gets a win, it's fine. Last night's RAW was a good step in making Cena look good actually again. As much as I don't love Cena, I assuredly don't hate him either, and he needs to look strong for WWE imo. For the better part of my past memories lately he has been getting beaten left and right. Yeah, he won the Rumble, but how many major singles matches has he won in the past year or year and a half?

[Teh_Showtime]

. For the better part of my past memories lately he has been getting beaten left and right. Yeah, he won the Rumble, but how many major singles matches has he won in the past year or year and a half?

 

W vs Brock Lesnar at extreme rules PPV

W to win money in the bank

wrestled Punk to a draw (double pin) at Night of Champions

Lost to Johnny Ace via Big Show interference

W over Big Show in a cage

L to Ziggler in ladder match via AJ interference

W over Ziggler in a cage match despite multiple finishers and interference (and the week before)

W in Royal Rumble

[Tha Black Phenom]

It's like Ziggler right now.... People tend to leave out who he is losing to, in favor of the fact that he lost.... as if he winning is how he has won popularity up til' now. To me, losing every week on the show is better then not being on the show period. Having him lose against Main Event material isn't going to hurt him since he is effectively only midcard status. I'd rather him lose to Cena, Sheamus, or Ryback, then to have him barely pull out a win against someone lower down the card, or an easy win against someone no one cares about.

 

He's rubbing elbows with the right people, he's not going to carry the show either, but he's going to be a mainstay if nothing else, for making everyone else look incredibly good.

 

Barely losing to someone over you > Beating someone much lower, or barely beating someone just under you. Seems to be the way WWE has done things for well... For a very long time.

 

/nod. As he keeps losing to guys like that, it won't be that much of a stretch when he does start scoring a victory over some of them. Before you know it, he'll cash in. (or after he cashes in maybe) Ziggler still has it better than Bryan and Punk on his first MITB run.

[bigtplaystew]

I'm in the camp that believes that Daniel Bryan got over for two reasons.

 

1. His extremely catchy catchphrase.

 

2. Being one of the most exciting wrestlers in the world.

 

He was booked as a loser during his entire WHC reign but he was able to get over as a face while playing a heel thanks to the fact that his two main opponents were a injured Mark Henry who while having an epic bad-ass run had to removed from the title picture and The Big Show who doesn't work that well as a face against smaller opponents. Bryan was the only guy left to cheer over.

 

Yea DB is definitely one of the best workers in the world. He's been everywhere competing and it's made him an incredibly intelligent and adaptable worker. Guys these days just don't get around like DB did. Him putting in that time helped him become that guy who can get over in any situation. Be it on a crappy one hour TV show where he's running around with barrels or at the grandest stage of them all. The dude just understands how to work.

[DaMegaFish]

W vs Brock Lesnar at extreme rules PPV

W to win money in the bank

wrestled Punk to a draw (double pin) at Night of Champions

Lost to Johnny Ace via Big Show interference

W over Big Show in a cage

L to Ziggler in ladder match via AJ interference

W over Ziggler in a cage match despite multiple finishers and interference (and the week before)

W in Royal Rumble

 

So 3 singles wins, 1 draw, a couple losses and two matches that aren't singles matches.

 

You can disagree, that's fine, I still don't think he's looked all that strong in the past year or a little longer.

[Tha Black Phenom]

He just hasn't looked as strong as in previous years. In which each year prior he's held the WWE title at some point. He still came across over the past year as a top threat in the roster that many can't go over. Most if not all of his losses were dusty finishes, the only one who pinned Cena clean all year was The Rock.

 

This only strengthens the idea that there's more to looking strong than wins and losses.

[milamber]

I have no problem with the way Bryan was handled. He was made to look like the ultimate underdog before getting an ego and going crazy when things went wrong. Ziggler is having a ton of good matches with guys considered above him in the roster while mostly losing (Cesaro too lately) and his cash in attempts are amusing but he should be beating midcard faces every so often to look strong to the marks.

 

As for Miz, he sucks on Miz TV. He's like an unfunny third wheel. Either give him a decent script or do the angle another way.

 

Kudos to Cena for taking the pile driver and Punk for making it look better than a tombstone but still safe.

[bigtplaystew]

So 3 singles wins, 1 draw, a couple losses and two matches that aren't singles matches.

 

You can disagree, that's fine, I still don't think he's looked all that strong in the past year or a little longer.

 

Yes... Cena hasn't had a great year. It's not only known but a crucial point in the character's storyline thus far this year. What is your point?

[The Final Countdown]

Great main event, but this show killed any and all interest I may have had in this year's Mania. I was hoping for some kind of double pin or something in the main event, so it could be Rock vs. Cena vs. Punk at Mania. But that's dead, and instead we get a rehash of last year. No thanks.

 

The big three matches, Brock vs. HHH, Cena vs. Rock and presumably Punk vs. Taker are all matches I just don't care about. Two of the three are rematches of PPV main events that have happened within the last year, and there is zero doubt about the winner in any of the three.

 

Oh well. As far as I'm concerned, Punk vs. Cena was the main event of Mania. There's no way Cena vs. Rock is going to top it anyway.

[Greylocke]

Yeah, if there's one bad thing I can say about that RAW main event, it's the fact that I can't imagine Cena and Rock to be able to top it at Wrestlemania. That was a WM main event-worthy match right there.

[bigtplaystew]

I felt they should have put Punk and Cena in the maine vent at WM. I always felt the main event should be your two best stars, not the outside attraction junk. But maybe they legit feel Cena/Rock 2 is a better draw.

 

At this point Punk/Cena would be less "special" because they feuded for a huge chunk of the past year. But they'll go at each other again.

[crownsy]

I felt they should have put Punk and Cena in the maine vent at WM. I always felt the main event should be your two best stars, not the outside attraction junk. But maybe they legit feel Cena/Rock 2 is a better draw.

 

At this point Punk/Cena would be less "special" because they feuded for a huge chunk of the past year. But they'll go at each other again.

 

I think they kinda got stuck. Rock talked last week about how there was this 3 year plan for his initial return, and how he wanted to work a program with cena.

 

I think it's clear the plan was to have him beat Cena, which would send Cena into a downward spiral and then have Cena redeem himself at "twice in a lifetime"

 

The problem for them now is I don't think they've done a very good job presenting Cena as "shattered" or spiraling down after WM. It's like they panicked out of that with lesnar.

 

I thought they would book lesnar to go over strong, and then book the whole "John Cena needs to find himself!" story over the next 6-8 months, leading to his resurgence at RR and going to mania.

 

But they seemed to go luke warm on that, gave him that stupid lesnar win, and even though he certainly hasn't looked quite as super cena as years past, this whole "no one thought I could win the rumble!!" promo stichk he's been on has seemed so out of place because it's like....we all thought you would win John...you haven't really had THAT bad a time since mania.

 

SO my long winded point is, they didn't commit to this storyline, but now they seem stuck with it.

 

On a side note, even though it will never happen, would thier be any better way to cement CM punk as the heel of your company for the next ten years than to give him a win over taker via chair shot/ ect finish?

 

It would need to be a pretty horrific beatdown leading to the win, not interested in a "oh, an outside distraction gave me a cheap win!"

 

I'm talking just an epic level beat down that finally does the streak in. Again, it will never happen, but you talk about epic level heel heat for punk for the next decade? that would do it. doubly so if he cheated to keep the new "streak" alive every year until your next "face of the company guy" won and essentially goes "that was for you taker!".

[Stennick]

Everyone saying it should be Punk vs. Cena at the Wrestlemania main event are clearly not businessmen. Last years Wrestlemania did more money than any wrestling even in HISTORY. You would be a fool not to follow that up right now while you can. This Rock thing is not going to last forever and on top of that there isn't a business in the world that should say "I know we made more money doing this than anything ever before but lets completely change that". Look at Apple for Gods sake they have been doing the same thing for nearly six years now with the iPhone and why? Because it makes them a stupid amount of money everytime they roll it out.

 

This is the same company that was dropping into the 2's in the ratings earlier this year. If there was ever a time they did need a boost from the outside this is it. Sure they could have spent the year building up Ziggler and Punk as the future of this business and had them going at guys like HHH, Taker, Brock, Rock and Cena at Wrestlemania but they didn't and now its too late. There is no way on earth you do Punk vs. Cena at Wrestlemania based on a hunch that people want to see that over Cena vs. Rock, especially since you just did Cena vs. Punk for half the year. Especially since as much as some of you love Punk he's not John Cena. He's not Mr. Make a Wish, he's not Mr. The only WWE star besides Taker people can name.

 

It would be nice to live in a hypothetical world where the WWE is still this edgy, risk taking, rebellious company but thats not the case and hasn't been the case for over a decade now. Punk vs. Cena is not Wrestlemania's main event nor should it be and there is no reason for it to be next years main event either.

[The Final Countdown]

Stennick, how would you have felt about Punk vs. Cena vs. Rock? Do you think Punk being added to the match would have detracted from Cena's "redemption" and hurt the buyrate?

[Stennick]

I think that might have been a way to go. It wouldn't hurt the buyrate because the hype could still be around Cena, Rock and that other guy super casuals have never heard of. I think it would have been an excellent rub for Punk and would be better than losing to Taker. Now you take those nearly 500 days he was champion and he loses at the Royal Rumble, he loses at Elimination Chamber and he's going to lose at Wrestlemania. So they're saying "you can barely beat John Cena and you beat up on mid carders but you can't beat Rock or Taker". I think it sends a bad message. I think it would have been an excellent way for Punk to truly hit that level. Not too mention they did a horrible job of telling any sort of redemption story on Cena. They weren't going to have their top guy spend the year losing and doubting himself as evidenced by them cutting Brock's legs out from underneath him right away with that Cena win just weeks after he lost to The Rock.

 

As far as cementing Punk as a heel, you don't want to cememt Punk as a heel. Punk is a heel because they had Rock returning, they had Cena, they had Orton, they had to do something. However Punk is clearly at his best when doing the voice of the voiceless schtick that got him hot in the first place. When you have the Shield, specifically Ambrose, you got Ziggler and you got guys like Rhodes, Sandow and Cesero I don't think you need to appoint Punk as the future of all heels and using Punk as a heel for the next ten years is a mistake.

 

Next year I'm sure its all but certain we will get Brock vs. Rock at the main event of Wrestlemania. I think its a mistake since a lot of Brock's "aura" as a UFC super fighter bad ass is gone. By that time it will be what three or four years since Brock has fought in the UFC and by that time that aura will be replaced with "sickly, beaten up, WWE entertainer". Instead of doing Hollywood's top action star vs. UFC Champion. Not too mention its impossible to retain any sort of momentum when he shows up for a few weeks and then is gone for six months and that goes for both guys.

[crownsy]

I agree that he's at his best doing the voice of the voiceless thing, but the problem is it isn't sustainable.

 

He essentially has to murder the other person's gimmick to make that gimmick work. As we saw, Cena can survive that and it works because he's so over with his fanbase. on the other hand, it pretty much destroyed del rio & ziggler's heel heat when he started to point out how stupid they were in his "pipe bomb" promos. Not that either guy was super over heel heat wise, but once Punk started tearing up the hole in their characters, it just made the audience laugh at them, and not in a good way.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think it's clear the plan was to have him beat Cena, which would send Cena into a downward spiral and then have Cena redeem himself at "twice in a lifetime"

 

The problem for them now is I don't think they've done a very good job presenting Cena as "shattered" or spiraling down after WM. It's like they panicked out of that with lesnar.

 

Pretty much this

 

How can you sell Cena as being down on his luck and needing to redeem himself when:

 

1. He still wins 95% of his matches

 

2. He has changed nothing in his character

 

3. He is still treated as the greatest wrestler ON AIR. When the commentators mention that he doesn't have the title but is still the best, he wins superstar of the year despite having his "Worst year ever"

 

Nobody will buy into a story when you aren't even consistent with when you want to tell it.

[Fleisch]

I can see the argument about last years Wrestlemania with Rock v. Cena as the highest grossing PPV ever etc... but that was when it was billed as a once in a lifetime match. Not everyone is going to buy Wrestlemania to watch the exact same match as last years. Last years actual match was mediocre AT BEST. It wasn't an earth shattering, holy s**t, hold for hold classic, Austin v Rock had better matches, hell Ken Shamrock vs. Rock matches were better.

 

Does anyone think this will get more buys than their Cena v. Rock "once in a lifetime" Wrestlemania? I think this years buyrate will fall waaaaay short of the 1.2m that Wrestlemania 23 did - which is 2nd highest grossing (Rock v Cena last year only got 17,000 more buys than that). It may hit the 1m mark and gain a top 5 spot but as for outdoing the top two buyrates ever? I don't see it happening, but then I could be wrong - it's been known to happen once or twice

 

The one thing I have loved about Wrestlemania is the Main event is usually different each year (Wrestlemania 15 & 17 are the only other 2 I can think where the main event was the same as each other). The only difference this year is the title is actually being defended in the main event - by the two guys who headlined last years. I'm not saying Cena v. Punk or Rock v. Punk would draw better, but I think Cena v. Rock v. Punk had the chance to. Instead of having Cena beat Punk on Raw, end it in a draw play on the fact Cena still couldn't beat Punk, and build on the fact that Rock has beaten both of them, this would drum up interest in the match, will Cena overcome the 2 men he has never beaten and win the big one? Will Punk somehow cheat both Cena and Rock? Will Rock retain? Now all we've got is Rock v. Cena with Cena no doubt going over.

[Teh_Showtime]

Giving Rock the title was a mistake and never should have even been an option. Nothing says looking to the future like having a guy who wrestles 4 matches in 10 years beat the top of the current roster while everyone that he brought (back) is watching him defeat the active wrestlers.

[hellboy2]

i am not up to date on WWE at all just what mates tell me and occasional looks on youtube, but any chance of Punk being a special guest referee, for Cena vs Rock, and i will admit i bought Wrestlemania last year for Rock vs Cena

 

but i am easily influenced i bought WM 25 (i think) for Miz and Morrison vs Carlito and Primo, but nobody told me at the time about it being on their website

 

but i got to see Rey Misterio in a Joker themed attire(i think), in a match that lasted half a minute